Picture Thoughts

[Tom of Iowa2]

If there is a pic of Goerner's deadlift..good enough.

Regarding the 1400 on the back?IF it was true?Again that people believe it and retell it is not conclusive to me.But if true.....

Kaz and most of that era were not anything like the guys are now with the Yoke walk.As powerful as he is..?not his(or anyone from that era)event.

Watch the tapes from just a few years ago..most guys couldn't finish even with 800-880...the rest struggled and finished in at least twice the time as todays athletes.

Now its a sprint.

I understand the wild men from Lithuania(2nd place WSM2002 Savicus) have done some crazy weights in a contest with well over 1000lb.

I'll ask around and try to find the contest and the weights used...

[gazza]

Tom

Human achievement being what it is,records will always be broken,

look how many people are near the 4#,who would have thoght it when Kinney did or did not close it.

I still think that you could put Saxon,Apollon and Kaz at his best up against the best pressers today!

And Goerner up against the best deadlifters.

I do agree that the strongmen of today Phister and co are setting the standard in the farmers walk event,but if Goerner had done this type of training so would he.

[ChrisJames]

Sultan Rakhmanov once walked 50 metres with 1100 lbs on his shoulders with no support equipment in the 80's.

CAN pHIL Phister deadlift 800 lbs ?

[Roark]

It was said MacAskill's shoulders were 44" wide- wonder

how they got him in that 29" wide casket?

There is more fiction than fact about MacAskill's feats- my

first issue of MuscleSearch many years ago was devoted

to him. Many of these tales are simply retold by writers whose only research is repeating previously unresearched

materials.

The anchor feat is attributed to Boston and to New Orleans and to New York City. The anchor weighed either 1,200 lbs or 2,700 lbs. It did and did not have a chain

attached to it. He either lifted it on to his shoulders and

walked a 'few feet' or he walked '100 yards'; or he lifted

it overhead.

Regarding the circus career of Angus I researched several

books on the history of the circus, and on Barum etc. By

the way, Barnum never had his own circus during the lifetime of MacAskill- and those little details matter.

I do not want to become known as the one who doubts

everything, but I certainly doubt, after study, MacAskill's

feats.

[Tom of Iowa2]

You mean off the floor with a bar?i don't even know.It is his worst event i would suppose.He did do a partial deadlift just last year,at the Azalea fest with giant tires with over 800 for approx 15 reps.(go to the samson site.archives it has the results-yes it shocked everybody he beat Joshnny Perry and magnus Ver magnusson at that lift)i understand from a very reliable source that he has Finally started to address his weight room deficiencys and IS doing deads off the floor.For years he has just worked on the 'events'.Personally?If it was MY choice?i'd rather beable to load a 420lb Atlas stone or pick up-off the ground-a 410lb Husafelt stone and walk 150 ft or even carry 660 in the crook of my arms(stone circle)further and faster than anyone in the world? than be able to deadlift 800 in a power meet...

So again-i don't know what he can deadlift(or i can't say )But He DID walk up a ramp with 800 at the Arnold-6 days after doing a full blown pro contest in Boston- and beat everybody there at that event including Mark Henry who is a 0FFICIAL/LEGIT. 900lb deadlifter..who might have had a 'heads up'on the actual apparatus...

[Tom of Iowa2]

Also-doesn't answer your question of Phils deadlift off the floor but in a contest in ohio las year-promoted by Dino Nick-the tire supplier sent the wrong tire.it was supposed to be 880-900 and it was around 1150#.Many of the competitors could not flip it once-a few got one flip-second place was 30 ft.....and Phil flipped it over 60 ft..again not an 800 dead but many 700 deadlifters got stuck near the starting line.

Not a tale..not a fable...not a legend..1150#tire that was sent to a contest due to error..well documented contest with judges,witnesses and......photos.

[ChrisJames]

Why do you think that Goerners lifts are "fables" and stories ?

There were people around like Joe Roark , David Webster and David Horne who are interested Historians of the iron game.I do not dipute Phil Phisters physical prowess in strongman contests and i realise that he has the potential to be a great.But people like Edgar Mueller , who was a very respected authority of the iron game, knew how tp weigh ,measure and record as good as anybody today regardless of the fact that he wrote a book or not.

Joe Assarati who actually witnessed Goerners lifts recounted personally with me what he saw.Charles Smith had great respect for Joe's Knowledge and integrety.Do not dismiss the old time greats and their lifts just because of one video or a safe.

I've competed in strongman since 1995 to national level and realise the standards rise.I have also done the farmers walk with oxy cylinders that are 300 lb in each hand and ran with them and believe me you do need to deadlift them first to get into position.I have also shouldereed a 400 pound sack of sand and deadlifted 700 for reps so i know the strength needed for that too .But doing the farmers walk with 2 weightlifting bars with over 300 in each hand is much harder again and this was DOCUMENTED by Edgar Mueller when Goerner did this.

[The Mac]

When I started being interested in Olde-time strongmen I pretty much accepted everything at face value. Over time I began to think "what the heck.....". Now I need much more rigorous evidence to believe in, well, just about anything.

First off, I think it's possible that some of the lifts are true. I just don't know. But by looking at the progress in other sports over the last century, some of the lifts are still beyond what's been done today. Doesn't mean the original claims are fake, but it's something to think about. As is the "trickery" involved in some of the strength "acts" (and remember the old-time strongmen were "entertainers" rather than "athletes"), as per Inch.

As for the olde-time chroniclers, just look at how lifts are still propogated today. People still make claims for Inch and Anderson that have been pretty well proved to be false. Lifts ARE exaggerated, even today.

I look to the stories of Goerner, Apollon et al to be massively inspiring, but would not claim, or treat them, as fact. I would have to reseach each lift for it to become real for me.

[Roark]

Chris,

I look forward to studying Goerner this next year and

finally coming to some conclusions.

You mention there were people around who were interested historians when these events took place.Yes.

And I have the utmost respect for Mr. Assirati (is this not

the correct spelling?) because of what Charles Smith told me of his reliance.

I would therefore, for one, be very interested in which

specific lifts he witnessed.

On the other hand, one wonders where those people interested in history were during the decades of Inch's

deceptions, and why until recently the errors of the

Anderson backlift poundage went unreported, or dare I

offer, unrealized?

And we must be cautious not to brush aside every great

former lifter, as you say, just because some reports have

been inaccurate.

But. If some of the most famous lifts of history are proven

to be overstated, as I believe they have been, then we must err on the side of caution, demanding proof.

After all, when false lifts are what are brushed aside, then

true lifts are what remain- and those lifts are, in terms of

reality, what actually happened in the first place, and the sad fact that we may have been misinformed about the lifts of some athletes, neither enhances nor diminishes the

facts of history.

Allowing the myths to remain unchallenged is what

diminishes strength history.

Abolishing strength fiction is a necessary by-product of

studying our sport's history, but it is what remains after

the purging that truly deserves our respect- however much

it may have appeared to be overshadowed by well-publicized erroneuous reports.

Frankly, I truly hope you are correct about Goerner.

[apdwler]

I often question the claims of oldtime strongman. I don’t think another sport exists, that involves strength, size, power, or speed that hasn’t advance by light years since the early 1900s. There are many reasons.

Large population base training

Better training methods

Better nutrition

The addition of powerful “Muscle enhancers”

Why would strongman be different than all other sports?

[Tom of Iowa2]

Chris,

First of all i enjoy this dialogue.

Second I don't think that ALL the old reports are all fables and stories.

I have until recently beleived almost all of what i had heard or read.

Sounds like Goerner in particular may be more accurately

portrayed than most and with perhaps?more credible witnesses?Maybe Mr.Roark will find more evidence....?

However the lack of more photographic evidence is troubling and as was indicated in the Anderson Trilogy some historians-of the era in question- may be wrong and recllecti0ns distorted by time.

Evidently some of Andersons lifts were well documented.Some done in actual contests but it seems? many of his 'strongman'feats are way off....thus I have to be at least be suspicious of the past?

And Anderson?was a 'modern' strongman so I have even more doubts about the past.

Does NOT mean all others were cheating or deceptive but again it opens the door of suspicion.

Suspicious is what i am NOW...and as we follow the logic highway we must wonder about the lack of photographs and movies.We must conclude that it is more likely that with a tremendous increase in world population and with humans being bigger and at least apparently faster and stronger in ALL other sports that perhaps these claims of superior strength are at best undocumented and at worst?very questionable. Other historical events that have been rewritten or perhaps at least shown to be suspect such as the explosion on the Battleship Maine that started the Spanish American War was recently shown to be because of a boiler roll/or coal storage accident.Recently a documentary-done by James Cameron with mini subs- of the sinking of the Bismark showed that indeed the waterline armor of the Battleship was intact thus perhaps it was scuttled as claimed by the Germans...there was no eveidence that the shelling did the damage and the torpedoes didn't even dent the waterline armor...IF such deception or even mistakes were made of such important historical events?then why should i believe all these claims about superior strength athletes?

And why i brought up so many feats done by Phil pfister?

Well you did ask IF he was capable of deadlifting 800lbs....and actually I have a pretty good idea of what he can deadlift and in a years time or even18 months it should be right up there with the best...even now IT is much better than it WAS... BUT i always find it interesting that people(not saying it was your intent)always ask about phils Deadlift or Bench..his worst events?! but rarely bring up what he CAN do...which @ a World class level is great.He was the first person to load the 5 stones @ WSM in 30 seconds only Samuelson has eclipsed that time,he is clearly the best @ farmers walk light ,heavy or anything in between,he dominates the stone/conans circle on Pudzianoski is even in the ball park,he dominates the Husafelt stone,he was the first to ever lift the 6th stone of 420lbs in a contest(after 5 stones that were up to 385)He was the second man to continental cleand and the push press the 172 INCH dumbell and did it infront of hundreds of witnesses -(after he was beat up from back to back contests)In WSM 2001 he held the Hercules Hold longer than anyone inWSM 2001 and had enough air left over to give a patriotic speech and then throw down the handles as if he was bored,while SICK at the 2002 Nationals he cleaned then pressed a 2 inch axle of 300lbs for 11 reps-with VERY strict judgeing- having 2 reps called back(not his best event by far)AND again at the Azalea did 15 reps with a partial of 800 beating Johnny Perry(RIP)a 750 plus deadlifter and magnus Ver...who although not in his prime can still deadlift.

Thus I brought up some other back strength related events and then thought of a few more events he is pretty good at.

Yep i'm suspicious of the past.

[young'un]

On the subject of Goerner and modern strongmen...does any body know what the heaviest single-hand DL recorded in any form is and by whom? By recorded in any form, I'm referring to anything of which there are photos or videos (though to satisfy my amazingly shrewd outlook on life, credible witnesses would work too).

Has anyone actually surpassed Goerner's claimed 727# lift?

-jeff

[The Mac]

David Horne has done a heavier one-hand lift (337.5kg/744lbs, if memory serves), at the 2001 British Grip Champs I believe. Photos are in the Gallery for your perusal.

[ChrisJames]

Tom ,

I enjoy this interaction also and its good to have 2 different view points like we do.

I also think Phil Phister is great and hope he recovers to compete in top class competion again.

Have a lovely Christmas

All the best

Chris

ps- He's still not as strong as Goerner

[mobsterone]

1) David Horne's lift was a partial lift (I know I competed that year and did 400 pounds myself) and 2) more weight will have been 'moved' in one hand hip and thigh and or harness lifts.

I don't think anyone has claimed a bigger one hand full range deadlift.

I do predict that a 350 pound thick handled dumbbell deadlift is in the offing (2003) and I know that 400 pound one hand deadlifts using a barbell are, if not ten-a-penny, getting more frequent.

Edited December 24, 2002 by mobsterone

[The Mac]

Well, I didn't say it was a deadlift.....

I believe Wille Whoriskey has one-hand deadlifted 300kgs/661lbs, but whether that was a full range deadlift I know not.

[AnimalCage]

I feel like a Matt Graham cheerleader. Well, SIS BOOM BAH! I will say this because it was a documented, official USAWA lift. Matt did a farmer's walk with barbells totalling 580 lbs for 66 ft. I don't know how much Goerner's "well over" 600 lbs is, and how far he carried it, but I can say that 600 lbs is within the realm of possibility.

Alan

[David Horne]

Willie's was a partial lift done at the One hand Celcon lift contest.

David

[The Mac]

Thanks for that David - I had seen the weight of the lift quoted but didn't know where the lift was done. Do you have any more details on this lift? Slightly off topic I know......

Thanks in advance

[David Horne]

I have all the details regarding this, including a signed programme from the day. I did an article on this for Iron Grip.

David