Las Vegas Supermatches

[Flexor Brachialis]

oh sorry, didn't watched the video and talked about a diffrent...

But anyways Georgie is STRONG, and without a fast start and motivation of bagent, georgie is stronger IMO.

I saw a video on ArmTV were he hooks with Brzenk, and Brzenk could not pin him and said that you should not hook Georgie...

Edited April 20, 2009 by Flexor Brachialis

[lifesnotfair]

I remember Brzenk saying "do not hook Georgi!" too. The man is strong, and in this particular move, stronger than Travis IMO... even leftie!! How many times have you seen Travis lose leftie in the past few years? Giorgi did it and with pure strength, not a flashing move or anything.

All you guys saying that was fake... you're funny. Seriously. Lets briefly analyze this.

We've stated Giorgi is very strong in a hook, since even John Brzenk warned (with humour, but seriously) the AW world not to hook this man.

So, you people cannot think Giorgi is weak. The ONLY other reason you might have to consider this is fake, is that Travis super strong. Now let me ask you this: against top dogs, top hookers, how many times have you seen Travis beating them in a hook? Ah, you answered your own question. He always toprolls these fellas. Sure he could hook and beat most people, but not the strongest guys. I think Rob Vigeant Jr. at like 205 pounds beat Travis in a hook as well, in practise matches though. But I'm just trying to prove a point, and is that Travis is definitely not the strongest guy ever in a hook, otherwise he'd be seen hooking more often.

I could be wrong though.

[kyle102887]

I remember Brzenk saying "do not hook Georgi!" too. The man is strong, and in this particular move, stronger than Travis IMO... even leftie!! How many times have you seen Travis lose leftie in the past few years? Giorgi did it and with pure strength, not a flashing move or anything.

All you guys saying that was fake... you're funny. Seriously. Lets briefly analyze this.

We've stated Giorgi is very strong in a hook, since even John Brzenk warned (with humour, but seriously) the AW world not to hook this man.

So, you people cannot think Giorgi is weak. The ONLY other reason you might have to consider this is fake, is that Travis super strong. Now let me ask you this: against top dogs, top hookers, how many times have you seen Travis beating them in a hook? Ah, you answered your own question. He always toprolls these fellas. Sure he could hook and beat most people, but not the strongest guys. I think Rob Vigeant Jr. at like 205 pounds beat Travis in a hook as well, in practise matches though. But I'm just trying to prove a point, and is that Travis is definitely not the strongest guy ever in a hook, otherwise he'd be seen hooking more often.

I could be wrong though.

I'm just evaluating how he was going against Giorgi. Didn't position himself well, seems as if he didn't even think Giorgi was bringing anything to the table. I think after his hit failed he kind of just held on. I know Giorgi is good, but the match didn't go right into a hook. It took a while and Travis had decent hand position till the very end.

I shouldn't have agreed with the "fake" statement. As it was a real match, I'm just not sure how much effort was put into it on either persons part.

[G-Man]

As for the Georgi video, yeah I was also gonna say it looks fake.

That's part of the reason why I don't think Jerry Cadorette should be ranked as high as he is (above Dave Randall and Ron Bath) because he beat Travis very convincingly as of late. We can't say for sure if Travis was giving 80-90% his best effort in those matches since this happens not too uncommonly with Travis. Travis also "lost" to Dave Marraco at this year's Get-A-Grip, a solid, national caliber Maryland puller (but not at Travis' level).

Beating one top seed puller should not automatically put you above that puller in ranking. That's why I have issue with Jerry being above Ron Bath and Dave Randall, since I don't believe he's beaten either of them since the 1990's. I'd put Jerry somewhere between Michael Todd and Ron Bath. I think Nick Zinna and Richard Lupkes would make interesting matches for Jerry, but judging by what people are saying about Lupkes, who knows?

I agree here. Have you discussed this with Engin?

I have not discussed this with Engin - nor have I mentioned it to the people who do the InTheHook rankings, who also put Jerry one notch below Devon and John.

Also, another thing about Jerry is that his performance fluctuates A LOT and he doesn't compete too much. In 1995, I saw him lose to Rob Baker (son of arm wrestling legend Moe Baker). Jerry also lost to Jason Vale that year:

Then, a year later, I saw Jerry crush Dave Randall to win the 242's at Nationals in Albany. Also in 1996, Jerry beat Ron Bath and Cleave Dean at the Yukon Jack World Championships, taking second place, only to Gary Goodrich.

Don't get me wrong though - Jerry at his best is an absolute monster. I just don't think he should be ranked above Ron and Dave right now until he beats them again.

Georgie has an awesome hook - for his weight, easily one of the best in North America. Joe Rozbora, on the other hand, weighs over 310 and has a hook at least as good, probably even better than Georgie - and Travis blew right through him.

Make no mistake about it – Travis is strong EVERYWHERE; there are very, very few people who can beat him when he is determined to win.

For the record, in 2003 – the year that Travis beat Voevoda to win the worlds – even I had a decent strap match with Travis in a Sept 11th tournament in Baltimore (I ended up getting third that day). If Travis wanted to, he probably could have finished the match up in a fraction of a second. He didn’t – he wanted to put on a show for the audience.

Edited April 21, 2009 by G-Man

[Flexor Brachialis]

Jerry has a record against Ron which is 4 : 1 so why Ron should be ranked above him ?

Joe Rozboa easily beats Bagent in a hook, he only had no chance to get into it unless Bagent allowed him... Bagent never blewed through him in a hook.

[lifesnotfair]

Jerry has a record against Ron which is 4 : 1 so why Ron should be ranked above him ?

Joe Rozboa easily beats Bagent in a hook, he only had no chance to get into it unless Bagent allowed him... Bagent never blewed through him in a hook.

Agreed. What in the world makes you (G-man) say that Travis blew through Rozbora's hook?? He LOST to him in a hook last year!! But then came back and toprolled him twice to take first place. You're mistaken. And I never said Travis isn't strong "everywhere", but his hook is most definitely not up to par with his toprolling abilities.

[G-Man]

Jerry has a record against Ron which is 4 : 1 so why Ron should be ranked above him ?

Joe Rozboa easily beats Bagent in a hook, he only had no chance to get into it unless Bagent allowed him... Bagent never blewed through him in a hook.

Unless I am mistaken, I don't think Jerry beat Ron since the 1990's. I was not aware that Rozbora beat Bagent in a hook.

I would put Ron above Jerry because:

(1) Ron won in their most recent match (2007 Mohegan Sun Worlds)

(2) Ron has consistently been pulling and beating the very best - most recently, for example, by winning the Arnolds

Edited April 21, 2009 by G-Man

[darthsith19]

Yeah but Travis Bagent is ranked above Ron Bath and Jerry beat him. And I'm pretty sure Travis would have gone full out against Jerry after what happened in 2005. So Jerry is ranked above Ron, too. Travis flashed Ron twice at the 2007 ROTN, just one month after Ron beat Jerry, so it's right to rank Travis above Ron, and since Jerry beat Travis he goes above Travis in the rankings, and thus above Ron, too. That'd be like saying, Devon shouldn't be ranked #1 because Taras beat him in 2006. Even though he since then has beaten Ron, Travis, and John, who are ranked above Taras, he never beat Taras. So why's he ranked above him? Jerry wasn't even training in 2007 when Ron beat him he just came to Mohegan Sun cause it's in his backyard. Now he is training. I do think he should come out more though instead of staying in his backyard all the time.

As for Dave Randall, he's a tricky one to rank. Engin says he doesn't rank Dave because Dave does not compete enough, and it's been about a year now since Dave competed so I can't blame Engin for not ranking him. He needs to come out more if he wants to be ranked and yeah he would probably be above Jerry, if he chose to be.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Josh H

[lifesnotfair]

It's what I've always said G-man: Travis is the best leftie, and certainly one of the best rightie. However, with the technicalities involved in AW, sometimes the best may not be the strongest. Sure thing, a weakling with perfect technique or even cheating skills is not gonna win! You have to be strong of course!! But have you noticed the way Christian Binnie talks about Travis in the NE AW board? He laughs. He calls people like him "handwrestlers" instead of armwrestlers. There is a reason for all of this this. Travis usually owns Christian, sure, BUT... has it happened in a hook? Christian says he beats Giorgi easily leftie in a hook, and Giorgi beat Travis in 2008 in a hook leftie. So while we're all screaming "Travis is the best left handed ever!!!" we should at least know in our minds that he may very well not be the strongest, at least "in the arm", to use the words that pullers use. But props to the guy for his almost unbeatable move.

In that tournament in 2008, Travis lost to Giorgi LEFTIE in a hook, and to Rozbora rightie in a hook. But with both of them, he came back, toprolling both two times and took both first places. Yes, he was "BETTER" than then both that day. But was his ARM stronger??? It raises doubts. There is no doubt he was the winner, the best, whatever you wanna call it. But did he have the strongest ARM? After all, it's called ARMwrestling for a reason.

[darthsith19]

Did Georgi really beat Travis in a hook left handed? I saw Travis beat Christian in a hook left handed before, I think at the AAA National Championships in 2008. I guess I'll go check. btw yes it's ARM wrestling and your hand is part of your arm just as much as your bicep is. Christian does call toprolling hand wrestling, but that'd be like if Travis called Christian a bicep wrestler.

Edit: It can't have been the AAA nationals cause I looked at the results and Travis isn't in them. I don't know which tournament it was. All I remember is it was a super long HOOK match.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Josh H

[jad]

It's what I've always said G-man: Travis is the best leftie, and certainly one of the best rightie. However, with the technicalities involved in AW, sometimes the best may not be the strongest. Sure thing, a weakling with perfect technique or even cheating skills is not gonna win! You have to be strong of course!! But have you noticed the way Christian Binnie talks about Travis in the NE AW board? He laughs. He calls people like him "handwrestlers" instead of armwrestlers. There is a reason for all of this this. Travis usually owns Christian, sure, BUT... has it happened in a hook? Christian says he beats Giorgi easily leftie in a hook, and Giorgi beat Travis in 2008 in a hook leftie. So while we're all screaming "Travis is the best left handed ever!!!" we should at least know in our minds that he may very well not be the strongest, at least "in the arm", to use the words that pullers use. But props to the guy for his almost unbeatable move.

In that tournament in 2008, Travis lost to Giorgi LEFTIE in a hook, and to Rozbora rightie in a hook. But with both of them, he came back, toprolling both two times and took both first places. Yes, he was "BETTER" than then both that day. But was his ARM stronger??? It raises doubts. There is no doubt he was the winner, the best, whatever you wanna call it. But did he have the strongest ARM? After all, it's called ARMwrestling for a reason.

Apparently, neither Joe or Georgie was strong enough to put Travis in a hook when he didn't want to be placed there so I don't understand how they can be deemed "stronger" than him? What about Travis's backpressure? Does that type of arm strength not count?

[lifesnotfair]

jad: Travis is strong no doubt, but even he has been heard saying "sure, you can beat me in a hook, but you'll never get me there". Maybe he can really beat a guy 10 out of 10 times, legally and everything.... but if they started in a hook he'd lose the majority of the matches to the same guy. How could he still claim to be "stronger" if this is the case? He may be better, but if he were truly that much stronger than his opponent, he'd beat him, all things equal, in a hook as well. This is just my opinion though, it's not a matter of right or wrong, so please don't flame me

[jad]

jad: Travis is strong no doubt, but even he has been heard saying "sure, you can beat me in a hook, but you'll never get me there". Maybe he can really beat a guy 10 out of 10 times, legally and everything.... but if they started in a hook he'd lose the majority of the matches to the same guy. How could he still claim to be "stronger" if this is the case? He may be better, but if he were truly that much stronger than his opponent, he'd beat him, all things equal, in a hook as well. This is just my opinion though, it's not a matter of right or wrong, so please don't flame me

Because they don't start in a toproll because Travis says so or he always wins a coin toss or whatever. If they're not strong enough to put him in hook, then they're not stronger than him. They don't let him start in a toproll, he's earning that with his strength and speed so why should he let people start in a hook? It's like saying if Frank Mir wouldn't use his BJJ he'd lose to Brock Lesnar 10/10 times so he's not really tougher than Brock.

[darthsith19]

^ Yup.

[kyle102887]

It's what I've always said G-man: Travis is the best leftie, and certainly one of the best rightie. However, with the technicalities involved in AW, sometimes the best may not be the strongest. Sure thing, a weakling with perfect technique or even cheating skills is not gonna win! You have to be strong of course!! But have you noticed the way Christian Binnie talks about Travis in the NE AW board? He laughs. He calls people like him "handwrestlers" instead of armwrestlers. There is a reason for all of this this. Travis usually owns Christian, sure, BUT... has it happened in a hook? Christian says he beats Giorgi easily leftie in a hook, and Giorgi beat Travis in 2008 in a hook leftie. So while we're all screaming "Travis is the best left handed ever!!!" we should at least know in our minds that he may very well not be the strongest, at least "in the arm", to use the words that pullers use. But props to the guy for his almost unbeatable move.

In that tournament in 2008, Travis lost to Giorgi LEFTIE in a hook, and to Rozbora rightie in a hook. But with both of them, he came back, toprolling both two times and took both first places. Yes, he was "BETTER" than then both that day. But was his ARM stronger??? It raises doubts. There is no doubt he was the winner, the best, whatever you wanna call it. But did he have the strongest ARM? After all, it's called ARMwrestling for a reason.

Apparently, neither Joe or Georgie was strong enough to put Travis in a hook when he didn't want to be placed there so I don't understand how they can be deemed "stronger" than him? What about Travis's backpressure? Does that type of arm strength not count?

Yeah it's always a hookers cry......Problem is you can go top roll to top roll (in a strap) and see who's stronger there. But I guess to be really strong you have to eliminate most of the hand aspect and go into a hook to hook scenario to prove something.

I don't get it....I say if you win you win you lose you lose. Doesn't matter how just that you do......

[lifesnotfair]

If you don't get it, I'll try to make myself more clear. I said it's not a matter of right or wrong, it's just an opinion about a moral issue, kindof. It is hard to explain, but it is not fair to make comparissons such as jad's. Yes, in every sport you could make silly arguments like "if Michael Jordan wasn't allowed to jump, he would have just been average and not the best", but that's plain dumb, as the game calls for many, many jumps. Also the MMA example of jad's about Mir and Lesnar is plain dumb (knowing jad said this on purpose to prove a point, not saying that his argument is dumb, but the example).

However, many, many armwrestlers (note: real pullers, not even fans like me) consider the hook to be the truest test of armstrength in the sport of armwrestling. Again, what I'm saying is: given a scenario where a man can toproll everyone in the room, but he loses to half of the men in the room in a hook if they agree to pull in a hook... say they set up a tourney and since in there you can do what you want, he goes undefeated by toprolling everyone. But you know even YOU can beat him in a hook 'cause you practise with him and constantly beat him in a hook, and so do others of that group. Is it arguable that the man was the winner that day? Of course not! It might not even be arguable that he is the best. I said this in my previous post. But for those of you (and us) who see a hook as the true test of power... is it not arguable that this man, the best on that day, the winner, undefeated, etc., might not actually be the strongest? That's all I'm saying, it is arguable, I'm not saying he's not. From one point of view, you could say he's the strongest as he didn't allow anyone to get him into a hook which obviously requires being strong. But from those who see the hook in the way I've described above, they could argue he isn't really the strongest man in armwrestling. I will repeat it again: this point of view would require the person to view the hook as the true test of raw power.. but this isn't stupid, like someone who views basketball without jumps as the true game of basketball, or someone who views MMA without jiujitsu as true fighting skills.. this isn't because it's a fact that many pullers, many of which have been pulling for decades, have stated what they think about the hook and it's what I've just said, it's not an insane statement like the one in the two examples I gave (one which was jad's).

[jad]

If you don't get it, I'll try to make myself more clear. I said it's not a matter of right or wrong, it's just an opinion about a moral issue, kindof. It is hard to explain, but it is not fair to make comparissons such as jad's. Yes, in every sport you could make silly arguments like "if Michael Jordan wasn't allowed to jump, he would have just been average and not the best", but that's plain dumb, as the game calls for many, many jumps. Also the MMA example of jad's about Mir and Lesnar is plain dumb (knowing jad said this on purpose to prove a point, not saying that his argument is dumb, but the example).

However, many, many armwrestlers (note: real pullers, not even fans like me) consider the hook to be the truest test of armstrength in the sport of armwrestling. Again, what I'm saying is: given a scenario where a man can toproll everyone in the room, but he loses to half of the men in the room in a hook if they agree to pull in a hook... say they set up a tourney and since in there you can do what you want, he goes undefeated by toprolling everyone. But you know even YOU can beat him in a hook 'cause you practise with him and constantly beat him in a hook, and so do others of that group. Is it arguable that the man was the winner that day? Of course not! It might not even be arguable that he is the best. I said this in my previous post. But for those of you (and us) who see a hook as the true test of power... is it not arguable that this man, the best on that day, the winner, undefeated, etc., might not actually be the strongest? That's all I'm saying, it is arguable, I'm not saying he's not. From one point of view, you could say he's the strongest as he didn't allow anyone to get him into a hook which obviously requires being strong. But from those who see the hook in the way I've described above, they could argue he isn't really the strongest man in armwrestling. I will repeat it again: this point of view would require the person to view the hook as the true test of raw power.. but this isn't stupid, like someone who views basketball without jumps as the true game of basketball, or someone who views MMA without jiujitsu as true fighting skills.. this isn't because it's a fact that many pullers, many of which have been pulling for decades, have stated what they think about the hook and it's what I've just said, it's not an insane statement like the one in the two examples I gave (one which was jad's).

I don't see the hook this way and I guess that's the sticking point

[lifesnotfair]

That's cool.

[monkeypaws]

I love hooking, but there is as much how to and skill involved in a hook as there is in a toproll.

I say that if no one can get the hook in then he is stronger because his STRENGTH was used to avoid or eliminate your strength............ultimately it is strength against strength, just different angles and styles, but it comes down to who is STRONGER in their move.

Toprollers could cry about hookers chopping in or gripping low............why not load back pressure ?.......there are so many variables and scenarios..................but is is all bunk........if someone is strong enough to blow through you consistently...........he is stronger.

If I had a buck for every time I heard......."geeze, if I could only get him here"......insert position of the most coiled position in armwrestling, in winning position and setting up a press..................wowser.............I guess that must mean that someone is stronger if they lose but ask to let them get in their most optimal position and then give the guy who just beat them a fit...........even though it is not how they pull or train.

stronger isn't just a hook, it is also hand, wrist, backpressure...........etc................these are all strengths too

[bobbrown]

Once again........you are learning

Monkeypaws is dead on correct.

[bobbrown]

Remember guys the problem in comparing strength is that you are generally comparing one set of muscles (hand) on puller "A" versus another set of muscles(arm) on puller "B"

So instead of arguing who is stronger than who. You should argue over who is stronger than who "In a particular move". at least than you can compare the same general set of muscles on both puller "A" and "B"

Edited April 22, 2009 by bob brown

[lifesnotfair]

Cool to see you two giving your opinions!!!

Still, Rob gave another exaggerated example. Sure you can say "if I was 1mm from the pad in a tricep press, I would have won"... but that is not what we're talking about.

Suposse Travis beats "Puller A" 10 times out of 10 by toprolling. But if they decide to start in a hook, halfway through Travis's winning side to the pad, puller A still manages to beat him most of the times.

I guess it's clear who is stronger in each move. But the for the sake of arguments, the simple question "who's stronger?" may arise, without specifying a particular move, and for some reason I would refuse to answer, without adding anything, "Travis.", just like that. I would at least say "Travis is, but if in a hook, Puller A is stronger even coming from a losing possition". Heh heh, I hope I'm not sounding stubborn. Forgive me if I am, I hope the discussion stays friendly.

If I were on a trial, with a jury, and it were a YES or NO answer, where you only can answer with one word, then yeah, I guess I would also say he is stronger. But if I'm allowed a longer answer I'd share my thoughts, heh heh. Like I said it's just a matter of expressing opinions, in the end, sure thing he's the winner so he must be the strongest if I had to pick a right answer to save my life or something.

[monkeypaws]

Arturo, after traveling around and meeting alot of armwrestlers, you would be suprised how often I actually hear this statement.........it is not exaggeration.

This is what kills me about people when I say they are way off base, they find the 1 angle on a table that they can handle a superior puller and then whine about not getting there and claim only ifs and to be stronger.............when in reality the other puller is probabally stronger in multiple angles.

Believe me, get to some tournaments and open your ears on the sidelines.............you are likely to hear this after a good number of matches as to why they lost.

[popeye76]

Here's another pic of Rich's forearm:

http://photos-h.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-...519_7271145.jpg

That's him and his son, his son armwrestlers too he practices with his dad and just did his first competition (the one where I met Rich and got videos and pics). His son weighs 185 lbs. and it's hard to imagine but he does have bigger than avg. forearms (small for an armwrestler though).

I'm surprised so many people want to see Devon vs. Denis, I'd think that'd be a pretty easy win for Devon right now. I'd much rather see him go against Lupkes, Bath, Bagent, and Todd right handed.

Edited May 10, 2009 by kong