Us Grip Nationals

[nockowt1]

Here the message I sent to Travis Ortmayer on bb.com:

Quote:

Originally Posted by nockowt1

A thread was posted on www.gripboard.com to find out what it would take for the sport of grip/hand strength to gain more exposure. In the early days of the sport people tested their grip against each other in garages and backyards. The sport has grown in the last 5 years and grip competitions are now being held in bigger venues (one was just held at Metroflex). For the most part the only competitors for these competitions are grip fanatics (a very small community). While grip has gained some exposure with some big names certifying on the COC grippers (Magnus Samuelsson, the Gillinghams, Andrus Murumets, and Brian Shaw) and with Mark Felix holding the Rolling Thunder record, there still aren't any big names that compete in grip competitions. The grip community would like to know what would attract someone of your status (and others like you) to test your grip strength against some of the best in the grip world. Some of the events usually found at grip competitions are: grippers, short steel bending (4"-7"), thick bar lifts (rolling thunder, inch dumbell replica, etc), axle lifts, one hand and two hand plate pinching, block weight lifting, farmers walks and holds, sledge hammer levering, vertical bar lifts, phonebook and card tearing, and hercules hold.

Here's his reply:

The best way to get guys at the top of the Strongman world to enter a grip contest would be to hold it in conjunction with a Strongman contest and offer some prize money. Most of these guys won't put themselves at risk with no return. I personally don't do grip only contests because I don't train a lot of those types of things and I wouldn't want to risk injury.

I did a competition once where they had a couple grip events after the show and I entered and had a great time. So I am sure other guys would do the same.

-Travis

[Rick Walker]

Hmmmmm....

Funny, he mentioned that "injury" thing I spoke about in the other thread.

[nockowt1]

I sent the same message to Matt Kroczaleski (on youtube) and I'm waiting for his reply.

[Bob Lipinski]

I have personally invited Matt K to my contests once or twice. I have seen him at Michigan PL meets here and there.

It will all come down to personal connections.

[Paul Knight]

Here the message I sent to Travis Ortmayer on bb.com:

Quote:

Originally Posted by nockowt1

A thread was posted on www.gripboard.com to find out what it would take for the sport of grip/hand strength to gain more exposure. In the early days of the sport people tested their grip against each other in garages and backyards. The sport has grown in the last 5 years and grip competitions are now being held in bigger venues (one was just held at Metroflex). For the most part the only competitors for these competitions are grip fanatics (a very small community). While grip has gained some exposure with some big names certifying on the COC grippers (Magnus Samuelsson, the Gillinghams, Andrus Murumets, and Brian Shaw) and with Mark Felix holding the Rolling Thunder record, there still aren't any big names that compete in grip competitions. The grip community would like to know what would attract someone of your status (and others like you) to test your grip strength against some of the best in the grip world. Some of the events usually found at grip competitions are: grippers, short steel bending (4"-7"), thick bar lifts (rolling thunder, inch dumbell replica, etc), axle lifts, one hand and two hand plate pinching, block weight lifting, farmers walks and holds, sledge hammer levering, vertical bar lifts, phonebook and card tearing, and hercules hold.

Here's his reply:

The best way to get guys at the top of the Strongman world to enter a grip contest would be to hold it in conjunction with a Strongman contest and offer some prize money. Most of these guys won't put themselves at risk with no return. I personally don't do grip only contests because I don't train a lot of those types of things and I wouldn't want to risk injury.

I did a competition once where they had a couple grip events after the show and I entered and had a great time. So I am sure other guys would do the same.

-Travis

Thanks for doing that Kevin! you should keep emailing! very cool

[Hubgeezer]

Two months ago, when I was trying to organize an International Geezer Championships, I emailed Odd Haugen. Keep in mind I made it clear it was for "over 50s". Here is what he said:

"I do NOT train any specialized grip events, so I doubt I can challenge the Masters! I get the training from just lifting and strongman events. I did 504lbs double overhand on the axle at Kevin's last contest (unofficial since I came after the contest was over). Also I carried two Inch Dumbbells for about 30 feet in my last training session, but that is about it for my grip training. Please keep me posted on dates and events."

So, from what I can determine, he would be interested in participating in a grip contest in Southern California for fun, but that would be about it. And I suspect he is a little friendlier to the concept of "grip" than many. He has been to contests before, has judged one contest that I am aware of, and has been in one.

[climber511]

Two months ago, when I was trying to organize an International Geezer Championships, I emailed Odd Haugen. Keep in mind I made it clear it was for "over 50s". Here is what he said:

"I do NOT train any specialized grip events, so I doubt I can challenge the Masters! I get the training from just lifting and strongman events. I did 504lbs double overhand on the axle at Kevin's last contest (unofficial since I came after the contest was over). Also I carried two Inch Dumbbells for about 30 feet in my last training session, but that is about it for my grip training. Please keep me posted on dates and events."

So, from what I can determine, he would be interested in participating in a grip contest in Southern California for fun, but that would be about it. And I suspect he is a little friendlier to the concept of "grip" than many. He has been to contests before, has judged one contest that I am aware of, and has been in one.

So all he can do is a 504# DO Axle lift and farmers walk a pair of Inch DBs for 30' ! We certainly have nothing to fear from him Mike

[Hubgeezer]

So all he can do is a 504# DO Axle lift and farmers walk a pair of Inch DBs for 30' ! We certainly have nothing to fear from him Mike

That's why the 1 Inch Vertical Bar needs to stay in Grip Contests. It just beats the crap out of the toughest guys, giving us regular folk opportunities we would not otherwise have! It also makes us seem tougher than we really are

[The Natural]

So all he can do is a 504# DO Axle lift and farmers walk a pair of Inch DBs for 30' ! We certainly have nothing to fear from him Mike

That's why the 1 Inch Vertical Bar needs to stay in Grip Contests. It just beats the crap out of the toughest guys, giving us regular folk opportunities we would not otherwise have! It also makes us seem tougher than we really are

Without the emoticon at the end, this is a more honest and concise expression of what's been voiced recently.

-Rex

[Hubgeezer]

So all he can do is a 504# DO Axle lift and farmers walk a pair of Inch DBs for 30' ! We certainly have nothing to fear from him Mike

That's why the 1 Inch Vertical Bar needs to stay in Grip Contests. It just beats the crap out of the toughest guys, giving us regular folk opportunities we would not otherwise have! It also makes us seem tougher than we really are

Without the emoticon at the end, this is a more honest and concise expression of what's been voiced recently.

-Rex

I don't disagree with that, even the emoticon part.

[Bob Lipinski]

Maybe. Sort of. Actually we want to test grip, all parts of it.

Turning everything into strongman type events will turn grip into a second rate strongman contest, rather than something unique. At least in my opinion.

[bencrush]

I'm surprised most strongman fans aren't fans of the 1" vbar anyway. You're lifting it with one hand (grip-dependent, it's not magic holding that bar), and moving a good deal of weight over a short distance. Working your obliques hard too in the process. I know 3 guys who pull over 350lbs and they use a belt almost all the time. I asked one what he could pull without the belt. I'll give him credit for not being embarrassed to show me what he could do without it. Barely got 300 off the ground and felt like his obliques and spine were going to cave in. Anyone moving 350lbs+ on the 1" vbar has a strong grip.

[Paul Knight]

I emailed Mark Felix awhile back to see if he would be interested in our grip comp and this is what he said:

Hey Paul

So good to hear from you and Im flattered that you would think to Invite me.......I dont think I would be capable of doing anything other than one handed by this date........ Im a plasterer (stone man? not sure what you call it in the u.s) having to use both hands with weights everyday is really the only grip training I do. (but im not allowed to work right now - my hands are so soft...haha)..... I dont know half of the grip implements, and only have the grippers and RT as my wife bought them for me.....Ive heard of a few of the grip guys you mentioned via you tube, but to be honest I dont think ill be going down the grip route, to many implements, and rules etc & guys that know GRIP..... I learnt this via the coc vid (years id been fighting with the coc - within a week thanks to people who know i ahd it closed ?), I might have the grip but I dont have the time to learn technique, I dont think I could do both well, if you know what I mean because of the different training.

I do appreciate you thinking I would be a worthy contestant ,,, I have to lift, I need to lift but it feels better with two hands, i guess being injured has had me doing things with one hand I havent done before, but when Im 100% I wont be doing again, (with the exception of the RT- that's my baby) & I am planning on upping my record...... but do keep in touch you know where I am...and all the best with the comp....Its kind of weird getting all this support from grip guy's encouraging me to do things, I have the same kind of support from the powerlifting guys, but its not my chosen sport?...respect! F

[Hubgeezer]

Last few posts are interesting:

1. We all have our different reads, but to me, what Haugen and Felix are saying is the same thing.

2. The V Bar. I write an article in MILO describing the V Bar as one of three "standard events" in grip contests, and what happens? I don't think it's hardly been in any contests since. The Chris James injury in the 2007 British Nationals may have something to do with it, and the fact that Mikael, the biggest expert on the event and perhaps the best promoter of it, has pretty much dropped out from posting might be two reasons. Other than those two almost objective reasons, I am not really sure why. BenCrush and Ryan Klein would obviously like to see it because they are good at it. If you want to attract "Strongmen" to the sport, I say the 1 Inch V Bar is like holding a crucifix up to a Vampire, which is a good thing or bad thing, depending on your point of view. I don't think the "learning curve" of torn skin, higher chance of serious injury, and unnecessary pain has a big enough payoff for most on the event, be it Grip Guys or Strongmen. The reason I like it is that it is an excellent "mind over matter" challenge, more mental than anything else involving over 300 pounds.

3. Re-reading the quote from Travis Ortmayer, he may be saying the same thing as Haugen and Felix as well.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Hubgeezer

[MalachiMcMullen]

Last few posts are interesting:

1. We all have our different reads, but to me, what Haugen and Felix are saying is the same thing.

And to be honest, I think we all knew this all along. I've never really thought that getting a big name from another sport to compete in grip would be such a great thing. There are a few people I think who would have a better impact on the sport than others, Matt Kroc and the afforementioned Pro Strongmen are such individuals, but we would need actual coverage of the event above and beyond what we have had so far. If you ask me, it's not enough to have big names competing if hardly anyone hears about it. People need to know about grip contests themselves, the developing grip org will help in that significantly I think.

[climber511]

Last few posts are interesting:

1. We all have our different reads, but to me, what Haugen and Felix are saying is the same thing.

2. The V Bar. I write an article in MILO describing the V Bar as one of three "standard events" in grip contests, and what happens? I don't think it's hardly been in any contests since. The Chris James injury in the 2007 British Nationals may have something to do with it, and the fact that Mikael, the biggest expert on the event and perhaps the best promoter of it, has pretty much dropped out from posting might be two reasons. Other than those two almost objective reasons, I am not really sure why. BenCrush and Ryan Klein would obviously like to see it because they are good at it. If you want to attract "Strongmen" to the sport, I say the 1 Inch V Bar is like holding a crucifix up to a Vampire, which is a good thing or bad thing, depending on your point of view. I don't think the "learning curve" of torn skin, higher chance of serious injury, and unnecessary pain has a big enough payoff for most on the event, be it Grip Guys or Strongmen. The reason I like it is that it is an excellent "mind over matter" challenge, more mental than anything else involving over 300 pounds.

3. Re-reading the quote from Travis Ortmayer, he may be saying the same thing as Haugen and Felix as well.

My most serious injury from any grip event was from 1" V Bar - I suffer daily from it and probably always will. Second was shoulder injury from DO bending, it is pretty well healed after close to 2 years of working and rehab on it. That doesn't make them bad events for everyone - just for me. They are deal breakers as far as my attending a contest. Competing in strength events such as Pro Strongman is already a pretty high risk of injury sport. If that's your bread and butter though you will train progressively for the events you have to do and can do them with relative safety. Adding in events with other injury risk that in all likely hood they will not train for increases that risk for sure - in many case they will see that risk as excessive - especially with no money on the line to compensate them. Some grip stuff seems safer than others and is more likely to attract the people we are talking about perhaps.

[The Natural]

2. The V Bar. I write an article in MILO describing the V Bar as one of three "standard events" in grip contests, and what happens? I don't think it's hardly been in any contests since. The Chris James injury in the 2007 British Nationals may have something to do with it, and the fact that Mikael, the biggest expert on the event and perhaps the best promoter of it, has pretty much dropped out from posting might be two reasons. Other than those two almost objective reasons, I am not really sure why.

The 1" V-bar, along with grippers and hubbing, is the trojan horse of the stubby-fingered crowd. They love to tout it as being a "fair" event, to replace the other unfair events that the big-handed crowd has foisted upon them. Fact is, grippers, 1" V-bar, and hubbing all give a big advantage to small-handed people. They are just as "unfair" as thickbar and wide-pinch. The seeming moral superiority--fairness for all!--that was the lynchpin of their case actually does not exist. For a while, nobody pointed out these uncomfortable facts to the Handsize Objectors, but now I'm doing it, and there's really nothing they can do in response except play the Name Game, an argument which can be refuted in more or less five sentences.

-Rex

[Hubgeezer]

My most serious injury from any grip event was from 1" V Bar - I suffer daily from it and probably always will. Second was shoulder injury from DO bending, it is pretty well healed after close to 2 years of working and rehab on it. That doesn't make them bad events for everyone - just for me. They are deal breakers as far as my attending a contest.

The risk of injury on 1 Inch VBar and bending probably is higher compared to the other "specialty" events. Grippers, Two Hand Pinch for example don't carry much risk of injury during a contest.

I think that the event selection Steve Gardener has been using for the British Hand Strength Championships the last 3 years has been creative and outstanding. They are neither "Strongman" events nor grip "turf protectors". Things like Table Top Wrist Curls, Baby Inch hold for time, etc require strength but involve grip strength. His path has not fallen into a US grip contest pattern. Sure, some bias towards his personal strengths, but I think less so than most of us tend to do. They (the Brits) don't seem to complain the way we do about the sport, and seem a more cohesive group.

I don't think there is any danger with experimenting a little with events to see if having different types in grip contests helps the sport. When you have a sport that has a core base that is very passionate about what they do, tinkering with the formula is probably the best way to go. Radical change will probably lose the base.

[Hubgeezer]

The 1" V-bar, along with grippers and hubbing, is the trojan horse of the stubby-fingered crowd. They love to tout it as being a "fair" event, to replace the other unfair events that the big-handed crowd has foisted upon them. Fact is, grippers, 1" V-bar, and hubbing all give a big advantage to small-handed people. They are just as "unfair" as thickbar and wide-pinch. The seeming moral superiority--fairness for all!--that was the lynchpin of their case actually does not exist. For a while, nobody pointed out these uncomfortable facts to the Handsize Objectors, but now I'm doing it, and there's really nothing they can do in response except play the Name Game, an argument which can be refuted in more or less five sentences.

-Rex

1. Hub. My hands are about 8 inches long. I cannot hub stubby plate hubs, but do just fine on the IronMind Hub thank you. Are my hands large or small? I may or may not agree with you on that one.

2. Vbar. John Beatty makes a one inch Vbar, is very strong, does not have large hands, and is by no means a massive Vbar Numbers Man. Why does he not dominate the event? Shouldn't he be the King of it? Performance on One Inch Vertical Bar is hand size related? Is it not finger length, but muscular thickness that holds him back from it? I have no idea. Maybe the Vertical Bar is like a Muddy Football Field, the Great Equalizer. The best statistics the Gripboard has (thanks to Mikael) pertain to the Vertical Bar's best lifts. You can concisely make your argument concerning the advantage of the Small Handed Persons concerning the Vertical Bar in less than five sentences when the facts are there for everyone to measure your 5 sentences? Hey, go for it. 50 people, all serious grip competitors, is a good population sample, calibrated weights, identical equipment. I am sure every single person's hand size on the list of 50 can be determined somehow between the many Gripboard members.

3. Grippers. Arguing over handsize on that one, either direction, is, well, it's just silly.

[vikingsrule92]

Mike, leave Rex alone, he likes to bring up meaningless things to attempt to show that he's not as good as he is purely because of hand size.

1" Vbar, who cares? This hasn't been contested in about 2 years if I remember correctly, isn't this a moot point? It's like us arguing who has the handsize advantage on the freakin TTK or something, it's meaningless. That being said hand mass is BY FAR the more determining factor here. People with big giant hands like Eaton are going to struggle more then someone like me, because I would be able to wrap my hands around the bar tighter and more effectively then someone with giant heel/thumb pads.

Hubbing, again it's barely contested and not that major of a grip event. Boo hoo big handed guys don't have an advantage in something not that important when they have the advantage in nearly every standard grip comp event. That being said I still think this one depends on hand mass moreso then anything. People with really fat fingers will struggle more to get their hands in an advantageous position on a hub.

Grippers, this one you could not physically be more off base on Rex. Unless we're discussing the absurdly massive hands like Felix you don't have any leverage disadvantage whatsoever. AND you can do CCS and TNS which small handed individuals can't do at all, or at least can't do effectively. Let's look at how many 7" hand guys are at the top of the gripper world ....... Tommy? Ummmm I think that's pretty much it. Aaron might kind of count here because he has stubby fingers. But other then that probably >75% of the top gripper guys have ~8" hands.

[The Natural]

Grippers, this one you could not physically be more off base on Rex. Unless we're discussing the absurdly massive hands like Felix you don't have any leverage disadvantage whatsoever. AND you can do CCS and TNS which small handed individuals can't do at all, or at least can't do effectively. Let's look at how many 7" hand guys are at the top of the gripper world ....... Tommy? Ummmm I think that's pretty much it. Aaron might kind of count here because he has stubby fingers. But other then that probably >75% of the top gripper guys have ~8" hands.

Name Game Argument.

Name Game Argument Refutation, Extended Version:

If I said that having longer arms helps for the deadlift, it wouldn't matter if you produced ten thousand champion deadlifters with normal or short length arms. I'll go further and say that if every deadlifter of any fame to ever live had short arms, it wouldn't be any evidence against the claim. It's just a matter of physics--less range of motion is better. It's like the claim that, other things being equal, short bridges are less prone to collapse compared to very long bridges. If every bridge to ever collapse in the world was short, the engineer wouldn't come to doubt the claim or wonder if physics might be all wrong.

So instead of playing the name-game, which is not useful anyway in a sport with such a small sample size, I suggest we just look at things from an anatomical perspective. For hubbing, smaller handed guys have more surface contact. More surface contact is better for gripping. End of story. For grippers, a very large hand is asked to generate power within a range of motion at which the hand is weaker, compared to a smaller hand (it may help to imagine the handles of a gripper each becoming an inch and a half thick. If THAT happened, then the smaller handed guy would be operating in a disadvantageous range for the final bit of close, while the large handed guy would be operating in a better range).

-Rex

[dthor]

The V Bar. I write an article in MILO describing the V Bar as one of three "standard events" in grip contests

The 1"v-bar was a good event until the weights started to approach 380 and 400. The 1 Hand DL appears to be a good substitute to the 1" v-bar. Easy event for everyone to work on. The weights should tend to be lower than the 1" v-bar, and I haven't seen anyone tear up their hands on it.

They (the Brits) don't seem to complain the way we do about the sport, and seem a more cohesive group.

The Brits have David Horne. He gave the Brits a good base for years. We would do well by following his advice on setting up Contest events.

I really only care about 2 thing fair events and fair scoring.

[vikingsrule92]

Ok fine I'll play your game. You didn't answer my other two points though, I can't for the life of me figure out why

Let's break this down Rex. For the sake of this argument I'm leaving out absurdly massive hands (well over 9") because they make up such a small fraction of the population. The setting motion, who has a better advantage, the guy who has to pull the gripper all the way in with his setting hand just to start wrapping with the closing hand or the guy who can do it pretty much from the beginning of the set? And for this great anti-leverage principle of yours to be true it depends more on finger length then hand size because that's the thing that would be overwrapping around the handles. I have very long fingers when it comes to any semi-average hand (again, <9") and when I am closing a gripper my pinkie and ring fingers are just wrapped around the gripper handle (ala a good leverage position), basically you're saying that someone with ~7" handles, who can barely get their hands around the gripper when closing, has an advantage over someone like me who can get an advantageous position?

For the pure sake of argument let's say your correct (you're not, if you really want to be correct let's go ahead and say mid length hands have the advantage ~8"). Boo friggin hoo, you'll only have the clear cut, ridiculously large advantage in 5 out of 6 events in a grip comp, I'm so very sorry for you and your poor large handed friends

[The Mac]

Perhaps one way to get the sport more positive exposure would be less threads that threaten to degenerate like this one? This is a window into our world and it isn't always a pleasant one - it would be a bit like trying to get someone interested in Powerlifting by showing them Go Heavy. The amount of bitchiness (and I concede that many of my own posts could be included here) on the web is strange as every contest and get-together I've been to or read about has always sounded like a great time, even if it was in someone's garage.

Edited February 7, 2009 by The Mac

[climber511]

Perhaps one way to get the sport more positive exposure would be less threads that threaten to degenerate like this one? This is a window into our world and it isn't always a pleasant one - it would be a bit like trying to get someone interested in Powerlifting by showing them Go Heavy. The amount of bitchiness (and I concede that many of my own posts could be included here) on the web is strange as every contest and get-together I've been to or read about has always sounded like a great time, even if it was in someone's garage.

:rock :rock :rock