What Do I Use To Train For The Red Nail? (fbbc)

[Paul Savage]

Certifying on the ironmind red nail is part of a goal of mine, i like bending but it's been a bit of a problem for me, i can always bend a blue nail easy but have never been able to move a red, i think the best ive done is a blue with a green.

Im a 'fairly' big guy (weight ranges from 265-275), so flexibility may be an issue, however i can get them under my chin, only with very bent wrists though (is that normal?). I dont think having big hands helps with the little nails but cant do owt about that (i guess i just use a couple fingers instead?). Otherwise im not sure what the problem is, i did some levers the other day with arm on some creates we use to load stones on, an finished up with some singles of 18lbs normal way, an 9lbs reverse way - ive tried double underhand an it dont work for me so im guessing reverse way is all that matters - what can some of you red nail benders reverse lever? considering im twice as strong the other way im guessing it's a bit weak?

ive always had a weak upper body, my overhead strict press is less than 200lb, close grip bench press probably bodyweight at best, most ive curled is 60k x 8 - do i just need more upper body strength to bend a red?

i have fbbc advanced benders bag but it's not as simple as what i thought it would be, i dont know which ones are in between blue and red nail? i think i remember grade 5 an grade 8 bolts but dont know which ones they are?

thanks for any response

Paul

[luuc]

I'm not real good at this, but you might want to try 5/16" grade 2 bolts, and 5/16" CRS, both are not as tough as the Red, but pretty close.

If you can bend the grade 8 (1/4") (with 6 marks at the top and a little triangle) you're not very far away from the Red.

Also, the best way to gain bending strength is just to bend and practise on iso's.

It could be a mental issue too.

[Paul Savage]

I'm not real good at this, but you might want to try 5/16" grade 2 bolts, and 5/16" CRS, both are not as tough as the Red, but pretty close.

If you can bend the grade 8 (1/4") (with 6 marks at the top and a little triangle) you're not very far away from the Red.

Also, the best way to gain bending strength is just to bend and practise on iso's.

It could be a mental issue too.

it's not gonna be a mental issue, i see it as a little bar that 15 year olds have bent at half my weight - i feel like it should be easy for me, but obviously i either have some kind of weakness (possibly generally weak), or im not doing it right

is the grade 8 the brass coloured one? thats the only one i can see with 6 lines an a triangle. What does crs stand for? which is the grade 2? i have one that says TY with 3 lines on it, an two different length ones that say TY with 3 lines, but also FNL

[cberg]

I'm not real good at this, but you might want to try 5/16" grade 2 bolts, and 5/16" CRS, both are not as tough as the Red, but pretty close.

If you can bend the grade 8 (1/4") (with 6 marks at the top and a little triangle) you're not very far away from the Red.

Also, the best way to gain bending strength is just to bend and practise on iso's.

It could be a mental issue too.

it's not gonna be a mental issue, i see it as a little bar that 15 year olds have bent at half my weight - i feel like it should be easy for me, but obviously i either have some kind of weakness (possibly generally weak), or im not doing it right

is the grade 8 the brass coloured one? thats the only one i can see with 6 lines an a triangle. What does crs stand for? which is the grade 2? i have one that says TY with 3 lines on it, an two different length ones that say TY with 3 lines, but also FNL

yea the grade 8 is the brass one with 6 lines. crs stands for cold rolled steel. the grade 2 is the bolt with no lines on it. the one with 3 lines is a grade 5. if you can bend a blue easy i would try a 6 inch grade 5. if thats easy you can try a 5.5 inch grade 5 and then a 5 inch grade 5 or a grade 8. i think the 7 inch square is a little easier than the grade 8, for me anyway. when you can get a grade 8, ull be pretty close to the bastard. the 5/16" grade 2 bolts are a little easier than the bastard as well. you definitely have enough upper body strength to bend the red. you say your bending reverse? have you tried DO?

[twig]

]Im a 'fairly' big guy (weight ranges from 265-275), so flexibility may be an issue, however i can get them under my chin, only with very bent wrists though (is that normal?).

It's not flex, you're smaller than me and I don't have a flex issue, either you need to supple up, or you need some tech.

it's not gonna be a mental issue, i see it as a little bar that 15 year olds have bent at half my weight - i feel like it should be easy for me, but obviously i either have some kind of weakness (possibly generally weak), or im not doing it right

Perhaps that IS the mental issue? You really OUGHT to be able to do it, so when you try and fail you brain thinks your can't and shuts down?

Anyway, when're you going to come and train with me and Fred? Fred says I'm a helluva coach.

[matthcarl]

I wouldn't underestimate flexbility. I can really drive all my upper body strength into a bar because of my starting position. You can practice stretching out the chest and shoulders, which might help. My best strict press was 165 lbs. so I'm sure raw strength shouldn't be a problem, it's more about learning to direct the force into the bar without holding back.

That said, if you are practicing with IM pads for the Red nail cert, grip and wrist strength becomes much more of a factor, as well as just general toughening of the hands by repeated bending.

And one minor note...Grade 8 bolts are gold-colored like brass, but they are actually carbon-alloy steel.

[bencrush]

Paul, reading your log and knowing at least an estimation of your overall strength level, you've got plenty of strength to bend the Red and beyond right now. Right this minute-if your technique is correct for your body build. You could try modified DU, which doesn't require great flexibility. Watch Booyah's, Foxman's, and Adam Glass's videos on modified DU to get the hang of it. Experiment with different angles of forward learn when you're pulling the Red up under your chin. Work towards being able to PIN the Red with your chin to your chest. That stabilizes the bar so that you can put all that strength to use in bending it, and not wasting half of it stabilizing the bar while bending.

Reverse, in my opinion, should be your last choice because it will most likely require the most work to get strong enough to bend the Red that way. I'm sure you're not afraid of hard work-neither am I-but the DO and modified DU are much more capable of netting you some really big bends. Yes, there are some who reverse big steel. But the majority of guys will never reverse anywhere near what they can DO. DO is just much more advantageous in the leverage department.

Since you want to certify on the Red, it's a no-brainer that you'll want to do some training with the Ironmind pads. I'm sure you already know that. What might be counterintuitive is the fact that training with thick pads (double leather, or whatever that's about double the thickneess of the Ironmind pads when wrapped around a Red Nail) will improve your ability to bend even with the much thinner Ironmind pads. I wouldn't recommend bending solely with the Ironmind pads in other words.

[Paul Knight]

Paul, reading your log and knowing at least an estimation of your overall strength level, you've got plenty of strength to bend the Red and beyond right now. Right this minute-if your technique is correct for your body build. You could try modified DU, which doesn't require great flexibility. Watch Booyah's, Foxman's, and Adam Glass's videos on modified DU to get the hang of it. Experiment with different angles of forward learn when you're pulling the Red up under your chin. Work towards being able to PIN the Red with your chin to your chest. That stabilizes the bar so that you can put all that strength to use in bending it, and not wasting half of it stabilizing the bar while bending.

Reverse, in my opinion, should be your last choice because it will most likely require the most work to get strong enough to bend the Red that way. I'm sure you're not afraid of hard work-neither am I-but the DO and modified DU are much more capable of netting you some really big bends. Yes, there are some who reverse big steel. But the majority of guys will never reverse anywhere near what they can DO. DO is just much more advantageous in the leverage department.

Since you want to certify on the Red, it's a no-brainer that you'll want to do some training with the Ironmind pads. I'm sure you already know that. What might be counterintuitive is the fact that training with thick pads (double leather, or whatever that's about double the thickneess of the Ironmind pads when wrapped around a Red Nail) will improve your ability to bend even with the much thinner Ironmind pads. I wouldn't recommend bending solely with the Ironmind pads in other words.

Ben is right - start w/pads a little thicker than IM pads and then start cutting them down each time you complete a bend and you'll have it in no time.

I started w/some crappy leather and some steel from a local hardware store that had the same dimensions as the Red, so I thought if I could bend this steel I could bend the Red - turns out the Red was harder, but I got over the 5/16 hump (mentally). the leather I was using wassn't much better than IM pads but better, so it didn't take me long to nail the Red. You'll do the same

[Paul Savage]

]Im a 'fairly' big guy (weight ranges from 265-275), so flexibility may be an issue, however i can get them under my chin, only with very bent wrists though (is that normal?).

It's not flex, you're smaller than me and I don't have a flex issue, either you need to supple up, or you need some tech.

it's not gonna be a mental issue, i see it as a little bar that 15 year olds have bent at half my weight - i feel like it should be easy for me, but obviously i either have some kind of weakness (possibly generally weak), or im not doing it right

Perhaps that IS the mental issue? You really OUGHT to be able to do it, so when you try and fail you brain thinks your can't and shuts down?

Anyway, when're you going to come and train with me and Fred? Fred says I'm a helluva coach.

haha no, did a shut down after the 50th inch dumbbell attempt when i first tried yours? i dont think like that, that actually makes me want to bend it more cuss it's embarrasing that i cant

ill come down somewhen, has fred still got that 20lb hammer?

[Paul Savage]

when i said reverse i was talking about sledge (levering away from the face, rather than to it), thats the way the wrists take the pressure when using double overhand - this is the style im using, i can bend blues pretty easy reverse also, but im not sure i can get them to the right angle, my hand gets in the way. I think ive bent blues double under as well but always felt weaker - whats the modified style you talk of ben? any videos of it?

i was doing all my bending in IM wraps but i purchased some leather from david horne, so am now using some thin leather, as well as IM pads - i find it hard to keep the wraps tight

i think from what you said cberg, that i have bent a 5.5 inch grade 5, i had a go at this last night thinking it was a grade 2 but it has 3 lines on it (also TY), so it must be a 5 - it felt ok at the start but then when my knuckles got in the way i strugled a lot, with the blue nails i would just do a wide crush down, i could always tell it took a lot of force but would usually fold in a second or so, but this bolt wouldn't hardly move, i eventually got it it to 1 an 5/8ths but took me several minutes - seems like this is gonna be even more of a problem than the start, is this what im supposed to do when i get to that point? i couldn't figure out any kind of position to bend it the normal way without my hands getting in the way, i tried tucking the index finger under the middle to create a bit of room but it felt like i would break the bone. I guess i just do a wide crushdown?

so if ive got this right im to bend a grade 5 at 5 inch, then a grade 8, then the 7in square bar - thanks

[Paul Savage]

when i said reverse i was talking about sledge (levering away from the face, rather than to it), thats the way the wrists take the pressure when using double overhand - this is the style im using, i can bend blues pretty easy reverse also, but im not sure i can get them to the right angle, my hand gets in the way. I think ive bent blues double under as well but always felt weaker - whats the modified style you talk of ben? any videos of it?

i was doing all my bending in IM wraps but i purchased some leather from david horne, so am now using some thin leather, as well as IM pads - i find it hard to keep the wraps tight

i think from what you said cberg, that i have bent a 5.5 inch grade 5, i had a go at this last night thinking it was a grade 2 but it has 3 lines on it (also TY), so it must be a 5 - it felt ok at the start but then when my knuckles got in the way i strugled a lot, with the blue nails i would just do a wide crush down, i could always tell it took a lot of force but would usually fold in a second or so, but this bolt wouldn't hardly move, i eventually got it it to 1 an 5/8ths but took me several minutes - seems like this is gonna be even more of a problem than the start, is this what im supposed to do when i get to that point? i couldn't figure out any kind of position to bend it the normal way without my hands getting in the way, i tried tucking the index finger under the middle to create a bit of room but it felt like i would break the bone. I guess i just do a wide crushdown?

so if ive got this right im to bend a grade 5 at 5 inch, then a grade 8, then the 7in square bar - thanks

found a video of that reverse style, tried that last night, think i seen dave ostlund do it once - doesn't seem to work for me

just measured the one i bent again after looking at the others an it's 5 an 1/4in - if david horne is there this saturday, ill maybe see if he can help my technique a bit

[Paul Savage]

when i said reverse i was talking about sledge (levering away from the face, rather than to it), thats the way the wrists take the pressure when using double overhand - this is the style im using, i can bend blues pretty easy reverse also, but im not sure i can get them to the right angle, my hand gets in the way. I think ive bent blues double under as well but always felt weaker - whats the modified style you talk of ben? any videos of it?

i was doing all my bending in IM wraps but i purchased some leather from david horne, so am now using some thin leather, as well as IM pads - i find it hard to keep the wraps tight

i think from what you said cberg, that i have bent a 5.5 inch grade 5, i had a go at this last night thinking it was a grade 2 but it has 3 lines on it (also TY), so it must be a 5 - it felt ok at the start but then when my knuckles got in the way i strugled a lot, with the blue nails i would just do a wide crush down, i could always tell it took a lot of force but would usually fold in a second or so, but this bolt wouldn't hardly move, i eventually got it it to 1 an 5/8ths but took me several minutes - seems like this is gonna be even more of a problem than the start, is this what im supposed to do when i get to that point? i couldn't figure out any kind of position to bend it the normal way without my hands getting in the way, i tried tucking the index finger under the middle to create a bit of room but it felt like i would break the bone. I guess i just do a wide crushdown?

so if ive got this right im to bend a grade 5 at 5 inch, then a grade 8, then the 7in square bar - thanks

found a video of that reverse style, tried that last night, think i seen dave ostlund do it once - doesn't seem to work for me

just measured the one i bent again after looking at the others an it's 5 an 1/4in - if david horne is there this saturday, ill maybe see if he can help my technique a bit

scratch that, the one i bent was 5", it measured a bit more with it not being straight - just thought i dont know which ones are harder than a red (im gonna bend harder bars with more wraps first) >im pretty sure ive figured out which ones are the bastards, an im guessing a bastard is = to a red? two other ones im not sure about, they are thicker than the bolt i bent last night, but otherwise look the same, one is a 6" 7/8ths long an has a triangle an 3 lines on it, an the other is 6" long with whats looks to be B+L on it. What are these bolts called and how hard are they? judging by how hard that little one was last night, im guessing they are pretty tough?

[matthcarl]

The BL bolt sounds like a 5/16" grade 2. The diameter makes them harder to kink than the other bolts, but the steel is pretty soft and crushes easily once they give. If you can kink one of those, a bastard shouldn't be too far away. And I believe the recent bastards are harder than red nails.

three lines is always a grade 5...the triangle or FNL are both brand markings and aren't important. Also, a 5" bolt will usually be a hair longer than 5" because of the head.

[Paul Savage]

The BL bolt sounds like a 5/16" grade 2. The diameter makes them harder to kink than the other bolts, but the steel is pretty soft and crushes easily once they give. If you can kink one of those, a bastard shouldn't be too far away. And I believe the recent bastards are harder than red nails.

three lines is always a grade 5...the triangle or FNL are both brand markings and aren't important. Also, a 5" bolt will usually be a hair longer than 5" because of the head.

i thought a grade 5 was a grade 5, didnt realise there were different thickness

so i guess i go grade 8, 7" square, 6" square, grade 2, bastard, an then the thicker grade 5 at 7"

thanks

[matthcarl]

The 5/16" G2 is (in my opinion) easier than the 7"x1/4" square, but otherwise that sounds right. a 5/16" diameter Grade 5 (popularly known as the 'Edgin') is much, much harder than a bastard, though. I bent a red nail in 40 seconds, and can barely warp one of those babies.

[Paul Savage]

The 5/16" G2 is (in my opinion) easier than the 7"x1/4" square, but otherwise that sounds right. a 5/16" diameter Grade 5 (popularly known as the 'Edgin') is much, much harder than a bastard, though. I bent a red nail in 40 seconds, and can barely warp one of those babies.

i feel like with the red being 7" an not 5", my hands wont get in the way as much, so it's the kink thats the main issue, an you said the grade 2 is harder to kink than all the others

how much pressure does an edgin take? is it more than 300kg? (660lbs) i was thinking of maybe trying to work up to a 300kg challenge bar if you can still get them >im guessing a red is 500lbs or something alike?

[matthcarl]

I only meant the G2 is harder to kink than the 1/4" grade 5 and Grade 8 bolts, it's a fair bit easier than a red nail or bastard. An edgin calibrates in the 500's somewhere, but I forget exactly for the triangle brand. A red nail is 450 lbs, and I think the current bastards are 480. I'm not really sure what's beyond the edgin. I didn't even know there was a 300 Kg. challenge bar, but assuming the calibration methods are similar, that would be an elite bend on par with the King of All Bastards (3/8" CRS).

In any case the numers can be deceiving, and are only helpful in comparing stock of the same length. In the end you have to wrap the bar up and give it a try. Calibration can't take into account the springiness of the metal, or how hard the crush is compared to the kink.

[Paul Savage]

I only meant the G2 is harder to kink than the 1/4" grade 5 and Grade 8 bolts, it's a fair bit easier than a red nail or bastard. An edgin calibrates in the 500's somewhere, but I forget exactly for the triangle brand. A red nail is 450 lbs, and I think the current bastards are 480. I'm not really sure what's beyond the edgin. I didn't even know there was a 300 Kg. challenge bar, but assuming the calibration methods are similar, that would be an elite bend on par with the King of All Bastards (3/8" CRS).

In any case the numers can be deceiving, and are only helpful in comparing stock of the same length. In the end you have to wrap the bar up and give it a try. Calibration can't take into account the springiness of the metal, or how hard the crush is compared to the kink.

ill do the grade 2 after the grade 8 then

i would guess there would always be a heavier bar? there may not be though, the most listed is 290kg (hence why i would want to do 300) >ill work up to the edgin an then see how i feel

[Autolupus]

The 5/16" G2 is (in my opinion) easier than the 7"x1/4" square...

The G2s are all over the place, all the ones I've had have been a fair bit harder than the square, it'll just depend which ones you've got!

[matthcarl]

The G2s are all over the place, all the ones I've had have been a fair bit harder than the square, it'll just depend which ones you've got!

I suppose so. I have bent probably half a dozen brands of G2's, and I'd say they are all easier than a red nail and harder than a G8, though I did recently find some BGG-marked G2's that are hard enough I can't DU bend them. BL and 307A are more average. I've heard rumors of super-hard HKT bolts, but never seen one.

[lone Wolf]

Try some 19/64" O-1 Drill rod with IMpads to see where your at then go up for there

[JDarty6173]

Try some 19/64" O-1 Drill rod with IMpads to see where your at then go up for there

Where would someone purchase drill rod from?

[foxyj75]

The 5/16" G2 is (in my opinion) easier than the 7"x1/4" square...

The G2s are all over the place, all the ones I've had have been a fair bit harder than the square, it'll just depend which ones you've got!

Agreed. The "HKT" ones are as hard as a huge bastard . Go for the "BL" or "SJ" ones; they are the normal ones you are looking for.

[justiceislost1988]

Try some 19/64" O-1 Drill rod with IMpads to see where your at then go up for there

Where would someone purchase drill rod from?

Fastenal is where I get mine. 19/64" is a lot harder than a G8. I think if you don't have bad flexibility, 7" is around 6" G8 level. But it might be a little tougher. 7" is my comfort zone and 6" is on the line of too short.

Edited November 6, 2008 by justiceislost1988

[Booyah!!!]

Hi Paul, Pics of grd 5 and 8 http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?autocom...si&img=8008

Along with the other advice above, here is a neat list. The most complete one is Reverse Style Bending Unbraced http://www.davidhorne-gripmaster.com/bending.html

Do not neglect your 7" Groove.

Enjoy!!!!