Current And Prospective Promoters

[MalachiMcMullen]

Chris has done quite a lot to get this issue out there and I feel it's my time to help out. Let's not bring the "Contest Thoughts" thread into here because the very nature of that arguement is bust if this thread comes to a consensus.

Let's talk classes. Chris and I are both holding competitions where there will be 2 classes. These will be divided up by BW at 94kg/207lbs. For my contest, since there is an axle clean and press, it only makes sense. For Chris's contest, however, it is a proper non-hybrid grip competition.

The arguements about handsize and just being "bigger" are completely nullified by using BW classes. It makes sense to have only 2 classes given the limited # of competitors in the field. It also has the benefit of being a recognizable division to people outside the sport. There is very little that we can do to convince people who don't want to compete to compete without literally dragging them to a competition so they can see how much fun it is(I've done just that twice and it still hasn't worked). Those people just aren't going to compete and no rules or regulations will get them on the platform. Our concern should be those willing to test themselves in a public manner and not be afraid to fail. That means we need to appeal to competitors from other sports. Now, given enough time there will be hundreds more competitors in grip in the next decade. I'm sure of that. But we need to actively try and get people involved without compromising the future of the sport. No, I don't think that we need to get only strongmen involved in grip. I'm talking full spectrum. So either make an arguement against BW classes or in favor of divisions you see as being more favorable.

I don't want this to be another thread that comes to the conclusion that there is no conclusion and that one will come at a later date. It's time to be proactive.

Advertising. One problem grip has is that it is not widely advertised. Sure, people stumble upon board member's vids on YouTube and some even find their way here. But many lose interest because it remains esoteric and not something someone asks you about in the gym. How are current promoters advertising their comps? Are any advertising accross a spectrum of websites? What about flyers? What about holding comps in gyms or in more public places so people can watch and ask questions? What about simple exhibitions specifically for that reason?

All that being said, I'll throw out some class suggestions. I really like the NAS setup for classes. We could use it as it is or modify it slightly to better address and issues that might come up, but having a Master's class may help get older gents in. Women's classes with visible competitors would bring women in and once women are in, men will follow A Novice class is also very important I think.

[verdigriz]

I think a master section is great and I also like how you and Chris will only add the 2 weight classes which is exactly what I would do and roughly the same weight cut off I would use too. How would you score it if you had a masters section and say the winner of that section still got say 3rd over all if you did an overall? Would you just have the placings in the masters seperate or would you integrate them into an overall as well? Same question with the 2 weight divisions.

The question about how to get more ppl competing is a good one, the first thing to think of is what do ppl get out of grip training? The obvious answer of course a stronger lower arm. Moving on from that obvious conclusion the next question is who would get benifit out of a stronger arm? That answer is obvious, everyone with an arm! But specifically the majority of sport ppl, especially martial artists, climbers anyone that holds a racket..police, fire services, body guards etc...so thyere are plenty of ppl out there who would be interested in getting an edge with stronger arms/hands. One of the keys seems to be how to market that edge and how to market the next step of competing. I dont have any answers for that as its not something I know alot about..marketing..but my opinion is that a doco on tv would be the best way to reach the multitude, marketed in the right way it could potentially explode this sport in a very short time.

Brendan

[barbe705]

what age would masters be? In highland games it's 40. is that the norm for other strength sports?

[MalachiMcMullen]

I think a master section is great and I also like how you and Chris will only add the 2 weight classes which is exactly what I would do and roughly the same weight cut off I would use too. How would you score it if you had a masters section and say the winner of that section still got say 3rd over all if you did an overall? Would you just have the placings in the masters seperate or would you integrate them into an overall as well? Same question with the 2 weight divisions.

There would be separate scoring, same as every other sport divided in such a way.

what age would masters be? In highland games it's 40. is that the norm for other strength sports?

I'd think 40 would be a good #. I think that's what NAS uses too.

[Incindium]

I'll throw out there that weight classes don't solve the handsize issue. My hands are under 7.75" and I'm 300++. Not that I really care much because the only thing that it really is a disadvantage for me personally is with blobs or any wide pinching. My thickbar strength is fine even with smaller hands.

Depending on events I don't think weightclasses are really necessary in all grip contests. Why not allow it as a standard option and make it up to the promoter to decide depending on the events in the contest.

[Bob Lipinski]

No more classes. Please. Let's keep some competition alive.

You wanna get more people, do the legwork. Hold events in your contests that they would understand- Grippers, axle, rt, maybe plate pinching. Meet people and say "Hey come to my contest."

40 as an age cutoff is lame. Especially in grip stuff.

[climber511]

God I keep forgetting how young everybody is. Olympic Lifting is 35 I know. HG is 40 - not sure what Power Lifting or Strongman is. Does Strongman even have Masters - I have no clue? At the moment I can only think of 4 Geezers that compete - Hub - Hadland - Zachs dad - and I - well Odd but I don't really count him as a grip guy. The only way I'd want a Masters class is if we had a meet where there were quite a few of us old farts - winning because I'm the only one in my class doesn't mean squat to me. Something that is done in other sports in Masters is that you compete in the open classes but you keep records for the every 5 year age groups that you fall into. An example is Oly lifting - I finished close to last in an open meet several years ago but set a State Record in snatch - C&J and total for the 50 -54 age group 94 kilo class - now there was no prize for that but it was announced when I did it which was kind of cool. It seems a relatively fair way to treat Masters in meets where there simply isn't enough people to make an actual competition. Twenty years from now - when some of you guys are eligible to vote or drink or whatever you can compare yourselves to what other Masters your age and size have done in the past. Down the road I'd love to show up at a meet and see enough gray hair to have a class of our own. Olympic weightlifting and I think Powerlifting also have formula results possible - I don't think we are there yet but it makes for something fun to do running the formulas on your lifts.

The two class scoring is something I have thought about some. There are two (at least) ways I'm looking at it I think. If I have the same fixed weights in for example the medley - then a direct comparison can be made between both groups and an overall winner if you want to call him that could come from either class. But say I have smaller weights for the lightweight class - then no direct comparison could be made and the overall winner would have to come from the open class with the heavier fixed weights. For this first trial - my plan is to simply score it as two separate classes because I haven't decided on even the medley events yet, let alone if I want the same or different weights..

[MalachiMcMullen]

I'll throw out there that weight classes don't solve the handsize issue. My hands are under 7.75" and I'm 300++. Not that I really care much because the only thing that it really is a disadvantage for me personally is with blobs or any wide pinching. My thickbar strength is fine even with smaller hands.

Depending on events I don't think weightclasses are really necessary in all grip contests. Why not allow it as a standard option and make it up to the promoter to decide depending on the events in the contest.

Jesse, I don't know how to tell you this... but your hands aren't small and you will do well in grip The BW classes aren't perfect for every case, but for the most part they work fine. Most of the guys 200+ also have the bigger hands, bigger hands being 7.5"+.

No more classes. Please. Let's keep some competition alive.

You wanna get more people, do the legwork. Hold events in your contests that they would understand- Grippers, axle, rt, maybe plate pinching. Meet people and say "Hey come to my contest."

40 as an age cutoff is lame. Especially in grip stuff.

Bob, I'm with you 1,000,000,000%. I would love for grip to stick with one big Open class and not dilute competition. BUT, others don't have that competitive a spirit. It's disheartening to enter a grip competition, say it's your first comp also, and seeing that your up against guys like Jedd, Josh, The Chad, Dave, etc.

Legwork must be done, your right. That's why I am holding some off beat events. I'm hoping to get some different guys interested.

[John Beatty]

40 is Masters in Strongman and PL. I'm 41, don't feel the need for it in grip. weight classes make sense if you're going to do anything, as the average guy wouldn't get the hand size thing. Hand size makes the most sense. I'd really like to see it stay the way it is, but whatever the majority wants. The only thing I'd really stress, and that's with a background in a number of strength sports, is don't take it too far. If there's 10 classes, it'll water it down too much. Maybe lights & heavies, or am's & pro's. But if you get too many, you'll get into the PL mess with one guy or less in every group. Maybe ams & pros would make more sense.

[Incindium]

Like I said I was just throwing it out as an argument though it doesn't affect me much. Wasn't there some contests that had hand size divisions? What was the cutoff in it? I actually just measured and my hands are somewhere inbetween 7.5 and 7.75(which I'll admit is only small in comparison to my overall size).

I'm actually more for keeping everything open and not having any classes although I don't have a problem with the 2 weight class thing you guys are doing if it'll actually increase participation.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Incindium

[climber511]

I was supposed to be on the road an hour ago but my buddy called and put me on a two hour delay so I'll address what I plan to do to bring in a few more to Gripmas. I plan to call Louie (yeah the Westside Louie) and invite those boys - I really doubt if anyone shows but you can't say I'm not trying to bring in the the best of the big boys anyway. Same with the Iron House Gym in Zanesille, another gym with some very big lifters - I figure to invite some of the strongest guys around - they compete all the time and as Rex might say - they ain't scared. I'll get ahold of Brad Ardey - the strongman from last Gripmas and have him spread the word in that crowd Then I plan to hit the other local gyms and just hang some flyers out - talk to people if I can and see what happens. I thought about the newspaper and radio but that costs money I don't have right now. I also have to look at the size of my garage when I try to make a bigger meet - we had 22 last year plus the spectators and it ain't a gonna hold many more. I thought about inviting the high school athletes but then you get into the whole underage thing which I don't need. I can get a bigger venue but I have to know real soon to lock it in (it also costs real money, unlike the garage) and at the moment I have 4 people signed up so that probably won't be an option by the time I would actually know if I need it. I have some high school kids and some friends that have agreed to help load and do scores etc to try and keep things moving along. The two classes double trophy costs etc but I plan to go thru with it as an experiment that I have wanted and am willing to do in the hopes it will increase the popularity of the sport - it not - it's no big deal and I move on. I'm tired of all the arguing at this point and frankly don't give a da.. - I just want to go climb for a week and forget any grip test that isn't going to save me from falling to my death.

Edited October 10, 2008 by climber511

[vikingsrule92]

Like I said I was just throwing it out as an argument though it doesn't affect me much. Wasn't there some contests that had hand size divisions? What was the cutoff in it? I actually just measured and my hands are somewhere inbetween 7.5 and 7.75(which I'll admit is only small in comparison to my overall size).

I'm actually more for keeping everything open and not having any classes although I don't have a problem with the 2 weight class thing you guys are doing if it'll actually increase participation.

Last year at GGC it was 8" as a cutoff in the two hand classes. However 7.5"-7.75" is a pretty good sized hand as there are a few people on here doing big things with 7" or similar sized hands. However if you ask me, finger length is WAY more important than hand size, as me and Aaron (acorn) have the same sized hands but I can almost touch my fingers on the inch, and he's practically just pinching it because his fingers are stubby.

If we're going to do classes, which honestly I'm against until grip becomes a bigger sport, I think it should be Pro-am for semi-pure grip comps, and weight classes for hybrid comps like Zach's.

[MalachiMcMullen]

40 is Masters in Strongman and PL. I'm 41, don't feel the need for it in grip. weight classes make sense if you're going to do anything, as the average guy wouldn't get the hand size thing. Hand size makes the most sense. I'd really like to see it stay the way it is, but whatever the majority wants. The only thing I'd really stress, and that's with a background in a number of strength sports, is don't take it too far. If there's 10 classes, it'll water it down too much. Maybe lights & heavies, or am's & pro's. But if you get too many, you'll get into the PL mess with one guy or less in every group. Maybe ams & pros would make more sense.

Everything taken into consideration, right now, 2 classes is the most I'd be willing to offer at any comp I hold. As Chris pointed out, double trophy costs and such. I like the Pro and Am idea!!! BUT, what would constitute a "Pro" in a sport so small? I don't even know how they do it in Strongman actually. How does one go about getting their Pro card in strongman John? If the same process would fit in grip, then there is no reason Pro and Ams wouldn't work just as well, if not much better than weight classes.

I'm not trying to water the competition down as much as I am trying to increase participation. Any class divisions in a sport where 20 competitors is a BIG comp would be a tad early, but it has to start somewhere. People don't want to compete directly against the best for some reason, I'm the opposite and I know many on here are as well. But others have different ideas.

[vikingsrule92]

Zach, maybe a Pro would become a PRo after finishing top 10 in any major comp? Or just qualifying for Nats? There's a bunch of ideas you could toss around if you want to go that way. We could also do something like qualifying for Nats, if you can do certain lifts or you place top 5 or top 10 in a major comp (meaning 10-15+ people depending on whether it's top 10 or top 5)

[Brad Manion]

Zach, though it's been a few years since I competed in strongman, there's a fairly simple yet difficult way to become a pro. You must first qualify for amateur nationals, and then you can win your weight class at amateur nationals. To qualify for nationals, you have to place at a certain level local/state/regional contest, depending on whichever you decide to enter. There are other ways to earn one's pro card, but this is the only one I remember off hand.

Hope this helps.

[The Natural]

I've said it once, and I'm going to say it again.

Cheerleaders.

-Rex

[dthor]

Maybe ams & pros would make more sense.

Makes more sense to me.

I believe England has used a similar system in the past.

[jad]

40 is Masters in Strongman and PL. I'm 41, don't feel the need for it in grip. weight classes make sense if you're going to do anything, as the average guy wouldn't get the hand size thing. Hand size makes the most sense. I'd really like to see it stay the way it is, but whatever the majority wants. The only thing I'd really stress, and that's with a background in a number of strength sports, is don't take it too far. If there's 10 classes, it'll water it down too much. Maybe lights & heavies, or am's & pro's. But if you get too many, you'll get into the PL mess with one guy or less in every group. Maybe ams & pros would make more sense.

Everything taken into consideration, right now, 2 classes is the most I'd be willing to offer at any comp I hold. As Chris pointed out, double trophy costs and such. I like the Pro and Am idea!!! BUT, what would constitute a "Pro" in a sport so small? I don't even know how they do it in Strongman actually. How does one go about getting their Pro card in strongman John? If the same process would fit in grip, then there is no reason Pro and Ams wouldn't work just as well, if not much better than weight classes.

I'm not trying to water the competition down as much as I am trying to increase participation. Any class divisions in a sport where 20 competitors is a BIG comp would be a tad early, but it has to start somewhere. People don't want to compete directly against the best for some reason, I'm the opposite and I know many on here are as well. But others have different ideas.

Maybe some but a more accurate statement would be people don't want to compete on an unlevel playing field. Pro's and am's doesn't solve this at least not long-term. You might draw some in but once they find out that they'll need huge hands and tons of bodystrength to be competitive with the pros in the hybridized strongman-type grip contests, that you and some of the others are pushing, they'll quickly lose interest. Appropriate event selection and/or handsize/wt classes address this problem more effectively.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Maybe some but a more accurate statement would be people don't want to compete on an unlevel playing field. Pro's and am's doesn't solve this at least not long-term. You might draw some in but once they find out that they'll need huge hands and tons of bodystrength to be competitive with the pros in the hybridized strongman-type grip contests, that you and some of the others are pushing, they'll quickly lose interest. Appropriate event selection and/or handsize/wt classes address this problem more effectively.

That's a really good point.

[bencrush]

I still like the 2 separate weight class idea and I'll use it if I cohost another grip contest.

[John Beatty]

I'd say for pro, for the first few years, has to take a top spot, maybe top 2 spots depending on the show. Maybe top spot at a show of 10 or less, top two at 15, top 3 at 20. Or, hit a qualifying criteria at 5 standard events, i.e. close a 3, bend an Edgin, pinch "x" lbs, lift a blob, axle 300+, full pull an Inch, 1" Vbar 300, 2" vbar 200, whatever else to be decided on by a general consensus. Honestly on the above criteria, I couldn't turn pro. Not far off, but couldn't. I don't think I should qualify, at this point. Obvious USA pro's would be Chad W, Dave T, Aaron, Josh, Jedd, & Ben. Others of course, but I can never think of names when I'm trying.

Promoters could do am shows, pro shows, combo shows, or a Pro/Am. Pro/Am is what I'd go with for the BBB. Everyone can test on the same stuff, everyone competes for the same prizes. But you could split. Promoters could also offer am guys the option to enter the pro division at divided meets, but in advance only. I'd choose this route if I was going to do a pro & am show at the BBB, again, mainly as I don't think I'm pro quality, but I'd rather test myself against the best, not possibly place higher against the ams. Although, I've done Strongman comps where I competed against the pros, and there was a small turnout of pros & I would have got whipped in the ams.

In strongman you have to win a gold or platinum level am show, or win at nats as an am.

[acorn]

I'd say for pro, for the first few years, has to take a top spot, maybe top 2 spots depending on the show. Maybe top spot at a show of 10 or less, top two at 15, top 3 at 20. Or, hit a qualifying criteria at 5 standard events, i.e. close a 3, bend an Edgin, pinch "x" lbs, lift a blob, axle 300+, full pull an Inch, 1" Vbar 300, 2" vbar 200, whatever else to be decided on by a general consensus. Honestly on the above criteria, I couldn't turn pro. Not far off, but couldn't. I don't think I should qualify, at this point. Obvious USA pro's would be Chad W, Dave T, Aaron, Josh, Jedd, & Ben. Others of course, but I can never think of names when I'm trying.

Promoters could do am shows, pro shows, combo shows, or a Pro/Am. Pro/Am is what I'd go with for the BBB. Everyone can test on the same stuff, everyone competes for the same prizes. But you could split. Promoters could also offer am guys the option to enter the pro division at divided meets, but in advance only. I'd choose this route if I was going to do a pro & am show at the BBB, again, mainly as I don't think I'm pro quality, but I'd rather test myself against the best, not possibly place higher against the ams. Although, I've done Strongman comps where I competed against the pros, and there was a small turnout of pros & I would have got whipped in the ams.

In strongman you have to win a gold or platinum level am show, or win at nats as an am.

I like your ideas John. I would do this if I got enough interest. Hell I might do it without a lot of local interest just to help get things rolling. I think the idea of Pro / Amateur classes or even Pro / Open / Novice or something similiar would be better than weight divisions, age or hand size for that matter at this point IMHO. I think it would definately help with the opportunity for guys doing their first contests or just getting started to enter contests and possibly win some prizes vs competing directly with the guys who have been training at this stuff for a few years. It also will mean more work for the promoters, but I wouldnt mind if I could get more guys to come to the contests.

- Aaron

[MalachiMcMullen]

I'd say for pro, for the first few years, has to take a top spot, maybe top 2 spots depending on the show. Maybe top spot at a show of 10 or less, top two at 15, top 3 at 20. Or, hit a qualifying criteria at 5 standard events, i.e. close a 3, bend an Edgin, pinch "x" lbs, lift a blob, axle 300+, full pull an Inch, 1" Vbar 300, 2" vbar 200, whatever else to be decided on by a general consensus. Honestly on the above criteria, I couldn't turn pro. Not far off, but couldn't. I don't think I should qualify, at this point. Obvious USA pro's would be Chad W, Dave T, Aaron, Josh, Jedd, & Ben. Others of course, but I can never think of names when I'm trying.

Promoters could do am shows, pro shows, combo shows, or a Pro/Am. Pro/Am is what I'd go with for the BBB. Everyone can test on the same stuff, everyone competes for the same prizes. But you could split. Promoters could also offer am guys the option to enter the pro division at divided meets, but in advance only. I'd choose this route if I was going to do a pro & am show at the BBB, again, mainly as I don't think I'm pro quality, but I'd rather test myself against the best, not possibly place higher against the ams. Although, I've done Strongman comps where I competed against the pros, and there was a small turnout of pros & I would have got whipped in the ams.

In strongman you have to win a gold or platinum level am show, or win at nats as an am.

I like your ideas John. I would do this if I got enough interest. Hell I might do it without a lot of local interest just to help get things rolling. I think the idea of Pro / Amateur classes or even Pro / Open / Novice or something similiar would be better than weight divisions, age or hand size for that matter at this point IMHO. I think it would definately help with the opportunity for guys doing their first contests or just getting started to enter contests and possibly win some prizes vs competing directly with the guys who have been training at this stuff for a few years. It also will mean more work for the promoters, but I wouldnt mind if I could get more guys to come to the contests.

- Aaron

Taking into account Josh's point, I still think Pro/Am is a good way to go. Better, as Aaron said, than BW or handsize.

Josh, I completely see your point. However, look at most Pro Strongmen. How many are under 6'? How many under 250? Granted, there are LW Pros but who do most people see on TV? The big guys in WSM. Also Granted that Mariusz is not 6' and now can claim to be the best competing strongman in WSM history. How many guys look at those gents and don't think exactly the same thing you mentioned about what would become the majority of the Grip Pro class? That hasn't kept guys out of strongman. If and when grip progresses to a more mainstream level, people will be seeing guys like Dave, Chad and Jedd more often than they would be seeing someone like myself. Even if I somehow become a top 5 competitor.

I like the Pro/Am idea and I would support it. I like the idea of winning a contest or coming top 3 in a bigger contest better than qualifying standards. I say, if you win a competition or do well enough for a top 3 placing in a bigger comp, you've more than shown your strength.

[Bob Lipinski]

With the pro/am deal now, we aren't gonna change anything. The pool of competitors is too small. Eventually everyonce will be a pro because it is the same guys hitting 3-4 shows a year anyways.

I've hated novice no matter what the sport.

[MalachiMcMullen]

With the pro/am deal now, we aren't gonna change anything. The pool of competitors is too small. Eventually everyonce will be a pro because it is the same guys hitting 3-4 shows a year anyways.

I've hated novice no matter what the sport.

I agree on the first point completely. It may become viable later on when the sport actually has 500-1000+ regular competitors like other sports. For now it's best kept completely open or with BW divisions.

Just curious, why do you hate novice classes?