Can you grip like a chimp?

[Guest Jeff0]

Science North in Ontario is currently displaying Jane Goodal's "Discovering Chimpanzees" exhibit.  One of the displays is a kiosk that lets visitors test their grip strength against that of assorted primates.  I live too far to visit, but I'm intensely curious -- how would a CoC's squeeze compare to a gorilla's?  None of the photos I can find feature a readable image of the dial face.

http://www.sciencenorth.on.ca/photoar....ip2.jpg

Oh, and hello - I'm a newcomer and newbie.  I started working on my grip recently just to help with my deadlifting, but became addicted.  

[Guest DavidHW]

Hi Jeff.

I'm not an expert, but I did a little graduate work in primate studies. IIRC, adult male chimps are, on average, about five times stronger pound-for-pound than a man. Adult female chimps are around three times stronger. Adult male chimps in the wild run between 80 and 120 pounds, even heavier in captivity. So even your "Joe Average" chimpanzee in the wild has the strength of a well-conditioned, lean, heavily muscled 500 lb man.

Bottom line, you or I or anyone else -- including the best Strongmen in the world -- would be in a world of trouble in a fight with a chimp. As far as grip goes, I doubt that there's a man alive even 25% as strong as a wild chimp.

Gorillas, which you mention, are even stronger. :-)

David

[Guest champs]

Fully matured silver back males have been estimated to possess between 17-25x the strength of the average human male depending on the motion. The improvements in strength aren't due the extra pounds of muscle but to the superior biomechanics of gorilla limbs, muscles and joints, superior bone density and a thick bone structure for tendon and soft tissue attachments, far denser muscle tissue and mitochondria  concentrations, and a central nervous system that allows for substantially higher amount of fibre activation in a shorter period of time. Humans have lost all these adaptations over time as we began to rely more on our brains than our brawn

[Guest CalvinP]

I have post this info before but I 'll post again here. Once I have seen I silver back Gorillar on PBS casually strolled up a big bamboo stalk. Passed half way he then grapped the next section and proceeded to snap it in half so he can get to the tender top. My estimate was the diameter of that particular section must 2.5"-3". He must have weighed near 400# too. I think the reason he did not go up futher was at 400# plus you can't risk falling, because the higher the weaker stalk will be. Tell me how hard it is to do the same feat

[Guest Harlan Jacobs]

All that power and no protein, It's just not right !

[mobsterone]

Right there's a market - Steve sells Bambbo protein only $400.00 a tin. get ya bamboo protein right here, 20000 Gorillas can't be wrong

[Guest DavidHW]

FWIW, appropriate to this discussion:

http://www.baylorhealth.com/proceedings/13_4/13_4_flatt.htm

Scientific, but non-technical, paper describing everything you ever wanted to know about the evolution, nature, and mechanics of gripping. I did not know, for instance, that grip is strongest at 3 PM -- now that I think about it, that's about right.

I can also second the recommendation of Napier's classic work on the hand; it should be available at your local bookstore. Fascinating, absorbing book that you won't put down.

David

[Nathan Say]

I've said this before & I'll say it again, those oldtime caveman-types could literally tear a dead animal limb from limb with their bare hands according to some anthropologist. They had huge bones, etc. A 120lb female chimpanzee EASILY deadlifted 600lbs. I'm assuming she had no training experience either?

[amaury]

I can't really imagine a chimp's deadlift...I mean with those long arms the weight must be at 4" from the floor in the final position ?? Must gives them a competitive edge in the deadlift anyway

And what about the concentration curl ?

[Rick Walker]

Last night on Animal Planet they had a special on the top 10 strongest animals in the world and compared human feats to that of animals.

They said for a man to lift as much as a full grown silver back, we would have to press 2 Volkswagons over our head at the same time.

Scary-

Rick Walker :hehe

[Guest Harlan Jacobs]

That's it !   From now on I 'm eatting leaves , banana's, and bamboo.

[Guest Jeff0]

Anecdotal vs measured:

I've found many sources of information regarding primate strength, but none that give numbers based on experimentation.  Other than the deadlift test and the famous dynamometer pull, there's nothing on the web or in my college's library that cites actual controlled studies.  It's all anecdotal.  If the creators of the Goodal exhibit didn't pull their grip data out of a hat, then studies HAVE been performed, and perhaps the curators could point me in their direction.  ...If I lived close to Ontario so I could ask them.  I was hoping curiosity might entice an Ontario GripBoard member into doing my legwork.  :hehe

As for the cause of the difference, I don't believe it's due to lost adaptations -- at least not primarily so.  The potential for full primate strength *is* present in modern man, but for some reason cannot be accessed except during extreme distress, psychosis or the effect of psychotropic drugs.  

I know several people who have experienced the phenomenon first hand.  A former cop buddy of mine had a psych case rip his hinged handcuffs apart and off his wrists.  I've seen them: they are mangled and the metal has tooth marks.  :crazy  Mike said the (skinny) guy took 5-6 men to subdue and was throwing them around like tenpins.  

One of my mother's friends wrecked her Mustang in the early 70's.  She was dazed but not injured, so she opened the door, got out and wandered to the other car to check on its occupants.  When the ambulance/police came, they didn't believe she had gotten out on her own because "whoever" had opened the crumpled door had to tear about a 6 inch gash in the body steel to do it.

Not first hand:  

On a true crime show I saw years ago, one segment showed the camera view in a jewelry store during a robbery.  The sole customer was pudgy housewife-ly woman who looked to be in her late 30's.  She was standing next to a counter a little under the height of her chest.  When the gunman burst in she jumped clean over that counter with no wind-up -- an effortless bunny hop.  I have a 35" vertical leap and would be hard pressed to match that.  

Back to the exhibit: getting solid data for other primates would give me an idea of what we should be achieving if we didn't have the mental restriction -- though I know the comparison difficulties created by differing leverages, etc.  FWIW, nance Avigliano has squatted 565 st 132lb.  A 600 4" ROM partial DL probably wouldn't phase her.

[Guest champs]

Even in those situations it's still a matter of physical limitations of the structure of the human body, alot of the adaptions have been lost as can be proven by the biology. There is some interesting information however, I read a study a little while ago that was discussing throw backs to primate evolution. Human babies only a few hours old have the grip strength to hold their body weight suspended for over 10 seconds, but not support their heads. Babies only 4 days old were capable of hanging holds of upwards of 30-40 seconds. Interestingly, within weeks the innate arm development tapers off and the focus is moved to the other body structure such as the legs. The over development of the arms and the forearms in relation to the legs etc at birth is a interesting link to the past. Babies born as mini captains of crush as a necessity of survival

[ChrisJames]

I'm sure Arthur Jones once did a study on grip and said that if each facet of forearm and hand strength were strengthened to the maximum the results would be amazing.On a par with a chimpanzee's.

Herman Goerner's one hand deadlift with 727 lbs from the floor gives us some indication of man's potential.I think our own social ideas , belief's and mental barrier's are our downfall.We put too many limitations on ourselves,thank God for people like Brookfield , Sorin, Horne, Henry,Roark , etc to keep pushing these boundaries.

Chris

[Guest CalvinP]

Primates sure have much more natural strength. A truck driver I knew had a pet monkey weighed about 15-20 # . One time he went mad and shaked the whole full size pick up truck by the bed. Then proceeded to tossed a used 18 wheeler's radiator across the room. As a youngster I studied Kung Fu and there the master also had a pet monkey. And one day it turned on us and beat everyone he came into contact into a bloody mess, ripping the gears to shredds. These are tough material to tear...Black belts, white belt, orange...ran for their lives (so much for real life fight!) this monkey was 15 #.

For fun reading

In my native land in the Far East, we have a legend about people who tread the forest with bamboo sections around their forearms. The legend said: If the Chimp get a hold of your arm you stuck until noon, before it'd kill you. So the bamboo sections alllow you to pull your forearms and run (don't ask me why noon and not 3:00pm) . Well! it's just a legend but it tells me the chimp's grip has inspired such legend. We call Chimnpazee: the savage man (of forest)...hey I told you just for fun readin'

[RSW]

In my native land in the Far East, we have a legend about people who tread the forest with bamboo sections around their forearms. The legend said: If the Chimp...

        I thought Chimps lived in Africa.

[Rick Walker]

Other notables from the show:

to equal a male grizzly bear's strength, the human man would have to be over 7 feet in height and weigh 500+ pounds with extremely low body fat.

A certain type of ant's strength (cant remember what type) would be equal to us picking a pickup truck up over our heads and carrying it 8 miles.

a rhino beetle-they were the #1 on the list.  Their strength would be equal to a human picking a 10 ton tank over their head.

an Eagle-if you want to talk grip strength-they are capable of lifting 4 times their body weight off the ground with their talons and flying with it.  For a 200 pound man-that would be like grasping 800 pounds of dead weight-Not on a nice olympic bar, but like grabing a bull by the hide and ripping it off the ground!

FREAKY!

Rick Walker :hehe

[Rick Walker]

Forgot one-

The tiger-capable of carrying a domestic cow-anywhere from 600 to over 1000 pounds-over a 10 foot wall.  Try that.  Put 1000 pounds of metal scrap in a bag and climb a 10 foot wall with it!

Again, FREAKY!

Rick Walker :hehe

[Roark]

I have apologized for mangling those handcuffs,

and I would appreciate the matter being dropped.

We were all young once.

[Guest rockblaster]

While we are on the subject of animal strength, I recently e-mailed a scientist in Central America regarding the talon strength of the Harpy Eagle (my favorite bird) and he said that their grip was strong enough to crush bones.  I have seen this bird in the wild and it makes other eagles look small by comparison.  

I have also heard that scientists, several years ago, surmised that a male silverback could bend steel bars(similar to those used in jail cells) into a circle.  They can also be as strong as 10 olympic lifters.

[Guest CalvinP]

Not too long ago  a team of archeologists have discovered a skeleton remains of an unknown extincted species of ape near North of Viet Nam and Laos. This remain indicated the apes must be near 9' tall. So the legend wasn't too far off huh? Like... if you read, there were tigers and bears in Africa, and Lion (African type) in North America before. Where they now? Extincted of course! In fact if you go to down town Los Angeles to a museum there near the tar-pit, you 'll see the lions' skeletons. And they are bigger than their African counterpart  

[Drassk]

On the topic of human strength under psychosis I've got a pretty good one.  A friend of mine works in a mental institution and sees some pretty weird stuff going on but the most amazing thing he's seen was a feat of strength by a 120lb woman.  The patients there wear pants made really thick denim, the kind you find used in work overalls and such (might be canvas).  It's some pretty tough stuff, made pretty much because it's impossible to damage it.  They don't want people freaking out and figuring out some way to use their clothes in a nasty way (noose?).  Anyways, this woman RIPPED her pants off.  Not by unbuttoning but she literally grabbed two handfuls of fabric on her legs and then ripped them off of her.  At 120 lbs that's pretty impressive to me...####, I'd consider it a world class feat to see anyone rip this stuff just by grabbing it.  Sometimes I wish I could be just a little crazy for a few hours a week...

[Tom of Iowa2]

There was a special on MAXIMUM(TLC? or Discover channel?) security prisons and it went into some detail of a prisoner described as having SUPER strength.

They showed a mildly retarded  VERY muscular african american.he was doing dips on this bedside.Very muscular-Ripped.His musculature looking very 'dense' and hardened.Absolute guess- but perhaps less than 200lbs,not real big.I also believe he may have been diagnosd as schizophrenic?

They said he could break through ANY hand cuffs,leg irons and ripped through any type of  straight jacket and of course any type of leather bed restraints.The guards were all much bigger than him...some definitely worked out(big arms/tight sleeves ..intimidating men)These very large ,muscular looking guards(some appearing to be around 300lbs) just described it as 'Super strength'.....I think they may have indicated that along with his obvious muscularity it had something to do with his mental state.

They were just shaking there heads,as if totally in awe,of this mans strength and of course they had a especially trained,especially large,padded up and armored and helmeted team to take him down.

 I wonder what he could do with the INCH.... ??? I noticed he had large hands :p

[Rick Walker]

Perhaps these feats have something to do with the power of the mind.  

If one is crazy enough-I mean crazy-he really has no control.  He can approach things with absolutely no fear.  This means, he doesn't know he can't break hand cuffs, he doesn't know he can't tear straight jackets-he simply does it.

Think about it-when one (that is sane) approaches a task that is he has never done and it is deemed impossible-99% of the time that individual will fail.  Fear is a part of life and often stops us cold in big attempts.

How many of us havent approached a loaded bar that we are about to squat with a little fear that it is going to crush us??

These people who have diseased minds have no fear.  Just like animals.  I have seen my parents 12 pound terrier take off after a huge black bear.  No fear.  When something comes between a grizzly and her cubs-she attacks-regardless of what it is-and the attack is a blind furry of rage.  No fear.

People with no fear attack things with 0 doubt.  The mind is not the broken link.  When a car falls onto a child the mother rushes up and pulls it off them-no thinking=no fear.

The possible link between us and them??

Rick Walker :hehe

[Guest el4n]

I've herd the mother pulling the car off a baby many times, always used to express the amazing strength that people have in dire situations, from extremem adrenaline or other explinations like this.

I was wondering if this feat has actually ever been documents or any feats like this? Maybe even in local newspapers or somthing. I think it would be interesting to read about.

If anybody knows of any please post!