Overtraining: Anyone Paying Attention?

[Sybersnott]

After reading Russell Latterman's post on being stuck on the same plateau for over five months, I was curious.

That turned to anger.

I identified his problem immediately, and can sum it up in one word:  OVERTRAINING.

If you do grip work EVERY DAY.... what do you expect?!?

I've been preaching TWO TIMES A WEEK.  That's it. That's all.  No more than that.

But apparently..... nobody is listening.  Did he have to wait FIVE MONTHS before getting on this board and claiming he has gone absolutely NOWHERE on his grip training?  No, he didn't.  

Then.... and this is where I lost my cool..... he states, "Maybe I can do this on Monday, this on Tuesday, something else on Wednesday, etc."  NO NO NO!!!!

TWO TIMES A WEEK.  Here would be a sample of your week:  (for those of you keeping score at home)

Monday:  Worked my grip HARD.  Did some gripper work to warm up then hit my grip machine.  Man!.... do my hands hurt!  (This is my LIGHT day!)

Tuesday:  Off

Wednesday:  Off

Thursday:  This is my HEAVY day.  After a light warm-up, did some severe negatives and some wrist work and some pinch gripping.  I'm done now - my hands are fried!

Friday:  Off

Saturday:  Off

Sunday:  Off  (I went to church today, and asked God for "grip strength"!)

Got it?  Again:  two times a week.  Training everyday will NOT help you.  Just ask Russell....  he'll tell ya.

[Bill Piche]

Ahhh Snott, blow  your nose. I would never have certified if I hadn't increased my frequency to 5-10 times per week.  According to you, I was overtrained as I gained strength and closed a 3 with either hand. He just needs a progression plan.

[Bill Piche]

Just to show how everyone is different and stating something like it is fact is wrong....

I overtrain easily with severe negatives.  And, don't recommend them for most (although I am sure some thrive on them). But, if I don't do them, I can train often provided the volume is not too high.

Keep an open nose...errr...mind.

[Bearcat 74]

OK,here's my WO:

Sun nite: Tx8-10 #1x6-8 #2x 3 400 #3 X1, or I skip warmups and cold close 400.

Mon: See above

Tues: Grippers HARD, 12-15 sets, 2-6 force closes and holds with #4.  Just hold out to 1"

Wed: See Sun and Mon Wo's

Thurs: Same as Sun, Mon, Wed

Fri: Cold close of 400 #3 or 5-6 reps with #2

Sat: Work......guess what....grip oriented

Sun: Work......guess what......grip oriented

I've taken A LOT of advice from some good friends to help me find something that works, when it stops/slows, this ol'boy changes.  Now have I ever overtrained, yes.  When, doing grip 2x per week 1 hard,1 moderate day.  According to you, since I do NO "severe negatives" and I DON'T have a plate loaded machine, in the 10months I've beeen training grip, I should be working on the #2 or the BBM.  Well, I'm not.  I've done pretty well.  I've changed things up, ####, I've done grip fairly hard 4 times per week.  When I closed Wannagrip's Elite, I did 2 singles and 2 more attempts that day.  Next day I closed it again, then I tried 2-3 attempts 2 times per week for two weeks.  Plus, reps with the #3, and anvil work.  Was I overtrained, somewhat, I took a few days off, eased into it, and came back stronger.

Now, back to my point.  You do NOT have a end all solution to grip work.  I do NOT have an end all solution to grip work.  NO ONE does.  People need to see what works for them, and see what their body tells them.  Don't ever cut down on somebodies routine, your's isn't better than mine, mine isn't better than your's.  Mine works for me, your's works for you.  Now, are you going to tell me that I've messed up?  Go ahead, it'll go in one ear, and trickle right out the other.  

Forgot to mention so I'll edit, I usually pinch hard on Tuesday too.  I've been doing some light anvil work or something else open hand on Fri, but light work.

Not trying to be an ####### here, just reading your post, well that turned to anger.  Train hard and train smart.

(Edited by Bearcat 74 at 10:40 pm on Oct. 20, 2001)

[gripmaniac]

I've been training my grip 2-3 times per week since I started 7 months ago and have been making continual steady progress.  

Personally, (and this is merely my o-p-i-n-i-o-n) I don't believe training any more frequently than this would work for ME as it would leave me with insufficient recovery time between grip workouts.

Grip training is no different from weight training - it's a matter of finding what works for the idividual.  This requires experimentation, continual monitoring,  and an OPEN mind as we are all different.

I may not have many or all the answers (yet) - but I do know that:

"Doing more of what doesn't work.....doesn't work"

 

Just my AUD 0.02 worth....

[Bill Piche]

Heath makes the point better than me.

To each their own. People need to figure out what works for them. Sticking to a program with a planned progression is what works. Whatever that program is.

I don't claim what I do is right. In fact, it's pretty bizzare if you ask me. But, it worked....for me. Go figure!

[Guest Luke Reimer]

Considering Heath's frequency (going pretty much every day) and intensity (max singles, forced closes, holds), I'm staggered by the _volume_ he gets away with. Sets, sets, sets! Wow...

I envy the ability to do this sort of thing, but clearly I don't have it (at least right now). I think that I'm going to have to cut back on one of the variables... maybe volume first.

[Solan]

I squat several times daily, every day of the week.

True, no weight on the bar - no bar, even. But I squat very frequently without getting overtrained.

I also jumped down from the roof a few days ago. My legs are still sore. I guess it's a kind of overtraining, even though it's far between each time I do such things.

All in all, I'd say factors like intensity, frequency, volume and adaption all need to be taken into account. Going all-our on intensity, frequency and volume will lead to overtraining. Lowering frequency will get you out of that rut. But so will lowering intensity or volume.

[Roark]

Training is like dieting; if it works for you, how can it

be the incorrect procedure if you remain healthy?

Obviously, discovering the rest period necessary

between training sessions is the key; otherwise

we could workout non-stop every waking moment.

It seems to me that unlike other body parts, we use

our hands for most every activity (unlike the pecs,

for example). So they get less rest.

The key is progress. If you are not progressing,

you are either standing still, or regressing. If regressing,

and you are healthy, then it's a safe assumption you

are not training correctly. And, just as we would not

continue to employ a personal trainer who was causing

us to go backwards, so we should not continue such

a course on our own- regardless if it works for someone

else.

[Bill Piche]

Luke, Heath really only has one heavy day per week.  If you'll note the other days he works up to a 400ip #3 for  single.  To most of the rest of us, probably the equivalent to us working up to a single with a #1.  He can do a 452 #3 like a toy.  This just shows diff's as well, as most of us don't have the strength to close a 400Ip #3 like it was a casual thing.  

[Bearcat 74]

Luke, Wannagrip's right.  I only have the one heavy day, that's usually Tuesday.  I hope it didn't sound like I was bragging, because I wasn't.  I was just putting up what I usually do thru the week.  Now the pinch training, anvil, or open hand may very some.  But, 9 out of 10 weeks the gripper works the same.  

Train hard, train smart.

[Tom Black]

    Looking at Heath’s workout and Wannagrip’s “translation” made me realize that a better way to describe a workout might be to describe it in terms of intensity.  Looking at Heath closing the #3 everyday looks like over training, however, his intensity on this repetition must be “medium” because, as Wannagrip describes, it is like closing a #1 for the rest of us.  The problem I had with everyday training is I jumped right into the Master everyday, which I would describe as “medium-heavy” for me.  What I needed was “medium” or even “medium-light” at first, working my way up to “medium” every day.

[Bill Piche]

Yup, Tom.

When you think of Joe Kinney doing two workouts a week. BUT!  He was doing 50 negatives (severe) per hand TWICE a week! No one has matched that yet.

[Bill Piche]

Also, again keep an open mind. I thank those like Kevin Fulton for helping provide the info/perspectives/training results that I could use and apply to my own training.

[Guest Luke Reimer]

Heath, Wannagrip, thanks for clarifying about intensity levels. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I read Heath's program--I already knew that Heath's #3s are nothing for him to close. Maybe I subconsciously extrapolated his Tuesday routines across the other days. One heavy day a weak sounds a lot more manageable, but I'm still impressed with volume that's 15 sets deep and includes several forced closes on the #4.

Heath, before forcing the #4 closed for a hold, and then doing a partial eccentric out to 1 inch, do you generally first attempt a postive to see if you are getting any closer? And then force the finish after you're convinced the handles won't move any closer? Or do you just slam them shut against your leg first thing, and then try to keep them closed? I'm also curious how many sets into your routine (since you have so many Tuesday sets) you go with your other grippers before picking up the #4. I can't see how you would have much left for the #4 if you went to it fairly late in your routine.

Once one factors in your unusual crushing strength, Heath, it almost seems as though you have only one grip workout a week, with some active rest in between (Mind you, I don't imagine active rest could get a whole lot more active without ceasing to be rest!). Thanks for explaining. I've been beating the life out of my hands attempting singles with my #E every day, and now more recently, ever other day or so (And I'm still losing ground). That's defnitely enough of that.

[Guest kINGPIN]

This reminds me of stories of all the lifters in Arnolds day that used to lift three times a week but only once did they go heavy the others were medium/light.  Don't know where I read that but there must be something behind it if it works.  Me personally, I stick to my 2 times a week grip training as it is working for me (at the moment).

[Bearcat 74]

Luke, I do Tx10 #1x8 #2x3x2 or I'll do a set of 5 or so.  Then I'll go 400 single, 420 single then attempt the #4.  I really slam all my warmups, this seems to help with explosion.  I sometimes switch up the 420 and 452, I've been thinking going 400x2 420 x1 or vise versa before my attempts.  Yes, I always set and close to see if I've made any ground with the #4, then I'll close it with my other hand and hold.  I'll do this 2-3 times.  Then I'm usually done with the #4, but last week, and maybe this week I'll just force it shut 2-3 more times and hold it, not caring how close I can come.  After the 1st two attempts, it's useless to even expect to come close.  Then I'll go to strapholds and overcrushes.  I take about 3 mins between warm ups and 5-7 sometimes 10mins between work sets.  Good luck with the Elite, those things are monsters!!  When I closed my #3, I had to back off to one day per week.  I guess I needed a change of pace.  

(Edited by Bearcat 74 at 2:29 pm on Oct. 21, 2001)

[Sybersnott]

Immediately after creating this topic, I decided to jump on the phone and call Russell to find out just EXACTLY what the problem was.  I won't divulge what we talked about, but it went a LOT further than being stuck at a plateau for five months.

Initailly, I was angry at the fact that someone was grip training for five months and making no progress - then getting on this board and asking, "What's wrong with me?".  I believe newbies (and what I should have done was to direct the topic AT newbies in particular) jump headfirst right into grip training without much thought - do WAY too much of it too fast.... then complain about not making any progress in their training.

Can we agree on TWO TIMES A WEEK (for newbies) to start?  Hey, if you can swallow that.... then and only then try to increase the frequency.  You don't try to squat 500 pounds the VERY first time you get under the bar, do you?  Of course not.

WannaGrip - I'm trying to help Russell, NOT tear him down.  I just got fed up with the "same old same old" that appears on this forum without fail.  Waiting five months is too long to wait and then get on this forum to ask the question, "Why me?".  WannaGrip, call me at 1-877-571-7486, leave your name and number - and let's find a solution that we can ALL live with.  Like I said, I'm trying to help.  That's the reason I created the topic, and the reason I called Russell after I did.

[Bearcat 74]

Quote: from Sybersnott on 6:53 pm on Oct. 21, 2001

 I just got fed up with the "same old same old" that appears on this forum without fail.

 

What would that be?  

The same old; well, if it's not working change your routine.  Or the same old; doing grip 2x per week, with "severe negatives", is the only way?  

Here's a solution I can live with; offer people advice, don't tell them that this is the only way.  If someone does grip everyday and makes gains, good, if they slow give them some ideas.  One idea would be switch to 2 days per week or one day per week.  Here's a question for you, what happens when someone stops making progress with 2 times per week?  Is it time to throw in the towel?  

Here's something about a newbie that I saw for myself.  The guy I lift with back home is 6'0" 145lbs and had never done gripwork.  He used wriststraps for all back work.  He got a T and  #1, he sat at work all day everyday and closed the T and #1.  When he got them he could close the #1 for 3 singles.  He did this for about 2-3 months, he started with me on strapholds.  In 2 weeks of doing grip everyday, one hard the rest light, he closed a 290inlb #2, in another 2 months he was doing 4 reps going in a set close, set close cadence.  

My advice to new guys or anybody else, get some grip tools, set up a workout, and get to work.  I don't care if it's 1x per week or 20x per week, if it works, run with it.  If it doesn't work, stops, or slows....CHANGE.  

I think I'm about done with my little soapbox here.    

[Bill Piche]

Actually, this same thing happened more or less with the two guys I work grip with at work. Both are now closing a BBM.  In about a month's time.

[the swiss]

actually, I had been stuck on progress with the grippers for about 3 months (while gaining strength in other grip areas) until I tried kevin fulton's overtraining workouts: I now do one "regular" intense workout and 3 days later an "overtraining" workout where I do about 40 explosive closes with #2 plus grip endurance training. then 3 days rest. basically (david Horne suggested this and I agree completely now) I think every 3-4 months one should change its workout so that the body does not get used to it and not gain as much anymore.

done that for 3 weeks and the results are astounding!

train hard

david

[Kevin Fulton]

David,

Glad you and others have had success following similiar routines that myself, David Horne, and others have outlined.

You referred to my workouts as "overtraining workouts" which brings up a point that should be clarified.  Almost any workout (within reason) WILL NOT lead to overtraining.  At least not overtraining in the long term which is the real problem.  It is the LACK of recovery time that leads to overtraining.  The amount of recovery time needed varies between individuals following the same workout AND the amount of recovery time will vary within an individual depending on his/her level and how well conditioned they are.

THe high volume workouts that I did to close the #3 did not overtrain me long term.  I only did this workout every 6-8 days.  The first couple of days after the workout, I had trouble closing the #1 but after 4-5 more days rest, I was back stronger that before.  I know that others seem to thrive on less volume and more frequency.  I think each person need to find what works best for them and be open minded.  I think it is wrong for people to suggest that we need to come up with and agree on some universal training protocal that we can all abide by.  It's just not a black and white issue.

One last point is that once you have severely overtrained for a long period of time, it may take months to recover or return to normal.  I know this from my own experiences and I'm sure some of you may have found the same.  One problem is that once this happens, some people think that an extra few days of rest or a few weeks of lighter workouts may turn things around but it might take a much longer recovery period.  All this depends on the severity of the overtraining.

[Guest]

Here’s my take on the whole exercise enigma (which it’s not).

Understand what the purpose of exercise is, how the body reacts to exercise and how your individual genetics influence these factors. Understand the theory of overload, the use it or lose it principal etc. Understand that exercise is specific (If you run you will not get better at swimming).

Exercise is only the stimulus if the stimulus isn’t strong enough nothing will happen. The body only produces something new (stronger muscles) if it’s needs it. The body doesn’t respond to reps or sets. How would a muscle know how many times it closed a gripper? It only responds to the intensity of stimulus, if strong enough it gets bigger, if not nothing. Genetics make you an individual. It determines how much stimulus YOU need. HOW LONG YOU NEED TO REST etc.

The difference between the great of grip and those not even able to close the trainer are their genetically pre determined ability to recover. Some are masters at recuperation they can handle many heavy workouts a week. Some are complete morons at recovery (hard gainers). They can only handle one or less workouts per week.

The more resistance the body can lift/close etc. the more stress the body experiences. The more advanced you are in training the more stress your body will have to absorb and recuperate from. In most cases it would be a mistake to increase training volume or training frequency the more advanced you get.

By understanding these factors you can design an informed workout strategy.

There is no magic bullet in exercise only general rules. Understand them, apply them, experiment and find what works best for YOU!

[Sybersnott]

Did Russell have to wait FIVE MONTHS before getting on this forum to tell everybody that he was NOT making any gains?  Would YOU wait that long before deciding to make a change?!?  #### NO.  

And that's what I was upset about.  Wasted time.... both in making grip progress and in training/learning.  You're right.  I don't have all the answers.  But then again, I wouldn't wait that long before I figured out that what was working for me WASN'T WORKING AT ALL!!!!

[AnimalCage]

Just my two cents, especially for newbies:

If your hands are not accustomed to being worked hard, give them some time to become acclimated to the workouts.  It's worth starting slow to avoid injury.  I've had to take my second break in 5 months to nurse a strained tendon.  Needless to say, my progress has been slowed because of my initial enthusiasm.

Engage Brain before Gripper!!