Double Overhand Question.

[Jaz]

For a while i thought double overhand was like double underhand (what i use) except that instead of levering the wrists down, you lever them up. After experimenting with it i think i realize that it is basically just a chest crush against the ends of the nail, very little wrists involvement. Am i right? I just cant see someone upward levering a 15lb sledge from the end of the handle, which would IMO be very helpful if your actually bending a red nail like that (wrists). SInce all the red benders i see ue DO i think its pretty much all in the pecs.

[gazza]

For a while i thought double overhand was like double underhand (what i use) except that instead of levering the wrists down, you lever them up. After experimenting with it i think i realize that it is basically just a chest crush against the ends of the nail, very little wrists involvement. Am i right? I just cant see someone upward levering a 15lb sledge from the end of the handle, which would IMO be very helpful if your actually bending a red nail like that (wrists). SInce all the red benders i see ue DO i think its pretty much all in the pecs.

Yep tiss all in the pecs no wrists give me your ady and ill send you a KOASB to bend with pure pec power

The terms called folding and is easy just take any bar from a 60d to a fantastic shiny or g5 to big g8 or stronger the just apply pressure to the ends and watch it fold Uri Gellar is a specialist at it

[Jaz]

For a while i thought double overhand was like double underhand (what i use) except that instead of levering the wrists down, you lever them up. After experimenting with it i think i realize that it is basically just a chest crush against the ends of the nail, very little wrists involvement. Am i right? I just cant see someone upward levering a 15lb sledge from the end of the handle, which would IMO be very helpful if your actually bending a red nail like that (wrists). SInce all the red benders i see ue DO i think its pretty much all in the pecs.

Yea this must be it, i just bent a blue with this style. (My PR with DU)

[Jaz]

For a while i thought double overhand was like double underhand (what i use) except that instead of levering the wrists down, you lever them up. After experimenting with it i think i realize that it is basically just a chest crush against the ends of the nail, very little wrists involvement. Am i right? I just cant see someone upward levering a 15lb sledge from the end of the handle, which would IMO be very helpful if your actually bending a red nail like that (wrists). SInce all the red benders i see ue DO i think its pretty much all in the pecs.

Yep tiss all in the pecs no wrists give me your ady and ill send you a KOASB to bend with pure pec power

The terms called folding and is easy just take any bar from a 60d to a fantastic shiny or g5 to big g8 or stronger the just apply pressure to the ends and watch it fold Uri Gellar is a specialist at it

Ah i see. Are you serious? Has anyone bent the king yet?

[matthcarl]

Gazza is the best On a more serious note...

While the chest is involved, I think I do more of the driving with my shoulders and triceps than chest. I have said before that I have a very weak bench press, but have become halfway decent at DO anyway. I will be the first to admit my wrists aren't that strong, but bending is it's own art and it isn't just a 'chest crush.' For that matter, a lot of DU benders do not move their wrists much either. It is just the position of the hands while the upper body does the work.

If you want more wrist strength, try heslep style with the arms way out in front of the body. I hear a lot of people saying reverse is a better test of wrist strength...I'm not so sure. I think I use all my arm/shoulder/lat muscles on the one side.

[gazza]

Just because the wrists dont move that much it dont mean there not involved.

Give a 600lb bench presser a say big g8 and wrap the bar for him and ask him to just push in on the ends useing all that 600lbs bench power and without wrist strength not wrist strength that support that big bench but wrists built through haveing to stop the bar torgueing and snapping the wrists wrists built througfh bending i know whats gonna happen to that big g8 bolt zilch,zippo,nadda

Take away the kink phase of the bend to make it fairer then same thing prekink a big g8 bolt or big bar and see if the big bencher can put it under 2inches from the prekink.

Theres more to DO style bending than just a big bench and muscles lots on here proving that

[Jaz]

Gazza is the best On a more serious note...

While the chest is involved, I think I do more of the driving with my shoulders and triceps than chest. I have said before that I have a very weak bench press, but have become halfway decent at DO anyway. I will be the first to admit my wrists aren't that strong, but bending is it's own art and it isn't just a 'chest crush.' For that matter, a lot of DU benders do not move their wrists much either. It is just the position of the hands while the upper body does the work.

If you want more wrist strength, try heslep style with the arms way out in front of the body. I hear a lot of people saying reverse is a better test of wrist strength...I'm not so sure. I think I use all my arm/shoulder/lat muscles on the one side.

When i said chest i meant its mainly a crush. I felt very strong lat contraction which is possibly even more intense then the pec involvement. the pec movement isnt at all bench press related, i can 170lb 10lb more than i weigh (not much to look at). Its the pec fly type movement thats important. I havnt worked the chest other than in bending, with a couple months of chest specialization (crushing) and thicker wraps (or tougher hands) i could probly face an IM red and get a nice kink in it. The kicker for me in the DO was the excruciating pain in my palms from the nail (even with leather gloves on IM wraps).

Edited April 6, 2008 by Jaz

[MalachiMcMullen]

DO takes wrist strength. Really what your doing is locking your wrists and forcing the bar to bend with your shoulders and back. That's true of DO and DU. Reverse is about arms strength but again, you keep your wrists locked. It takes a lot of strength to keep your wrists locked during a big bend.

[matthcarl]

Perhaps I should clarify my earlier comments. I think all styles of bending involve a great deal of wrist and grip strength. My wrists are comparatively weak. I just think it's funny to hear one style being called a mere chest crush (not picking on anyone...I'm referring to threads from 4+ years ago I've read) and the other a great wrist test, when both involve a great deal of upper body strength. Wrist curls test wrist strength. Bending is its own skill set.

[naturalstrength]

As stated before, try all styles and find the one that suits YOU best. John Brookfield mentiones bending 60d behind his back. Some people will always find excuses to make their achievements seem better. Experiment and stick with what works for you.

[Jaz]

Perhaps I should clarify my earlier comments. I think all styles of bending involve a great deal of wrist and grip strength. My wrists are comparatively weak. I just think it's funny to hear one style being called a mere chest crush (not picking on anyone...I'm referring to threads from 4+ years ago I've read) and the other a great wrist test, when both involve a great deal of upper body strength. Wrist curls test wrist strength. Bending is its own skill set.

I can see how that would be frustrating to hear. I agree that all styles take wrist involvement. But after a tough DU my wrists will complain for days sometimes. After my DO with the same strengths i do have some wrist soreness (mainly from the transition from the kink to the final crush) but not even close to DU.

[vikingsrule92]

I can only bench about 170 lbs, but can bend a Big Shiny, please explain thius to me? If it is all about pec and lat power then surely someone like Scott Mendelson MUST be able to outbend Gazza. After all I'm sure he can outlift Gazza in every aspect most likely (with repect to powerlifting at least). Surely he can butterfly several hundred pounds and blah blah blah. But bending ISN'T a chest crush!!! Now, this has been discussed and argued over and had threads closed over it WAYYYY too many times, so I think we should just end this.

[timiacobucci]

Don't get touchy Derek. It is fine to have a discussion about this, even if it has been gone over before. If Gazza is being civil I think the rest of us can certainly chill out.

There is a big difference between DU and reverse and DO. What is the biggest thing you have bent DU now Derek? He does have a point.

With less pads you will notice you need more wrist to kink DO. There are allot of muscles involved with all styles of bending, this is no surprise, this is where the energy comes from, the tendons in the wrist just transmit that force. In that sense no one can bend anything with their wrists alone, that is silly. You can crank heslep style and that is your forearms and hand muscles but your wrist are just bone and tendon.

And to this end I will say I don't think the tendon and bone development needed for big DO bends have ever really been addressed. If you have all the muscle power in the world and no hand/wrist/tendon/bone conditioning you ain't gonna bend crap DO. You simply can't transmit the force. Even if a really strong guy could over come the pain they are gonna strain a tendon, and even if the tendons are strong enough, you are gonna break some bones as Gazza has demonstrated so nicely for us. Even though bending DO with big pads takes the least gripstrength/forearm involvement of the bending styles, to do the big bends guys like Gazza and Aaron and Ben and Pat and Mike are doing, I think requires the strongest and toughest/strongest hands and wrists of any grip activity in existence.

Ah i see. Are you serious? Has anyone bent the king yet?

Yes, Gazza has bent the KOASB several times now, lately at 5.5" in IM wraps

Some 3/8inch Stainless Bending, In Ironmind Wraps

video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K5gCkEDRXI

I'm not trying to be condescending but I really don't see how you managed to miss that thread.

Edited April 6, 2008 by timiacobucci

[vikingsrule92]

Tim, Aaron can barely beat me in DU, and you say he has strongest and toughest wrists and hands, so I think you contradicted yourself there buddy. Not calling out Aaron, you or anybody, as you're all my good friends, I'm just making a point. I'm not getting touchy, just trying to get my point through a thick skull (not you don't worry) hehe

Oh and the answer to your question is that I've only ever done about 5-7 DU bends in my entire grip training, I've kinked a G5 and gotten a 1/4" x 5.5" to about 55degrees easily.

[timiacobucci]

I can only bench about 170 lbs, but can bend a Big Shiny, please explain thius to me?

It is just that your chest power is developed in a very specific range of motion. The crush down on a big bend like a shiny takes a ton of chest strength, you just don't have the full range of it to carryover to a full bench yet. I bet if you did full bench isos like you do crush downs for unbraced bends you would have a much much stronger bench. I probably would too . It is muslce doing the work Derek and really strong guys have a ton of bending potential like Kaz. They just need to develope the tendon strength and bone density to apply it without injury, again like Kaz. I think guys like Jeremaih and probably Paul Knight soon too demonstrate this very well.

[timiacobucci]

Tim, Aaron can barely beat me in DU, and you say he has strongest and toughest wrists and hands, so I think you contradicted yourself there buddy.

Well you see this is the distinction I am trying to make, I do think he has the strongest and toughest wrists and hands that are capable of transmiting the force for a huge DU bend IF he had developed the stength in the muscles of the forearm and hand that are required for that style. It also does hit different tendons in a different manner than DO too so there is a nuiance to that as well. But do you see the destinction between muscle strength and tendon force transmission I am talking about?

[bencrush]

Since I've injured both wrists a bit from reverse and DU, I have come to realize that DO-even the method that I use-takes at least a high degree of isometric (static) wrist strength to perform anything substantial. I still don't use a lot of wrist torque to start most bends, Ironmind pad stuff being the exception, but if the static strength isn't there my wrists will just collapse and the steel remains mockingly straight.

[gazza]

Since I've injured both wrists a bit from reverse and DU, I have come to realize that DO-even the method that I use-takes at least a high degree of isometric (static) wrist strength to perform anything substantial. I still don't use a lot of wrist torque to start most bends, Ironmind pad stuff being the exception, but if the static strength isn't there my wrists will just collapse and the steel remains mockingly straight.

Thankyou Ben thats the perfect answer right there and what i was trying to get across just because the wrists dont move dont mean they dont have to be strong they do statically in DO style bending.

To be good at unbraced bending,bend in all style which will hit the wrists from multiple angles and also practise isos in all styles,use as many different steels as possible nails,bolts,crs bars,hrs bars,steel,brass,alu,round,square and hex and bend useing big and little wraps and crushdown pads and barehanded and you have all the bending bases covered.