Fist / bone strength

[Guest el4n]

So far I have been very lucky with not breaking any knuckles or my hands when punching.... "things", a few of my friends have not however (some broken fingers/knuckles and what not).

My question is will grip routines such as the grippers, thick bars, fingertip pushups, knuckle pushups etc. help strengthen the knuckles and bones in your hands to the point where you will be less likly to break your hand when you punch hard objects (wall, skull, etc.). And are there any specific routines or training methods used by any martial artists or boxers that are specifically designed to strenghen the knuckles and bones in the hands when it comes to closed fist punching of solid objects?

[Gripper42004]

Iron Palm training will condition your hands so you can break slabs of concrete. I have done it  so it does work.All u do is hit  an object u know u cant break with all the diff. strikes & then soak your hands in very hot water 4 a few mins..

[Rick Walker]

I had the plesure of getting a "boxer's fracture" in my right middle and ring fingers courtesy of a frat boy's face in State College back in 1998.  Grip training has eliminated all of the stiffness and pain that I had from the fracture.

As far as strengthening the knuckles for impact-I couldn't tell you.  That was back in my wild and crazy "drink whiskey till' I can't stand up" days.  I haven't struck anyone or anything in over 2 years.  I had a close call a few months back with an angry driver but other then that I have been clean.

Anger management does wonders for a young man!

Rick Walker  :hehe

[apdwler]

Better to use a palm strike, at least when standing, when hitting "things". It's also easier to explain to the cops latter. You can always claim you were just slapping the "thing". It often works. A good palm strike will ko most...

You can strengthen skin/bones. But the long term affects are often not so good.

[dyoder16]

First off punch with the knuckles of your index and middle fingers and do it so they stay in a straight line with your Radius and Ulna.  Most people breack a hand because of two things, either they had their wrists bent, or they hit with the ring and pinky fingers.  For the most part those bones are like pencils they will break pretty easily.

You can condition you fingers and hands to an extent, some traditionalists pound rice, BB's, or I've even seen someone use 1" ball bearings.  I think that if you use a pair of the 4 ounce bag gloves for a while you can get a resonable amount of conditioning without paying too high a physical price,especially for most peoples purpose, unless your goal is to chop wood with your bare hands or something.

dyoder16

[MRBeyers]

Follow the advice of dyoder 16.  But a good way to develop your striking surfaces is with "makiwara" training.  It helps to have a partner to hold it for you, but I mounted mine on a column in my garage.  If you can't find a decent one from a martial arts supplier, email me, and I can make one for you, although it may take a week or so.  I have been training in the martial arts for 17 years, and must advise you to go into whatever striking training you choose SLOWLY.

email:mjsparks1@msn.com

[Razorman]

Proper punching technique is key, and I agree that open hand blows are better - with fists you can break boards - with palm strikes, bricks...

But if you want to harden your fists, do these exercises

1) Go into a pushup position (one hand) and support your weight on your fist, while pressing hard with the fist into a concrete floor. Start with a 10sec hold and work up.

2) Get a block of marble from a headstone manufacturer/funeral home. Many a time, they've shattered or messed up on a piece of marble. Ask for a scrap piece, doesn't matter what size and shape, or if scratched or not.

Mount on wall. Punch VERY VERY VERY gently at first, and then work up.

Ask a legit Kung-fu guy where to find Dit-Da-Jow. Use that as a rub into your hands after training, but NEVER on broken skin or cuts (it's toxic)

Or you can do it like Master Pan, and punch the side of iron locomotives for a few years on end. Your hands will be barely recognisable as human, though.

[sammyg]

Knuckle Hardening

Start off by using a Phone Book. Punch it hard 15 times each hand. Then soak your hands and massage them in hot water dirrectly afterwards for 5mins. Do this every second day. You'll develop some very hard knuckles.

When you get to the stage of hitting the phone book as hard as you can for 15reps each hand, swap the Phone Book for a piece of wood. And start again, hitting the wood lightly and working up. When you're hitting a piece of wood as hard as you can for 15reps, you know you'll have a pair of deadly knuckles.

Hope that helped.

[bender]

When bones experience a mild stress, they are stimulated to add more density by adding more minerals (calcium) and tighter bone cells.  The oposite is true, hence osteoperosis, or the lack of bone density.  

  Each time we mash a gripper or torque a bar of steel, the bones, tendons and ligaments all experience minor damage.  Again, our bone-repairing-cells fix all the damage and leave us with stronger, denser, harder, more injury free hands.  Just think if some 17-year-old-nintendo-palying-kid had the strength to mash a #3?  If he did, the bones in his hand would be pulverized.

 

  Also, another interesting note for any science/medical guy who wishes to comment:   When the human body develops from embyo to human, the cells are designated to what part of the body they will form.  They then, grow, devide, and form the body part, and "turn off".  It's why we don't grow back limbs when we lose them to chain saws or .50 caliber rounds.

  My thought is that the cells that last formed our bodies, ie the finger and toe tips, and even the hand are not "turned off" completely.  This is proven by fingers of children growing partialy back after an accident.  My point is, is this why our hands can grow to be so horribly strong and have such a quick recovery time?  

   My chest work outs leave me sore for 4 days, and it can only be attempted weekly, but I can bend 5/16 HRS every other day.  #1:  The recovery time for such intense stress on the hand is incredible.  #2:  The stress put on the hand is incredible.  Mind numbing, if you do the math.  Due to recent posts on deadlifting cars and the resultant math, I won't even ask about the math.

  To take a wild tangent back on track, yea, the bone density of the hand sky rockets.  Drunken college guys can fracture a hand on a glancing blow, but some guys can rep a #3 and then punch concrete.  The increase in bone strength is truly amazing.

[Guest Canthar]

Proper developed Palm strikes. Those seen in traditional Kung Fu, Ba Gua etc and taught through Iron Palm are not only safer as far as striking but, when done properly they can do much more damage.....

[dyoder16]

I have to dispute that an open palm strike is more effective than a closed fist.  If it was why don't pro bare knuckle fighters use them instead of a closed fist?

1. An open hand spreads out the strike over a larger area than a shot with the fist.  You want maximun force over a minimum area.

2.  An open hand increases the chance of wrist injury, it doesn't matter how strong they are.  

3.  An open hand limits the type of strikes that can be thrown.  You're not going to throw an effective uppercut or hook.  Uppercuts are nearly impossible and hooks turn into open hand slaps.  

4.  Open hands are far less effective in tearing flesh.  Part of the reason a punch turns over as it is delivered is to tear flesh and cause cuts.

5.  Open hands take away 4 - 6 inches of your reach.  

Open hands are effective in certain situations but they are close quarters situations.  I've used them when on the ground striking hardened parts, like the side and back of the head and they work well.  Also when in a clinch or your being jammed and need room, but when your open facing keep those mitts closed.  They may be sore when your done, but I'd rather have sore hands and a full set of teeth.  

Just my $.02.

dyoder16

[Drassk]

I sort of half agree.  For those who are trained to fight that way open hands are nearly universally more effective but you need to be in a very specific fighting style.  For example, in Hung Gar you are trained to fight open handed and there are a variety of grabs and such that can be pulled off after a strike as well as rakes and tears and all sorts of things you can't switch into quickly with a closed fist.  They also have excellent reach because they can 'stab' with straight fingers without harming their hands.  On the other hand, I'd say that using the fists is much easier and more natural for those who aren't really trained.

[Guest Canthar]

Open handed is an issue of technique and know how. Closed-fist is easier to do. I'm not going to go too far but, simply how many people can hold a coconut in their offhand and break it open with a closed fist. Took about 8 months of training open handed to do this. I have never seen anyone do this closed fist. With proper training the injury potential to the wrist is basically non excistant. AS far as tearing flesh, look at the claw forms in Hung Gar. One can tear flesh much more effieciently with that then with a closed fist.

It's an opinion of style and how long one wants to train. If a person spends the time training in either fashion thier hands will be deadly either way. Take it as preference. I hold either in respect. Though I am NOT a fan of western boxing at all.

[dyoder16]

I don't want to get down on anybody for their particular style, but has anybody ever actually witnessed anybody tear away flesh in a live situation.  It's one of those things I throw into the myths basket with driving a mans nose into his brain and killing him.  Where are all these deadly guys when NHB comes calling?

dyoder16

[Drassk]

My old kung fu teacher had hands like iron (he could punch his fingersr staight on through shipping crates, could dent hardwood boards with his knuckles, he's snapped 2" wooden dowels with his forearms (all verified non-bs), the whole deal) and an intimate knowledge of how your muscles etc are attached.  I've had times where as an example he's put grabs on me where there was next to no perceived pressure but the second I tried to pull away or move it felt like the muscle he was holding was going to tear off of my body.  As a general rule flesh tearing only really works in areas where you can 'hook' something like at the side of the pec or on the face, etc.

[Guest reid73]

Isnt one of the biggest helps to any kind of strike a strong wrist?It seems for the avereage brawler a few sets of heavy wrist curls would be inorder .

James

[Drassk]

Something I've found semi-common in martial artists is having weak wrists, actually.  Most of them condition their hands to be tough so that when they strike something their hands can take the force but I see a lot of wrist injuries from people who aren't used to a heavy bag and never knew their punching technique was just a bit off.

[Razorman]

RE: open hand vs closed hand strikes

Ever notice how boards are shattered with punches, but with BRICKS, it's open hands?

Your open palm strike lines up the striking area (the meat of the hand) ***directly*** with the wrist and elbow, so the entire assembly can strike as a co-ordinated unit.

With a PUNCH, you'll notice most people lose some of the energy in that chain through the wrist.

Believe me, you can uppercut with an open hand.

The reason why you don't see open hand uppercuts in full-combat K-12 Octagon whatever competitions is that they can KILL people.

[dyoder16]

The reason why you don't see open hand uppercuts in full-combat K-12 Octagon whatever competitions is that they can KILL people.

This is the same nonsense that i've been hearing for years from these traditionalists who don't want to admit that a lot of their stuff is useless.

[Drassk]

As for the bricks question :  There have been Tae Kwon Do masters who were VERY proficient in breaking stone with bone strikes but the reason they could never get to the level of the palm breakers isn't because of the technique.  The difference between palm strikes and bone strikes that is most prized is the fact that soft tissue (the muscle and skin of your palm) can be hardened and toughened much further beyond it's normal strength than bone can.  There are those (some even Chinese) who have hardened their knuckles to extraordinary degrees but most people who are breaking the hard stuff are using strikes that hit with 'soft' tissue because it's less likely to break.

As for the strengths of open vs closed hand strikes, I have heard that open strikes lend themselves more naturally to 'delayed action' type strikes where the damage occurs past the point of impact.  This can be seen in breaking competitions where a certain brick in a stack is broken or only bricks past a certain point.  Either way, this can lead to a greater chance of causing internal injury which is not the kind of thing we want in a prize-fighting situation.  Bruises are cool and all but internal bleeding is not.

[Guest Canthar]

Glad somone pointed out the brick vs. wood. Openhanded strikes tend to be regarded as the king of breaking. The difference lies not in the strike but, in the material. Wood flexes, open handed strikes create vibration within the object that is struck. If the object can flex with the vibrations then it will not break. Hence when doing multiple bricks with open handed there are usually no spacers so the vibrations can carry all the way through. Sorry for my delay in replies recently. I'm in the proccess of finding a second job.