Another Stupid Question

[MalachiMcMullen]

Alright, ever now and then, when I decide to bend unbraced and I start to get better and make gains, I get pains in my shoulders. It's to the inside of the front deltoid, at the end of the pec. I can be good for weeks with no pain but as soon as I start doing heavy isos or raise my unbraced volume I get a constant pain. It effects my benching, because it hurts, but does not hurt when I bend. I'm quite sure it's unbraced bending that has caused this because I don't bench but once a week and even then only just. It takes weeks to heal and this has happened at least 3 times before. After evertime I have taken a break from bending. Could it be that the tendons in my shoulders are trying to become accustomed to the tension of the crushdown and taking a break when the pain comes back only aids in making me start over again? Anyone else ever experienced this?

[acorn]

I feel that almost every day in my right pec/deltiod area. I ice the crap out of it and deep self massage it and that seems to help some when its real bad.

- Aaron

[MalachiMcMullen]

I feel that almost every day in my right pec/deltiod area. I ice the crap out of it and deep self massage it and that seems to help some when its real bad.

- Aaron

Well... good to know it'll go away as I get better at bending.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Seriously though, it switches arms sometimes. I take a few weeks off, start bending again and it switches from R to L. Other than dealing with it(and since I'm a complainer) does anyone have a good way to either get-rid of or avoid this? If not I guess I'll just have one more pain to deal with everyday

[climber511]

It's your body saying - "hey dummy, if you don't give me a break, I'm going to give you one!" Listen up now or listen up later!

[maximus1]

It's your body saying - "hey dummy, if you don't give me a break, I'm going to give you one!" Listen up now or listen up later!

quote of the week right there!

[nockowt1]

Be careful with your shoulders. I went from being able to do weighted chinups with 90lbs and weighted dips with 135lbs to not being able to raise my arm above my head (or get into position to DO bend) because I tried to ignore a shoulder problem. Consider yourself fortunate that at your age you'll probably recover from just about anything, but as you get a little older you may not recover as fast (if at all).

[crobb1320]

Zach,I have been fighting the same issue with my left shoulder.Take some time to let it heal,Then do some other stuff like some lighter benching or something to make it stronger,it is working for me.I feel your pain Bro,sometimes it feels fine and then a little while after a bend it will get sore,It really sucks but you can make it better.Hey it could be worse,let it heal man.

[pjwilsondc]

Check out Secrets of the Shoulder by Bretty Jones and Gray Cook. Helps you identify and correct muscle imbalances around the shoulder girdle.

[climber511]

Check out Secrets of the Shoulder by Bretty Jones and Gray Cook. Helps you identify and correct muscle imbalances around the shoulder girdle.

How about a review of Secrets of the Shoulder - It looked interesting but expensive. Worth the money?

[MalachiMcMullen]

Thanks for the responses guys. I DO lay off the unbraced bending while it hurts and I do bench a little lighter than normal(mind you not b/c I want to). I also do some shoulder stretches every other day or so. The only thing I CAN'T do is a one arm, overhead DB press with my L arm right now because it's excrutiating. Well, I'm going to try something different this time. All the times this has come about in the past I have taken a break from bending but for this one, I will continue bending but nothing anywhere near limit. Perhaps higher volume with some 60d's will be good for the ole shoulder, who knows? Perhaps the tendons haven't had a chance to properly acclimate themselves to the tension of bending and some low resistance volume might just do them good.

[climber511]

Thanks for the responses guys. I DO lay off the unbraced bending while it hurts and I do bench a little lighter than normal(mind you not b/c I want to). I also do some shoulder stretches every other day or so. The only thing I CAN'T do is a one arm, overhead DB press with my L arm right now because it's excrutiating. Well, I'm going to try something different this time. All the times this has come about in the past I have taken a break from bending but for this one, I will continue bending but nothing anywhere near limit. Perhaps higher volume with some 60d's will be good for the ole shoulder, who knows? Perhaps the tendons haven't had a chance to properly acclimate themselves to the tension of bending and some low resistance volume might just do them good.

Oh to be 18 again and truly believe -"it won't happen to me" Good Luck to you my friend!

[MalachiMcMullen]

Oh to be 18 again and truly believe -"it won't happen to me" Good Luck to you my friend!

it's not so much the "it won't happen to me" mentality as it is just trying something new. I had a pain in my back from Deadlifting a few years ago, I laid off lifting for 3 months to no avail, how did I get rid of it? Started deadlifting again. I had a bad pain in my wrists from grippers when I started grip, laid off grip for 3 1/2 weeks and the pain got worse, how did I get rid of it? Started doing grippers again. I'm sure age has something to do with it but even you can't deny that the body benefits from a low resistance workout and stretching after an injury

[timiacobucci]

Now, this may not be the same problem and that I have and nockowt1 probably as well, but I think it is the dreaded rotator cuff shoulder imbalance, leading to tendon impingement. It sounds like you are describing the same tendon that bothers me at times and this is a very common thing in big benchers. Are your shoulders rolled forward too far and your palms at rest face more behind you than inside?

I knew allot of guys with these problems from lifting when I was playing football, my bench was allways crap so I never thought it would happen to me but the heavy bending jacked up my chest strength and my bench is way stronger now than it ever was and I NEVER bench, I don't even have one to use.

The pain is impingement and when it gets bad enough like nockowt1 it leads to tendonitis, this is described as an overuse injury, I think allot of volume is only going to make it worse. The only reason I think we are not affected as bad as heavy benchers is the isos we do are hard and (relatively) short, low volume. Bending hits the tendon hard but not allot and it has time to heal, low intensity and high volume is I think probably the worst thing you can do.

I spent allot of time reading about this and the geometry and interplay of the shoulder complex is very complicated and I really don't have as good an understanding of it as I would like but there are allot of different exercises to try and restore muscle balance to the shoulder I found in allot of different places but then I found a diesel crew video which shows them all.

It is seriously the best resourse I have found, it doesn't explain anything but it does show you exactly what you need to do to fix it.

I really recommend getting one of those silly stretchy bands, they are awesome for stretching and I am glad I got one.

Also I have been talking to Adam Glass about this and he seems to know allot about it and he highly recommends 10 minute Turkish getups, not max effort but quality controlled motion for 10 minutes alternating arms.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but this is a serious thing and it takes hard work to fix, but it is sure better to try and do it now before it gets worse, as I'm sure nockowt1 will tell you.

Also on the bright side your body inhibits the strengthening of the stronger muscle group in the case of an imbalance to protect the weaker from an injury, ever heard of a rotator cuff injury in sports? So once the balance is restored and you can hit the isos and bench hard again it will be like someone took the brakes off and your progress should accelerate greatly.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Now, this may not be the same problem...

That is really interesting. Hmmm, I'll have to think about that one actually. I bench once a week at my most frequent and the rest of the time I focus on my core, shoulders and back. If anything is too strong it's my upper back. I don't have rounded shoulders and my palms are facing my body, not the wall. Still though, you may be onto something. I do a lot of overhead kettlebell work with my 24kg, not so much pressing but movements like squats, walking, holds, going up steps, spinning in a circle all while holding the KB overhead. I love doing wide grip chins, hand stand pushups and the like so I can't imagine it being a muscular imbalance but I really don't know. I'll figure out a little system to use without UBed bending then.

[timiacobucci]

The only thing I CAN'T do is a one arm, overhead DB press with my L arm right now because it's excrutiating

I just saw this part, that is a bad thing man, I have got clicking and irritation but excruciating pain is something serious, I agree with you on the deadlifting thing, the same happen to me too, but I really believe this is a different animal. Why do you think so many big powerlifters need surgery for this eventually? Is it because powerlifters have the mentality of taking time off and resting too much and not working on strengthening their bench to make it stronger?

I actually do think your mentality is good it just needs to be applied intelligently. Work to strengthen the thing that actually needs it. This ain't your chest and forward rotating shoulder muscles.

The other thing I have been wondering is how shoe bending affects this. I had come to the temporary conclusion that the kink motion, pulling from the opposite shoulder, really worked the rear delt and was beneficial in correcting the imbalance. But while this problem has been studied a ton in sports I don't think anyone knows much about it's relation to steel bending and horse shoe bending in particular.

You pretty much always pull from your left arm right Zach? And the impingement in this shoulder is significantly worse? I don't like the sound of that.

[MalachiMcMullen]

The only thing I CAN'T do is a one arm, overhead DB press with my L arm right now because it's excrutiating

I just saw this part, that is a bad thing man, I have got clicking and irritation but excruciating pain is something serious, I agree with you on the deadlifting thing, the same happen to me too, but I really believe this is a different animal. Why do you think so many big powerlifters need surgery for this eventually? Is it because powerlifters have the mentality of taking time off and resting too much and not working on strengthening their bench to make it stronger?

I actually do think your mentality is good it just needs to be applied intelligently. Work to strengthen the thing that actually needs it. This ain't your chest and forward rotating shoulder muscles.

The other thing I have been wondering is how shoe bending affects this. I had come to the temporary conclusion that the kink motion, pulling from the opposite shoulder, really worked the rear delt and was beneficial in correcting the imbalance. But while this problem has been studied a ton in sports I don't think anyone knows much about it's relation to steel bending and horse shoe bending in particular.

You pretty much always pull from your left arm right Zach? And the impingement in this shoulder is significantly worse? I don't like the sound of that.

If this makes any sense at all, I cannot perform an overhead DB press from the resting position, HOWEVER, I CAN peform an overhead KB press from the resting position.

I don't think shoe bending has much to do with this. When I first had this pain, and again it comes and goes with my unbraced bending, I had never bent a shoe before and it was in my R shoulder. The next 2 times it came back I had been bending shoes but less than 10 UL's total and both times it was in my R shoulder. This is the first time it's come in the L shoulder and this is also the first time doing an overhead press hurts. So this could be something different and I can't totally rule out pulling like I do during shoe bending.

[timiacobucci]

I'll figure out a little system to use without UBed bending then.

I don't have any excruciating pain but I still do unbraced stuff. I really don't think it is that bad with low volume. Just stay away from stuff that hurts and high volume I would say. I actually think braced bending and my favorite the braced hip crush are the worst. I also think that movement is what strengthened my chest the most too though, it's a catch 22.

The muscle balance is real weird in the shoulder, I am allot like you though, big deadlift strong back, I am sure I got it though, I tried to deny it for a while but the more I read and the more attention I payed to it the more obvious it was.

Adam doens't think this exercise is worth crap but I think it is good for diagnosis at least. See how comfortable an overhead barbell shrug is. If it is awkward and weak as hell there is a good chance your scapula muscle balance is waay off, mine was . I can overhead press and push press a good deal now but as soon as I try and lower my shoulders I have to drop the weight by at least half.

Even if your shoulder muslces are ok if your scapula is out of wack then it messes up your shoulder function too.

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1426252 there is a video of an overhead shrug in this article too if you never heard of it.

This is where the complexity kicks in. Every time I think I start to really understand that article I realize I am missing something.

[timiacobucci]

So this could be something different and I can't totally rule out pulling like I do during shoe bending.

Well I am in the same boat so I guess we will have to figure it out together here. I still want to believe it is helping . Could just be a conincidence with the left shoulder. It is just good to keep in mind I think.

I don't have an KB's, wish I did, but I can see how the hand position would load the shoulder differently with a DB.

[nockowt1]

I agree with everything that timiacobucci posted. I didn't realize how bad my shoulder was until I got some xrays and some MRIs. It was then I found out that I had bursitis and tendonitis of my rotator cuff. I also found out that I have 2 fused vertebrae in my neck and type III acromion (http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/21/18/04.html) which creates shoulder impingement. After over 6 months of physical therapy my shoulder actually got worse. As I stated before, be careful with your shoulders.