How Much Longer Before We Grow This Sport Of Grip?

[Too Tall]

I know this has been talked about and tried many times before and WE still cannot find a way to get a governing body for this sport. We tried the WHSA...and I am sure that we have tried others. David and Steve put together the BHSA and I hope that it contiues to grow...BUT WE need a WORLD WIDE organization.

We have lost A LOT of good grip guys because of this and nobody likes all this bickering back and forth. If we are ALL on the same page...it cannot be that hard. I love this sport and I want it to grow like many others on this board want it to. We need to get some proven promoters out there and put a series of qualifiers together and have a WORLD competition that can change sites every year. I know that one of the BIG things is $$$ and travel to these comps...but if we can get the sport more well known...it will be easier to get sponsors. TIME is wasting...and I do not want this to continue to be just a sport that resorts to be called UNDERGROUND and just something you do in your garage. There are ALOT of VERY talented guys on this board that can do some AMAZING things and I know that people would pay to see it if it got more visible to the public. We have to start with something to see if we have ANYTHING here. Let's put together some rules and standards and get the ball rolling. You do not know unless you try....RIGHT?

I am crying out for help here and I know that a lot of guys here feel the same way. If we just want to keep it like it is...then that's cool and I will go back to hunting and fishing and stop wasting ALL my time on a dream that I know could come true if we just DO IT. I am willing to help...lets get something going.

I only want guys that want to help to chime in...no negative here on this thread...I think we can do it...let's put our heads together.

Chad Woodall

[Bob Lipinski]

All right Chad, I am ready. Have you seen my US Handstrength site in my sig? I've had it up for awhile, getting ready for when we move forward.

Here is what needs to be done:

1. Put someone in charge. Someone to set an agenda and move things forward.

2. Have a national championship. If it is the GGC, that is fine, but we need it flat out stated that it is a National Championship.

3. Come up with a process for change. Either have it voted on by contest promoters or anyone who has competed/promoted.

And here is what could be done:

1. Charge membership fees. Probably easiest to have promoters collect.

2. Use the fees to send winners of big local comps to Nationals. This would not only help the athletes, but also help the sport by improving participation in the nationals.

[Bob Lipinski]

Here is my sample list of rules. I also have event rules.

General Competition Guidelines

A competition recognized by US Handstrength should follow these general guidelines:

1. More than three events in the contest.

2. Over half of the events must be from the generalized list of grip lifts, and all events must have a strong emphasis on hand strength. The contest must test at least three of the following categories of handstrength- Wrist strength, Crushing, Supporting, and Pinching. Competitions which do not meet above criteria may be approved through a vote by current promoters.

3. Competent and objective judging must be present.

4. No hook grip allowed.

5. Standard gym chalk allowed- No rosin, tacky, spray grip, etc.

6. No straps or wrist wraps allowed.

7. No more than 4 attempts allowed per event.

8. Each attempt can consist of a no longer than one minute period where the lifters may make as many attempts to lift the weight as they choose. This does not apply to timed events.

9. The competition should be announced at least 1 month in advance and open to the public.

Recognized Grip Feats

Note- The following feats are the most generally recognized and popularly accepted. As other feats become popular or regularly used, the event list will be accordingly updated.

1. Crushing

-Hand Grippers- No set, Credit card set, or Parallel Set.

2. Supporting

-Olympic bar deadlift/hold (one or two handed)

-One Hand Dumbell Deadlift, Clean, or Snatch

-Revolving Handle lifts

-Double Overhand Deadlift

-Vertical Bar lifts (1" diameter is the usual standard)

-Ring lifts

-Hercules Hold

-Farmers Walk

4. Leverage lifts

-Brick Lifts

-Short Steel Bending (Bars under 7" of length)- Regular, Double Underhand, European style

-Sledgehammer Leverage

8. Pinch Lifts

-Plate pinching, 1 and two handed

-Hub Lifts

-Block lifts (various manufactured implements)

-Block weight lifts

[mobsterone]

All right Chad, I am ready. Have you seen my US Handstrength site in my sig? I've had it up for awhile, getting ready for when we move forward.

Here is what needs to be done:

1. Put someone in charge. Someone to set an agenda and move things forward.

2. Have a national championship. If it is the GGC, that is fine, but we need it flat out stated that it is a National Championship.

3. Come up with a process for change. Either have it voted on by contest promoters or anyone who has competed/promoted.

And here is what could be done:

1. Charge membership fees. Probably easiest to have promoters collect.

2. Use the fees to send winners of big local comps to Nationals. This would not only help the athletes, but also help the sport by improving participation in the nationals.

Part 1

1. Easy. Just vote and it's done.

2. Ditto but establish how you get to compete in it - ie: are other events qualifiers?

3. Set the rules first. You've done all the hard work - just get people to agree those are the rules of the US hand strength association.

Part 2

1. Start by asking - $20.00 and a paypal account to pay it into. Then as you say.

2. Maybe not completely cover costs and ask members

[The Mac]

Sounds good - just do it.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Hmmm, if there's going to be a vote then there should be a nominations thread hint hint...

[lone Wolf]

Here is my sample list of rules. I also have event rules.

General Competition Guidelines

A competition recognized by US Handstrength should follow these general guidelines:

1. More than three events in the contest.

2. Over half of the events must be from the generalized list of grip lifts, and all events must have a strong emphasis on hand strength. The contest must test at least three of the following categories of handstrength- Wrist strength, Crushing, Supporting, and Pinching. Competitions which do not meet above criteria may be approved through a vote by current promoters.

3. Competent and objective judging must be present.

4. No hook grip allowed.

5. Standard gym chalk allowed- No rosin, tacky, spray grip, etc.

6. No straps or wrist wraps allowed.

7. No more than 4 attempts allowed per event.

8. Each attempt can consist of a no longer than one minute period where the lifters may make as many attempts to lift the weight as they choose. This does not apply to timed events.

9. The competition should be announced at least 1 month in advance and open to the public.

Recognized Grip Feats

Note- The following feats are the most generally recognized and popularly accepted. As other feats become popular or regularly used, the event list will be accordingly updated.

1. Crushing

-Hand Grippers- No set, Credit card set, or Parallel Set.

2. Supporting

-Olympic bar deadlift/hold (one or two handed)

-One Hand Dumbell Deadlift, Clean, or Snatch

-Revolving Handle lifts

-Double Overhand Deadlift

-Vertical Bar lifts (1" diameter is the usual standard)

-Ring lifts

-Hercules Hold

-Farmers Walk

4. Leverage lifts

-Brick Lifts

-Short Steel Bending (Bars under 7" of length)- Regular, Double Underhand, European style

-Sledgehammer Leverage

8. Pinch Lifts

-Plate pinching, 1 and two handed

-Hub Lifts

-Block lifts (various manufactured implements)

-Block weight lifts

This a very good start Bob for the general guidlines. But on the event performances

we need to go through each grip feat and define the rules for each. We need to make sure

there's only one interpretation for each feat and set them in stone cross are T's and dot are I's.

Some of the contest promoters are now getting into calibrated plates we need to keep going

more in that direction.

Robert Alva

[Too Tall]

If I were a seasoned promoter...then I would get the ball rolling NOW. We need the Diesel Crew, Bob, Chris Rice, John Beaty, and a few others to just do it here in the US. I know that if you guys put something together and say this is how it is going to be...then I will follow and agree and I know others will too. I say the organizers talk it out and present it to the competitors of how it is going to be ran for 2008. I do not think that we should do a big vote...because it will confuse things and to much disagreement will start again. Just lay it out...and the ones that want to follow will follow and the ones that want to stay in the garage and not step up to the plate and compete will stay in the garage and that is okay...but those people need not to claim anymore they can do this or that if they do not compete...because if I tell all of you that I can close a #4 in training and 2hp 250 in training...that is not saying a heck of a lot if I cannot step to the plate at the competition and do those lifts that I claim. There are too many great lifters here that claim so much but never compete...those of you need to compete or just continue to keep your PR's to yourself...because with all your help too...the sport will grow even more...because we will have more great competitors going at it.

Like my signature says

[Booyah!!!]

My Penny's worth. We on the GripBoard are the governing body at the moment. We have some of the most talented natural leaders any one could actually ask for. They ask for input and consider avenues to at least attempt to make most of us happy. This is the GripBoard Moderator Team. If we NEED a governing body, it should be the guys that already do a Kick Ass job. We just change the Moderator Name to Governing Body. If the objective is to make the sport more popular, I agree w/ John Beatty. We need to get out and show our workouts and put on shows etc., Make it more popular. It seems to me that having 1 or 2 guys determining what we will or will not do will not make it more popular. I started doing this stuff because I saw Pat Povilatis bend a 5.5" Bastard and wondered what it took and it was very easy to start. I believe if things get too complicated too fast it will be detrimental to a relatively new sport. AnyWay

[Hubgeezer]

I know that if you guys put something together and say this is how it is going to be...then I will follow and agree and I know others will too. I say the organizers talk it out and present it to the competitors of how it is going to be ran for 2008. I do not think that we should do a big vote...because it will confuse things and to much disagreement will start again. Just lay it out...and the ones that want to follow will follow and the ones that want to stay in the garage and not step up to the plate and compete will stay in the garage and that is okay...

I suspect that sums it up for most of us. After years of pointing out flaws of ideas that are not the best, gradually the thing has boiled down to the level where there are no longer any "nutty" ideas out there. Those have been worked through, and whatever would materialize now would be generally accepted by most. We all have our little pet peeves, but it is better to shut our mouths for the greater good.

I think I said 6 months ago, after competing at the Brits, something to the effect, "if someone told me the One Hand Lift and Table Top Wrist Curl were now permanent events, I would accept that". I had done neither prior to the competition, but they seem like decent events. Everyone has to compromise some. However, so much has been hashed out informally, by trial, by error, and by observation of others more experienced in these matters, it is time to stop talking and go forward.

[lone Wolf]

My Penny's worth. We on the GripBoard are the governing body at the moment. We have some of the most talented natural leaders any one could actually ask for. They ask for input and consider avenues to at least attempt to make most of us happy. This is the GripBoard Moderator Team. If we NEED a governing body, it should be the guys that already do a Kick Ass job. We just change the Moderator Name to Governing Body. If the objective is to make the sport more popular, I agree w/ John Beatty. We need to get out and show our workouts and put on shows etc., Make it more popular. It seems to me that having 1 or 2 guys determining what we will or will not do will not make it more popular. I started doing this stuff because I saw Pat Povilatis bend a 5.5" Bastard and wondered what it took and it was very easy to start. I believe if things get too complicated too fast it will be detrimental to a relatively new sport. AnyWay

Would the Gripboard Moderator Team be willing to take on such a task. Bob's got things in motion already how long

would it take for the Gripboard Team to get up to speed? Plus for the Contest Governing Body it's members not 1 or 2 guys

should be regional so as to be able to visit contests as they are occurring .

Robert Alva

[Bob Lipinski]

Here is even more of a start Robert. I haven't worked on these in a while because it went nowhere.

Rules of Performance:

Plate and block pinching, 1 or 2 hands:

1. The lift will start with apparatus in front of the lifter and on the ground.

2. The lifter must grab the top of the plates using a pinch grip, and lift until the crossbar makes contact with a predetermined height marker.

3. For one handed events, the lifting hand should not be braced against a leg in order to aid the lift. The non lifting hand can be braced against the body, but may not touch the lifting arm.

4. For two handed lifts, the hands must both be facing the same direction, and may be no farther than 4 inches apart.

5. The implement must be lowered under control after the lift is completed.

6. To count as a US record, the crossbar inserted into an olympic 45 pound plate (or recognized adjustable pinch setup) must touch a marker 16.5" off the ground.

Double Overhand Thick Bar Deadlift

1. The lifter will approach the bar with the bar in front of him.

2. The lifter will stand to a fully erect position with knees locked. The judge will give the lifter a "down" signal when the lifter acheives the finished position.

3. The bar may not be rested on the thighs in order to regrip or support the weight.

4.The implement must be lowered under control after the lift is completed.

Thick Handle Dumbell Deadlift:

1. The lifter will approach the bar with the bar in front or on either side.

2. The lifter will stand to a fully erect position with knees locked. The judge will give the lifter a "down" signal when the lifter acheives the finished position.

3. For one handed events, the lifting hand should not be braced against a leg in order to aid the lift. The non lifting hand can be braced against the body, but may not touch the lifting arm.

4. Plates no bigger than standard Olympic 25 pound plates should be used. Larger plates allow the forearm to be braced against the side of the plates, making the lift much easier.

5. The implement must be lowered under control after the lift is completed.

Vertical Bar

1. A 25-26mm in diameter, 24-30 inch long, unknurled steel bar will be used. The lift will start with apparatus in front of the lifter and on the ground.

2. The lifter will grab the bar and lift so that the bottom of the plates (on the lowest end if there is tilt) will be at least 2 inches above the ground. The judge will call the lift after it is completed.

3. No more than 2" of bar can be showing above where the lifter grabs the bar.

4. The lifting arm may contact the inner thigh during the lift, but may not be braced against a leg in order to aid the lift.The non lifting hand can be braced against the body, but may not touch the lifting arm.

5. The implement must be lowered under control after the lift is completed.

For grip lifting events not specified:

1. The lifter will approach the bar with the bar in front of him. For one handed lifts, the bar may be on the side of the lifter.

2. The lifter will stand to a fully erect position with knees locked, or to another predetermined height. The judge will give the lifter a "down" signal when the lifter acheives the finished position.

3. For one handed events, the lifting hand should not be braced against a leg in order to aid the lift. The non lifting hand can be braced against the body, but may not touch the lifting arm.

4. The implement must be lowered under control after the lift is completed.

Short Steel Bending

Acceptable Rule Sets:

FBBC Rules

Ironmind Rules

European Rules

General Rules

1. Before the bend, the competitor may wrap the nail in a soft material such as leather, cordura, cotton, polyester, etc. No hard material such as metal or wood may be in the wrap.

2. The competitor has 1.5 minutes to bend the bar until the inside edge of the ends are 2 inches or less apart. For nails and bolts, the head is not counted in the measurement. For uneven bends, the distance from the shorter "leg" straight across to the other side shall be measured. The competitor may adjust the wraps in this time period.

3. No contact of the arms below the waist is allowed.

4. The judge will inspect the wraps used after the close.

Grippers

General Gripper Rules

1. For no set closes, the gripper must be picked up and closed with no involvement from the non-closing hand. For set closes, the non-closing hand can aid in "setting" the gripper until the handles are parallel- Any contact further than this and the attempt will be declared "no good". For credit card closes, the judge will insert a credit card between the handles, and give a command to "start" when the gripper is at the correct position. The non-closing hand may contact the gripper until the "start" command is given.

2. The gripper must be closed so that the bottom of the handles are clearly touching.

3. The gripper may not be closed in an "inverted" fashion.

4. The forearm of the closing hand may not contact any other object or part of the body during the close.

Leverage to head

1. The lifter will grab an implement with at least a 32" handle length, not counting the weight, with the little finger at bottom of the handle.

2. The lifter will start the lift with the lifting arm parallel to the ground, and the implement perpendicular to the ground.

3. The lifter will lower the implement until the handle is at least at a 45 degree angle to the ground, as viewed from the side. At this point, the judge will say "lift", and the hammer will be raised to a position perpendicular to the floor.

4. The non-lifting arm may not contact the lifting arm or implement. The implement may contact the side of the head, if such contact does not make the lift easier.

5. The lifter may not move his arm from the parallel position. The arm may be strapped down to a parallel surface; this is encouraged.

[RKlein]

Great Post Chad. I feel the same way you do

[MalachiMcMullen]

My Penny's worth. We on the GripBoard are the governing body at the moment. We have some of the most talented natural leaders any one could actually ask for. They ask for input and consider avenues to at least attempt to make most of us happy. This is the GripBoard Moderator Team. If we NEED a governing body, it should be the guys that already do a Kick Ass job. We just change the Moderator Name to Governing Body. If the objective is to make the sport more popular, I agree w/ John Beatty. We need to get out and show our workouts and put on shows etc., Make it more popular. It seems to me that having 1 or 2 guys determining what we will or will not do will not make it more popular. I started doing this stuff because I saw Pat Povilatis bend a 5.5" Bastard and wondered what it took and it was very easy to start. I believe if things get too complicated too fast it will be detrimental to a relatively new sport. AnyWay

I agree Mike!!! But if I may combine Mike's idea with Robert's, why not have experienced gripsters volunteer in each region and then be recognized as part of the "Governing Body" like Mike suggested? Would it be easier to have competitors accept someone on the Gripboard for each region, as in only people from whatever recognized region have a say on who their "guy" will be?

Bob, you really have helped to get the ball rolling on the rules!!!

Bob, in General Rules #4 you have it as the judge must inspect the wraps after the bend, well why not have it be where the bender(s) either gives the bent steel to the judge afterwards for him to unwrap or have it so the bender(s) must wrap their attempts in clear view?

[mobsterone]

Wraps would be inspected before. No one would want to bend some thick lump of steel only to get it not passed because of 'illegal' wraps.

[John Beatty]

oops

Edited December 15, 2007 by John Beatty

[Bob Lipinski]

Everyone should know the wraps by now. After lets you make sure that the wraps you present are the ones you bent with. It is far fetched, but switches could be made. This should be the official word for the bend.

If you are personally unsure of the wrap, you could ask a judge at any time.

Mike-

Do you mean the gripboard moderator team should be making the rules? I disagree with this. The rules should be made by those that are participating. Otherwise you get people chiming in that may never compete or hold a competition, and have little experience in what works and little desire to make it work.

Jedd, Smitty, Eric, Chris Rice and I could make this work. We are the promoters that are most active on this board. I'd volunteer Beatty too if he wasn't already busy enough, but I know for a fact his word would count alot with all of us.

[RKlein]

"Jedd, Smitty, Eric, Chris Rice and I could make this work. We are the promoters that are most active on this board. I'd volunteer Beatty too if he wasn't already busy enough, but I know for a fact his word would count alot with all of us."

Sounds like a good team, lets go forward with it.

[The Mac]

As someone who looks at the small print all day at work, some of those rules are a little different than the BHSA.

[lone Wolf]

This a very good start Bob for the general guidlines. But on the event performances

we need to go through each grip feat and define the rules for each. We need to make sure

there's only one interpretation for each feat and set them in stone cross are T's and dot are I's.

Some of the contest promoters are now getting into calibrated plates we need to keep going

more in that direction.

Robert Alva

I haven't worked on these in a while because it went nowhere.

As someone who looks at the small print all day at work, some of those rules are a little different than the BHSA.

Bob made there rules a while back as he said now were trying to get in position to move forward

with them nothing really set in stone yet but we have this as a starting point. I said this in one of

the other threads on this topic we need to have a good dialogue with the BHSA . Because one of the

parts of this is to have inter organization contests .

Robert Alva

[Too Tall]

"Jedd, Smitty, Eric, Chris Rice and I could make this work. We are the promoters that are most active on this board. I'd volunteer Beatty too if he wasn't already busy enough, but I know for a fact his word would count alot with all of us."

Sounds like a good team, lets go forward with it.

Sounds like a winner to me

[EricMilfeld]

I offer 100% of my support for this effort. I've been giving this a lot of thought, for years, actually. I don't have a lot of time at the moment to elaborate, but I look forward to getting together with the rest of you for a roundtable discussion.

Most of my input would be suggestions for the rules of performance and equipment standards.

[Bob Lipinski]

Well, I know Chris is active here, Jedd and Smitty have been busy lately. Eric, if you want to look over my rules of performance and change things, go for it.

The only points of genuine debate that I can think of right now are-

1. Do we want all American Records calibrated and on standard equipment?

2. How standardized do we want competitions?

3. What process and standardization do we want for national championships?

But maybe I am getting ahead of myself, just sort of thinking aloud here.

Eric, if you and Chris would like to hash some of this out over PM, over phone calls, or I could set up a private forum on my power and bulk site, any way you want to do it let me know. I know Jedd and Smitty are really busy, and they are equal partners in this, but I want to put in some work and get something decided.

Like you Eric, I have thought about this for years and I have just been waiting for the right time.

[Bob Lipinski]

Also, just to add, I am by no means attached to that rule set. At that point in time, I was as much trying to accomodate what comps were already doing as I was providing guidelines for future comps.

Now that we have a little more unity and structure, we are in a better position to get more specific with the rules.

[John Beatty]

Guys-

I'd be willing to be involved, just don't know how much time I could put in starting mext year. I know the next 6 mo will be ok, and summer, then Julie will have a full year of classes where I'll be limited. After that, Max will be in school, too, so my time will free up again, so put me in for as much as I can.

Points - As far as standardization, This is good to an extent. We do need a list of standardized events for national & world records, but making comps all standard is BAD. You'll lose people to boredom. Plus losing newer guys as the more experienced guys with all the equipment keep getting better & widening the gap. Nobody is willing to put out money to travel & compete for long if they see themselves get killed every time. Bob's rules having the list of standardized events & having a certain amount in each meet is a good way to go. You have to keep the freedom to throw in some oddball events guys come up with. Plus, the oddball events are what spectators like. Especially if they see a few meets. I've been organizing meets since 1992, in PL, Strongman & Grip, and the stuff people remember is the oddball stuff you throw them. People still email me about the tire medley at the Snowman in 2003, asking when I'm having another meet. And people wanted the scale weight hold back at next year's BBB.

Eventually, as the sport grows, you'll need an elite level & an amatuer/novice level for the bigger meets. You can throw a pro/am, and a lot of am guys like to measure themselves against the elite, but as far as nats, and bigger comps, some should offer a split. Like in the 2003 Snowman (pro/am) mentioned above, a novice beat Brian Schoonveld & I (pros) in the tire flip medley & his name was Dave Ostlund. We thought then he'd go on to do well. He has.

TV - it obviously needs to get bigger exposure. There are so many cable/satellite networks that we should be able to get Nats on TV. We'll have to have the rules nailed down & some scripting available for commentators. Hell, they put the national SPELLING BEE on ESPN, why not grip? CMT would be an obvious choice to hit up, or an affiliated channel, as Big Steve has paved the way there. As I said before, we have to all get out there & do exhibitions. Most small towns have festivals & are always desperate for acts to fill down time, most will even pay you to do it. Schools, kids groups, malls, all sorts of stuff is out there. The thing is, whereever we do nats, it has to be at a venue that can draw a crowd, like a mall, even if it is a transient crowd that will watch for 10 min & move on. No major TV network will come to a garage to film a comp.

More as I think of it...