Old Timer's Elite Bends

[Tim71]

Okay everybody, we've all heard some of the claims of some old time strongmen's bends. How true do you think they are?

John Gagnon has been listed on the internet as being able to bend a railroad spike. One football player was even listed as being able to do that.

Question, were railroad spikes different dimminsions in the early 1900s? Zass I think was the one who was credited with a 5/8 by 5 inch SQUARE bend. Gazza can say for sure on this one. Another was credited with 5/8 by 5 inch round.

What do you guys think? I mean that would blow anybody today out of the water by a mile. Doesn't seem possible to me. I would think even an annealed bar of those dimminsions would be impossible.

Article obout strongmen

Now, the 1/2 inch square by 9inch bar of Atom's sounds feasable although the pics I've seen of his bars were not 9 inches long. Maybe there are other pics of these bars.

Thoughts?

Tim

[vikingsrule92]

I don't think it's humanly possible to bend a railroad spike. I have one and it's ENORMOUS!!! It isn't even feasable in my opinion. I don't think something that big made of ALUMINUM would even be possible to bend much less steel.

How long were the bars you've seen in pictures Tim? I think that sounds possible. It would be ridiculously tough though. Possible, but slightly unlikely in my opinion.

Kickboxer, are you serious? Atom is amazing and I don't know why you WOULDN'T want to be that guy? He's a legend and is a hero of mine.

[Alawadhi]

If Slim "The Hammer Man" talks high of the Atom then who are you to talk on him down? Lost his virginity? Are you trying to be funny? He IS A LEGEND.

Back to the topic, did those people bend these big spikes down to 2" unbraced? Or their definition of a bend is only a slight kink? I know that I know nothing about braced bending but maybe it's possible to put a dent on railroad spikes. Any thoughts?

[vikingsrule92]

If Slim "The Hammer Man" talks high of the Atom then who are you to talk on him down? Lost his virginity? Are you trying to be funny? He IS A LEGEND.

Back to the topic, did those people bend these big spikes down to 2" unbraced? Or their definition of a bend is only a slight kink? I know that I know nothing about braced bending but maybe it's possible to put a dent on railroad spikes. Any thoughts?

They're too short to do braced in my opinion. Maybe an expert like Tim could be more clear here but the one I have is about 6" long and that's too short to do braced

[Tfriend]

whats a "back lift" a squat?

[GarytheDino]

A wise man once said.........Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. The bearded lady line was funny.

[Tim71]

Gary,

I don't. I can't fathom how it could be done. I guess what I'm wondering is that all these strength historians who speak so highly of Zass and other guys, do they believe these 5/8 by 5 inch bends?

I think a backlift is when you're on all fours and just raise the platform up slightly with your back. I'm not a weightlifting expert though.

I can brace 6 inch stuff but the shorter the length, the less bracing helps. I've got a 6 inch RR spike too and it's about 5/8 inch square and I don't see how it would be possible pushing it against another piece of steel.

Interesting to hear what others think.

Tim

[Tim71]

I looked at the pic again and the one bar in this photo probably is 9 inches. The one with the loop in it though appears almost definately to be significantly longer. This is certainly MUCH more feasible than 5/8 by 5 inches square.

Atom's steel from Tom Black's site

Tim

[coreylan]

I looked at the pic again and the one bar in this photo probably is 9 inches. The one with the loop in it though appears almost definately to be significantly longer. This is certainly MUCH more feasible than 5/8 by 5 inches square.

Atom's steel from Tom Black's site

Tim

Nah, I think you were right the first time. If the bar in the picture is indeed 1/2 inch square it looks to be more like 13-14 inches long. It is certainly longer than 9 inches unless the picture has been altered or distorted somehow.

[climber511]

He got his start in the strongman business in 1969 when he happened to meet a 79 kg (175 lb) man in his 70s who could bend 60-penny railroad spikes in his bare hands and taught him how to back-lift elephants.

The above statement taken from the article shows what may be a difference in perspective - a 60d railroad spike? Either the spikes we all consider as "railroad spikes" have changed since those days or the author has not understood exactly what he was saying - a 60d is not a square spike the size of a modern railroad spike. One of many problems with historical feats of strength is that the stories were often written by newsmen with little or no understanding of what was actually involved. And many of the old time Strongmen were showmen as much as strongmen by todays standards - The Atom did several shows a day - I doubt he or anyone performed to their absolute maximum all the time. Even with pictures involved - it's easy to find stories that contradict the photographic evidence. As with most things, as time goes by the stories grow - reminds me of the 7# bass I caught back a few years - or was that 8#?

[Tim71]

Climber,

I thought about that too. The reporter could have been told, "60 penny spike" which is what some call a 60 penney nail, and somewhere along the line, "railroad" was added in their.

Still though, there are several claims of the young Samson bending a 5/8 by 5 inch bar and I think Gazza said Zass even was credited with 5/8 square at the same length. IF and I do say IF, somebody could bend a bar of that diminsion, then a modern day railroad spike would be possible.

I just can't fathom it though. Doesn't seem like you could pad it good enough and even then, doesn't seem like any part on the human body could take that force.

Even a micro kink in such a bar would be super-human.

I agree too that the bar looks significantly longer. My PR for 1/2 inch round is 9.5 inches and 1/2 inch square would be even fatter looking and that definately doesn't look like it.

Wished somebody who was really into the history would reply with some concrete answers. I've read these claims many times and I've even had a local guy tell me he watched some old guy from the sticks who bent a railroad spike.

I wished that company who stress tests stuff on that TV show would "calibrate" a railroad spike. Got to be thousands of pounds. Maybe Eric could purchase some more weights . Might have a sore everthing after that calibration though.

Tim

[David Horne]

Without going into this subject in length (as a book could be written on the subject) I think that each bend should be looked at individually.

Also it is fair to say that they would not have employed the very modern high double overhand bending style employed nowadays, and the wraps employed could be a hanky, or whatever. A majority of bends would have been braced in some fashion, even if it was just against their stomach.

I have many write ups, etc in my old books and mags, and we have to remember that most are done on 'the stage', and this is show business. We also know for sure that some old-time strongmen faked their lifting, so why not their bending?

All steel is different, just as it is now. But I know for fact that old British nails came in certain numbered grades, and the lowest was incredibly easy (my son Jason bent it at about aged 7). I got these nails from the old strongman Ronnie Tait. J.C. Tolson bent 4 x 6 nails together, and we can asumme from this that they were obviously either weak or thin nails.

I have handled many old-timers bars/nails in the past.

1. As mentioned above Ronnie's Tait's nails ranged from very easy to a good U.S. 60d strength nail. When I visited him at his home he still could bend and snap nails in his 80's, and still trais with them now in his 90's!

2. I have handled Charles Vansittart's 3/8" x 7" square bar he bent in the early 1900's. This is in David Webster's superb collection. It is bent over the angle, the way it should be, but for many years it was written about that he bent it the more difficult way (across the corner), but of course we know now that to have bent it over the flat would have been the more difficult bend.

3. I have in my collection 2 bars (a ¼” x 13mm square bar and 12 ½” x 10.2mm square bar) bent by Woodrow Bussey (old time strongman from Lufkin, Texas). This was sent to Angelo Iuspa (old time physical culture collector) in the c.1960’s. I also have the original Bussey to Iuspa postal package as well. I also have an article ‘You too can bend spikes!’ by Bussey from ‘Mr. America’ magazine, Vol.5 #8, February 1963. In this he is pictured bending the spikes over his knee, then takes it to between his legs.

Recently at the weightlifting Hall of Fame dinner I chatted to Jim Mills uncle who knew Harold Cope and he told me all about Cope's bending and snapping exploits. Harold was a specialist in this field, and it was a shame the Cope v Dyson match never came off.

Anyway, for a short note this has turned into a ramble, hopefully you're not bored with it.

I'd say that there are definitely more folk bending steel now than at any time. Also a lot more of the bends are scrutinised right now with certain steel used, certs, etc, etc. Not like in the past where a performer would just tell the audience what he was doing and the size of the steel, and to be honest it could have been anything!

David

[Ray]

Zass bent the 5/8ths started on the knee and then finished with a chest crush as witnessed

by Edward Aston in 1924, this was likened by David Willoughby as the equivalent of bending

a railroad spike. Said to be later duplicated by John Crossland Tolson.

Vansittart bent a wrought iron spike of 7" in length by 3/8ths diameter (Not Railroad)

The bars Greenstein used could also be bent by him with his teeth, the other end being secured,

this was said to be mild CRS 8-9" long.

Willoughby gives a rough guide to tensile strengths of the time? (Zass era?)

as cast iron = 15.000-30.000 pounds psi

malleable cast iron = 25.000 - 48.000 pounds psi

wrought iron = 42.000 - 52.000 pounds psi

From the book The Super Athletes i can't find mention of anyone bending actual Railroad spikes?

Handmade spikes http://www.glasgowsteelnail.com/List.htm

Edited December 1, 2007 by Ray

[antarath]

Tolson bent a 6" by 3/8" steel carriage bolt once. He also bent a 9 3/4" by 7/16" square into a horseshoe, but was said to be mild steel.

But his 1/2" by 12" bar bent around his bare neck sounds awfully painful

Still bothers me that no-one knows when he died

Mats

Edited December 1, 2007 by Mats Erik

[gazza]

Did Zass or Tolson realy bend those bars or the Atom or any oltime strongman for that matter for me as a bender 1st and foremost and not as a historian altho i do take alot of interest in oldtime feats especially those created before the advent of steriods.

These men mostly were all strong in there own right and had pet feats of strength unique to them they were often challenged by others and there reputations were put at stake all the time because thats how they made a living thats all they had was there reputation and ofcoarse there honour and integrity so once word got around that you had been beaten by so and so you were then 2nd best so this obviously affected ones income thats why alot of the old timers shyed away from direct competitions also you did have the main titles fought for but on the whole alot of it was also marketing ploys my managers and the like.

Arthur Saxon once beatSandow in an allround comp but inside one of saxons bars/dbs was liquid mecury which caused sandow to fail on this lift he sandow later got a courtruleing saying that saxon could not publicaly claim that he saxon had beaten sandow and was thus better/stronger which would obviously affect sandows earnings and status but sandow in his own mind and heart new he was beaten by the better/stronger man again reputation and status has alot to do with it especially if its your source of income.

Do i really think that Zass or Tolson bent those bars or the Atom or others well the Atoms stuff has been better documented and also Slim is still with us and has a vast collection of stuff of the Atoms as well as actually being there hundreds of times to witness it personally but and no offense here to SLIM but its his word which gives you as an individual a chioce do you believe him do you believe the claims for zass or tolson or others its upto you as an individual to decide and there is a big difference on decideing for yourself on what you believe and what others try to persuade you to believe.

I choose to believe what Zass and Tolson bent because in my mind that says that my bending still has along way to go and that i havent found my "LIMITS" yet it drives me on to constantly push myself physically especially were Zass is concernen he built his body on mostly Isometrics and is definately a pioneer in that regard you can see his body is built around a physical power rather than with the Atom a mental one also both obviously had great qualities in the other and i am constantly finding different things out with isos that i can apply to myself and do so i choose to believe that Zass did in his time push the boundaries of "NO LIMITS" wether its ever proven that he actually bent those peices who cares in my eyes its already had its affect its helped me get were i am with my bending and will continue to inspire and motivate me topush myself even further.

The Atom i feel altho a supremely strong man in physical strength wise also on a small man its his mind set i think that set him apart from everyone else his pain tolerance was 2nd to none i have his book do i believe all thats written about him i choose to again it matters not to me if some of his feats have been exagerated thats for others to worry about again the Atom like Zass installs something deep inside me and that his mindset the will to continually push the body and mind to achieve greater things with my bending i shure would have loved to have trained with the Atom and Zass.

Today the ownus to a large extent is on us to prove with video thats made alot easier and also witnesses and comps etc now me personally i do it for me to see how far i can push myself and there are lots of people here who believe what i have bent there are also lots that choose to not believe thats there right of choice the same as i can choose to believe or not to believe it should be an individual thing and not a decission based on your alledgence to friends or clicks.I have witnessed stuff that others were bending that was world class at the time was i believed know because i did not supply video or was in the right click at the time i have also witnessed stuff myself that should not have been passed but others let pass as i was not called upon as a witness so its swings and roundabouts choose to believe what you want to and not what others want you to or pressure you into.

On the subject of steel stock people say that todays steel is superior yes and no yes because we have discovered lots of other alloys since then which add to a benders arsenal like stainless,brass,alloss,g5s,g8s etc etc this makes it easier for us to compare with others but the steel today i feel altho i cannot test it is not of a standard quality meaning you can buy a length of HRS or CRS that steel length might consist of anything from scrap cars,cast iron,tin cans,ships bulk heads etc etc so while that steel is tested and comes out at a certain psi thats fine but that length or a piece of it might contain some hardened steel in it and be way harder than a piece at the other end of that bar hense the need for batch testing.

Now the oldtimers steel was mostly Iron OAR etc and the steel mills especially in Sheffield England had a very good quality control as alot of machine and tool steel was made so i think that the chances of getting regulated steel so to speak was easier but we will never no as you can only work with whats infront of you.

The oldtimers never used DO style up high as we know it they did finish it off in a DO style chest crush but they also braced alot more than we do today but was this down to ignorance of styles or hardness/strength of stock used i can bet a bit of both although saying ignorance is a bit silly on my behalf as i can bet that Zass and the Atom etc have probably forgotten more than i have learned so far.

Remember also that alot of these oldtimers were bending with hankerchiefs,barehanded etc there were a few useing leather but there was no double wrapping etc and you can bet that a bar was bent fully before it was classed as bent none of this leave it at 40-45degrees in that regard we are takeing steps backwards not forwards No DISRESPECT but how can you claim to have bend a bar/piece of steel if its not fully bent its only partially bent would the oldtimers have been satisfied with a partial bend and here we are questioning there bends FULL COMPLETE BENDS AT THAT

[Ray]

Mats

I was told John Crossland Tolson died in March 1975 in Wakefield.

[climber511]

We have today several "Strongman" out doing shows currently that don't compete or do "certs" that are certainly as strong as anyone anywhere has been. Dennis Rogers reverse bends wrenches etc that are hard to imagine. Pat routinely defines what is considered possible. I wonder how history will treat them, what with the video etc proof that will exist. I mean - just how strong was that wrench Dennis folded into an S? I doubt they care but it is interesting stuff to talk about now and then.

[Tim71]

Climber,

Great point about the wrenches. Nice thing about FBBC certs and graded bolts is that it really shows just where a person is in the bending. Wrenches vary so much it isn't even funny. They look incredible for shows and don't get me wrong, some wrenches are an incredible bend but some are just about like a griprite spike. Really, to truly judge a wrench bend, you'd have to at least know the brand, and even then there are some variences. Makes me think, next time I post a wrench bend I'll be sure to include the brand.

David,

Thanks for the historical information. I try to keep in mind too, that alot of these guys come from an era of 2 headed snakes, escape artist challenges, sideshows and such. Even Houdini would alter some of hit escapes the night before when they were on display in the theatres according to some historians. Not that these people were unusually dishonest or anything, it was just the nature of the era; survival if you will. You're probably true in saying that you can't lump them all in together. I mean 10.2 mm by 12.5 inches sounds very doable and probably legit. 5/8 square by 5 inches is another story. Even 1/2 inch square by 9 inch sounds plausible. Thanks for the history.

Ray,

If those numbers are accurate, then todays "mild steel", or A36 hot rolled steel would be tons tougher than that. A36, has a YIELD, mind you yield not tensile strength of 36,000 PSI. Tensile would be more like 60,000 or so. That's minimum. I've never heard specific mention of the qualities of their steel, or iron. Thanks for that info, it's very telling. Before A36 was the norm, M1020 was popular in this country and it had a minimum yield of 30,000 which would make today's steel 20% harder to bend then stuff from Atom's era. Earlier than that, and those iron figures you posted would be much easier still.

I wonder, if one can still purchase cast iron in round bars? I wasn't aware that Iron would bend so much, I figured it would break.

Gazza,

First, thanks so much for your knowledgeable input. Part of me is like you. I'd LOVE to believe that somebody could actually bend a railroad spike or 5/8 by 5 inch square. The skeptic in me can't help but fight that though. I mean look how far ahead of the competition you are right now but even your best bend is nowhere near Zass's bend. You've broke your wrist on a much lesser bend than that. Maybe they braced it you might say? Still, a braced bend of that magnitude would be miles above what anybody is doing now. On one hand, these old-timers (a couple of them anyway) could bend this "off the charts" stuff, but on the other, they chose more often than not to bend the tried and true 60 penny nail. Plus, why was their lifting not so "off the charts"? Not trying to breed skepticism, but just pointing out interesting points. BTW, the 5/8 square bend would probably be about like bending a 3/4 round bar at 8 inches. Try immagining that.

I'll say this, Atom's bend of 1/2 inch square by 9 inches sounds doable to me. Extreme, but doable and if anybody could do it today with today's steel then it would be a truly historical bend.

Tolson's 7/16 by 9 3/4 bend sounds very doable and one I'd like to try if I could find 7/16 square.

Where my doubt comes in is the 5/8 by 5 inch and RR spike bends. Those would make Atom's bends minor league.

What about this John Gagnon fellow? He's credited with a RR spike bend. Question, could spikes from earlier years been much smaller? A guy told me that maybe if I could find a picture of that famous golden spike from out west then maybe it would give an idea of the general size of spikes back then.

Don't think I'm trying to tear down our heros of yesteryear. I do think they were insanely strong and deserve respect and recognition for that. But like Gazza said, marketing and managers may have had something to do with it. Kinda like Andre the giant being 7 foot 4 according to wrestling promotors. He wasn't but it sounded good.

Very interesting to me what everybody thinks. I appreciate all the input. Plus, it's nice to discuss something different from time to time.

Those guys were tough though. No doubt about it.

Later pals!

Tim