Support Grip For 20 Rep Deadlifts

[timiacobucci]

I know allot of you guys lift heavy that grip train hard. My question is for those of you that have heard of or done the 20 rep breathing squat workout, what is outlined in the book supersquats they sell at ironmind.

The basic premise of this is the breathing rest to keep going while standing under load without ever racking the weight.

I read an idea about using this workout routine with deadlifts. Does anyone think it is possible to do this in the same manner as the squat routine? Staying under load at lockout during the rest? I guess I should just give it a shot but the major limitation in this is grip. It is one thing to pull a heavy high rep deadlift set, but to try and pause while holding onto it the whole time I think may be impossible without wraps.

Do you guys with crazy support grip think you could do a full 4-5 minute 20 rep breathing deadlift set and still hold onto the weight? Would endurance support strength respond to this quickly or would it simply be a major limiting factor for this exercise?

Also is there some quick way to transition to wraps or some other grip support to maximize the grip work and then continue when it is gone? I have never used wraps and don't have any but it seems to take some time to get them setup and that break would ruin the whole point of the exercise.

[JS27]

If your primary focus with this routine is to get stonger and gain muscle then you should use the wraps from start to finish and not worry about training your grip.

[big bri]

i think your form will suffer greatly from doing this sort of routine with an increased risk of injury as a result.

[GarytheDino]

I have a video on the link below, but I use straps. I do specific grip work for hands. I deadlift for back.

[Hubgeezer]

I would consider the routine you describe using a trap bar instead of a regular bar. Besides, trap bar deadlifts are probably closer to squats than they are deadlifts.

[Klicks]

i think your form will suffer greatly from doing this sort of routine with an increased risk of injury as a result.

I agree, I have lost form in a heavy 1 rep deadlift and injured myself as a result. Nothing major, but it put me out of training for 3 weeks. I can imagine after doing heavy 20 rep deadlifts one's form would greatly deteriorate, and be easily injured.

[The Mac]

Use straps if you need to, don't if you don't.

Do it and find out.

[viper]

i dont know what you class as crazy but i couldn't do it without going mixed, which i never do - ive done 20 rep deads before, the problem is you're form will break down massively, too much of a risk for injury

[timiacobucci]

If your primary focus with this routine is to get stonger and gain muscle then you should use the wraps from start to finish and not worry about training your grip.

That makes sense, just do the exercise for the point of the exercise and do grip stuff after the fact. I just can't help think that would be a massive grip workout just to try and hold on that long. And how else are you going to work towards holding it without wraps if you use them the whole time?

I have a video on the link below, but I use straps. I do specific grip work for hands. I deadlift for back.

That is pretty close to exactly what I was thinking. You make that look to easy. I guess I will have to just try it myself but how is the standing rest? I'm not trying to say that standing under a squat is easy but it seems much less restful to stand holding a deadlift.

I would consider the routine you describe using a trap bar instead of a regular bar. Besides, trap bar deadlifts are probably closer to squats than they are deadlifts.

That sounds fun to try too but I don't have a trap bar, also why would you want to make it more like squats? You could just actually do squats. Although that style would probably have better carryover for something like farmers walk.

[timiacobucci]

i think your form will suffer greatly from doing this sort of routine with an increased risk of injury as a result.

I agree, I have lost form in a heavy 1 rep deadlift and injured myself as a result. Nothing major, but it put me out of training for 3 weeks. I can imagine after doing heavy 20 rep deadlifts one's form would greatly deteriorate, and be easily injured.

I think the wieght you need to drop from a regular set to start doing this, at least for me most likely, will be allot to be able to complete all 20 in a row without ever resting it on the ground. I think a weight that much under what you can normally deadlift will be hard to get hurt with.

I think keeping good from is probably allot harder on a heavy max effort pr attempt than simply fatiguing and loosing it. Like any deadlift it is a fine line to pull hard and pull correctly, you need to end the set when your form breaks down regardless of the reason.

i dont know what you class as crazy but i couldn't do it without going mixed, which i never do - ive done 20 rep deads before, the problem is you're form will break down massively, too much of a risk for injury

Also I lift atlas stones so I think my round back strength is pretty strong. I mean with a lighter weight deadlift the worst it can do is break my form down into that of an atlas stone lift. I also tend to use more knee bend and leg strength from the start out of habit from doing O lifts.

[Hubgeezer]

I would consider the routine you describe using a trap bar instead of a regular bar. Besides, trap bar deadlifts are probably closer to squats than they are deadlifts.

That sounds fun to try too but I don't have a trap bar, also why would you want to make it more like squats? You could just actually do squats. Although that style would probably have better carryover for something like farmers walk.

a) You would want it to be more like squats because squats are a better exercise than deadlifts.

b) Yes, doing squats would be an excellent idea.

c) I have no idea why someone would want to do a set of 20 reps of deadlifts, and if there is a respected guru out there who says they are a good idea, someone cite who it is. It sounds like a good way to get injured fast, but what do I know, I am just someone on an Internet board.

[climber511]

From time to time in the past, I've gone short periods of time doing high rep workouts - often 20 and sometimes 100 reps of an exercise including dead lifts with no bad results. But with no particular advantage either except for the mental aspect of keeping on going when you'd really rather quit - but that in itself has a real value at times also. For me and for climbing, I've done and continue to do 100 hundreds in the squat (100# for 100 reps). It is a terrific conditioner for the mountains. Certainly not something I'd want to do very often but shaking up your system once in a while can be a good thing. I think if you treat your dead lifts as 20 singles instead of a set of 20, you should be all right - just don't start banging them out and bouncing them off the floor, that might not be a good thing.

[Steve B.]

Years ago a powerlifter named Steve Wilson did high rep deadlift workouts and he was a 800+DLer.

The thing is he only used roughly 30% of his max single for 15-20 reps or about 225 to 275lbs.

I don't know how he put it all together though.Perhaps some of you older powerlifters or historians can chime in on this.

[timiacobucci]

a) You would want it to be more like squats because squats are a better exercise than deadlifts.

b) Yes, doing squats would be an excellent idea.

c) I have no idea why someone would want to do a set of 20 reps of deadlifts, and if there is a respected guru out there who says they are a good idea, someone cite who it is. It sounds like a good way to get injured fast, but what do I know, I am just someone on an Internet board.

Hey man sorry if I came of a bit snide about the squat comment. I really love squats and want to try this specifically becase I like the 20 rep squat thing and btw deadlifts are better than squats, everybody knows that, come on now.

But seriously the way I am talking about doing this is the same as the supersquats 20 rep breathing pause between reps with a 10 rep weight idea. It is not the same as high rep endurance stuff. It isn't 20 singles or clusters of mini sets. No offense to those that like this sort of stuff it is very difficult too. I am talking about resting in the lockout and only going down again right when you are ready to pull it back up again. The only thing I'm not sure about is that you really won't get as good a rest in the breathing pauses between reps at the end of the set like you can with squats.

If you're still not sure what I am talking about here is a video of the late great Jesse Marunde blowing up a 20 rep squat with 407 lbs. It is at the end of the video.

[TelegraphKey]

imho deadlifts are not inferior to squats, but obviously you have to watch out for form breaking down. Really deadlift might be "the" single most functional lift of all, at least of all regular gym, barbell lifts. If that's true, then it seems to me 20 rep breathing deadlifts should be just as possible as breathing squats. Somebody must have seriously tried this sometime. I tried it once a couple years ago, when I also tried 20 rep supersquats. Basically I wimped out & never went back to it. But I don't see why, if you're seriously motivated, you can't pick a light enough weight that you can do mixed-grip, 20 reps, breathing pauses. Hell, I think 12 reps is probably enough. There's nothing especially evil or bad about deadlifts, you just have to concentrate (and part of concentrating is having the sense to use a light enough weight, maybe no more than 60% of your 1 rep max). Definitely use mixed-grip, though, not overhand grip; but you also shouldn't "need" to use straps if you're really motivated. After all, the deadlift is the single most functional barbell lift; you want to tax everything, including your grip, for real-world strength gain (but again, use mixed-grip, not overhand).

[MalachiMcMullen]

I've always imagined 20 rep deadlifts as being a great way to get injured but I've never tried them, never met someone who tried them and never talked to anyone who tried them. I say go for it but as climber said treat them as singles, singles in quick succession but singles. Do what this guy did and you'll be fine I say.

[climber511]

At the last Atomic Athlete Picnic Roger had a Millstone DL challenge. I can't remember for sure (lots of things actually ) but I think it was 290# maybe? The winner did I think close to 30 reps. I just don't see them as all that dangerous I guess - I've seen sets of 20 rep squats where the form broke down quite a bit and looked a lot like a GM.

[The Mac]

I'd rather have a "form breakdown" on deadlifts rather than squats, all you have to do is drop the barbell - even with straps you just follow the bar to the floor.

[timiacobucci]

I've seen sets of 20 rep squats where the form broke down quite a bit and looked a lot like a GM.

What is GM? 30 straight no pause?

And the guy in that video is hardcore. I agree the pauses look like a good idea but that sort of nullifies the whole idea of the workout. I will just have to give it a shot and report back. I want to work back into the 20 rep squats first to get the tempo and mindset first before I try these so it might be a little while but I will update you guys when I do it.

[climber511]

I've seen sets of 20 rep squats where the form broke down quite a bit and looked a lot like a GM.

What is GM? 30 straight no pause?

And the guy in that video is hardcore. I agree the pauses look like a good idea but that sort of nullifies the whole idea of the workout. I will just have to give it a shot and report back. I want to work back into the 20 rep squats first to get the tempo and mindset first before I try these so it might be a little while but I will update you guys when I do it.

Sorry - GM is Good Morning.

[John Beatty]

I've tried for 20 reps with 505 a few times (17 or 18 is the best I've done), I think it's easily within reach with a little training. My form doesn't really break down much, I just have a tendency to try harder to get my hips under & have to drag it up the thighs a little as the hamstrings fatigue (that's what hits me 1st, my back holds up just fine). I'd like to try for it this spring & see if I can get it on vid.

[TelegraphKey]

People keep guessing 20-rep deadlifts is a "good way to get injured." imho it's more like people just don't want to do it. I really don't think there's much difference, as long as someone is as motivated to do it as they would be on supersquats.

I read a long time ago in PL USA, from Louie Simmons I believe, about him being disappointed in himself for missing a deadlift at a meet, so he went home & whipped out 20 reps at 315. I really think the bias against doing deadlifts as hard as squats, is mostly because people just assume squats are all you need. imo, either one (deadlift or squat) is all you need.

"GM" is a Good Morning, which is barbell on back (like squat), legs mostly straight (some small flex okay), and you bend over, sort of like a stiffleg or romanian deadlift, except with the bar on your back.

[timiacobucci]

Sorry - GM is Good Morning.

Drrr. I'm retarded, I was thinking general manager? general mills? something doesn't make sense here.

[Hubgeezer]

Sorry, double post.

Edited November 12, 2007 by Hubgeezer

[Hubgeezer]

People keep guessing 20-rep deadlifts is a "good way to get injured." imho it's more like people just don't want to do it. I really don't think there's much difference, as long as someone is as motivated to do it as they would be on supersquats.

My understanding is that Randy Strossen's book, SuperSquats was embraced by many many people, coaches, experts, etc. It probbably put him on the map, as I believe he wrote it before he reintroduced Warren Tetting's grippers, first advertised in IronMan Magazine in the mid-1960s, and started IronMind, MILO, etc.

There was nothing really new in his book. He basically recyled John McCollum's (spelling I know) work written up in Strength and Health Magazine in the 1960s. His columns, I believe, and Joe Roark can correct me if I am wrong, were recycling the work of someone from the 1930s.

Arthur Jones' first article, which you can find on the Internet for free, was an article written in Iron Man magazine in the summer of 1970 called "The Upper Body Squat". It has nothing to do with a 20 rep routine, but he got EVERYONE'S attention because he was saying "what if" other body parts could be worked to the effectiveness level that squats are. Just the idea of how effective squats were, and the possibility that it could apply to other areas, revolutionized strength training forever.

I thought that the original posting was not "can someone do deadlifts for 20 reps", but instead substitute deadlifts for squats as outlined in Dr. Strossen's book. If I am not mistaken, Strossen says, "take what you can squat for 10 reps and do it for 20. Add weight every single workout". So, I pose the question, "is that a good way to increase muscle size and strength quickly", as represented in Super Squats? The point is not "can someone do 20 reps of a deadlift", but can high rep HEAVY deadlifts be the cornerstone of a workout program? Is that something embraced by people in the know? I say no, and believe it is a good way to get injured. I don't proclaim to be an expert, but I would like to hear if there is an expert out there who says, "yeah, just take Randy Strossen's Super Squats and substitute Dead Lifts and you will be fine, you will get the same results".

Is there? Who is it? Where did they publish it? I would like to buy a copy to read, as it sounds like something any serious strength athlete should have.