The use of fomulas in competitions...

[Guest OoklaTheMok]

I believe that this topic was addressed here before, but I wanted to bring it up again as I am curious as to what others think, particularly those people who actually compete in different strength sports and are affected by it.  I am curious about this because, as grip contests grow and new ones spring up, I think it is a consideration that people will have to deal with for the 'sport' overall.

Anyway, instead of talking about it generally, I thought one might as well look at the recent Iron Grip Championship, which sounds like it was a great competition.

So, if you look at the results just figuring placings with no formulas applied to the results people put forward, this is what you get:

Actual Results (Formula)       Results with No Formula

1.  David Horne                1. David Horne

2.  Jim Wylie                    2. Jim Wylie

3.  Liz Talbot                   3.  Kalle Lane

4.  Michael Daly                4. Michael Daly

5.  Martin Whittred            5.  Steve Gardner

6.  Kalle Lane                    6.  Brian Carlton

7.  Steve Gardner              7.  Marc Wylie

8.  Brian Carlton                8.  Martin Whittred

9.  Marc Wylie                   9. Liz Talbot

10.  Richard Visor               10.  Richard Visor

INTERMEDIATES

Results (w/formula)        No Formula

1.Jason Horne                      1.  Jason Horne

2.  Richard Scott                  2.  Arne Perrson

3.  Arne Perrson                   3.  Richard Scott

4.  Ed Hommers                    4.  Gary Hunt

5.  Gary Hunt                       5.  Ed Hommers

NOVICE

Results (w/formula)          No Formula

1.  Andrew Christie                   1.  Faheem Chauhan

2.  Oliver Horne                        2.  Waseem Chauhan

3.  Waseem Chauhan                3.  Andrew Christie

4.  Faheem Chauhan                 4.  Louis Wilson

5.  Scott Essery                       5.  Scott Essery

6.  Louis Wilson                        6.  Paul Paterson

7.  Paul Paterson                       7.  Ian Marsland

8.  Ian Marsland                        8.  Oliver Horne

9.  Matt Makousky                     9.  Matt Makousky

Interesting.  Obviously the biggest differences are in the OPEN and NOVICE classes.  So, what does everybody think of changing acutal placings via formula?

[RSW]

What is the formula ?  I know it involves age, bodyweight and gender.

Robert

[Guest OoklaTheMok]

I don't know what the formula used was... you would have to ask David.

All I did was compare the results that he posted after applying the formula against the way people ranked in each event based on un-altered actual weight/time, 'cause David also went to the trouble to post all that info.  Figured someone might as well make a spreadsheet and analyze it.  

[Paul A Marsland]

It's interesting to see how some stayed in the same position regardless of formula and some dropped right out of the awards!!  Some people would be giving their grippers back.

Paul.

[Slayer]

I am not sure exactly how the formula worked, but in general would have to say that i don't think formulas serve a purpose. To give or take away points from someone based on their age, gender of bodyweight seems to defeat the purpose of having a competition of strength, especially at a grip contest where weight and age don't come in to play very much.  If I compete in a contest I want to win or lose based on what  I actually acomplished and not on the result of a formula.

[David Horne]

To give or take away points from someone based on their age, gender of bodyweight seems to defeat the purpose of having a competition of strength, especially at a grip contest where weight and age don't come in to play very much.

So an athlete has the same strength he or she had when they are old as they had in their 20-30's?

[Paul A Marsland]

Dave I think what Slayer is trying to say is that formulas when based on age/gender can work for or against someone dependant on where they fit within their specfic formula.

Having a strong (very) strong grip  REGADLESS of age and gender has been clearly demonstrated at the grip contests and in other areas of the grip world.  So in this context the younger person has in fact a STRONGER grip than someone in their 20's or 30's,  this is then excabbreated(in competition)  with a % simply because of their age etc. So the older person is at an immediate disadvantage because of there age and lifting experience.   The FACT still remains that the strongest grip should win, be that a 15 year old girl or a 50 year old man.  ???

Paul.

[Bill Piche]

Why not just have gender and age categories?  And bodyweight categories if necessary.  Look at Masters and Teen powerlifting...

Best lifter could maybe be by formula, but forumlas still have problems even with a TON of quantitative data behind them (look at powerlifting).

[Guest StrongerthanArne]

I agree with Bill that having gender and age groups would be the best way to go. However, this is my view and David is fully entitled to use whatever system he wants. I would do well in a formula based grip contest, largely because I am 40 years old and fairly light. However, I would much rather win a contest because I was the strongest. It is part of life to get older and weaker and not be able to win strength competitions anymore.

[elizabeth talbot]

Of course as I've said before I will run the competition whatever way I want to! We have not got enough juniors/masters or females to make it competitive for them and of course keep their interest. Who the #### wants to win a class when you're the only competitor in it? It always amuses me how many opinions I get from people who have never run a grip contest in their life. The exception here is Mikael who thinks that the bodyweight issue is a dirty word. Big lifts off the floor, hammer curls, etc, etc all can be enhanced with extra strength gained by more bodyweight/muscle in other bodyparts. You don't see Naim Sulymengo competing against Ronnie Weller, why? Because of the huge difference in bodyweight, and this is the reason why bodyweight classes are in place. Now as you know I had agreed to 3 bodyweight classes and dropping of bodyweight/age/gender formulae for the Europeans so why no mention of this?

As the figures show I would have won the contest any way it was run.

David

[Nathan Say]

Not if the person who lifts the most weight finiishes last...  :p

[OldGuy]

I think that in a grip  contest there should only be categories based on experience and an open event. Look at Bruce White he is both getting up there in age and also a small man. He would win most competitions without a formula applied. If you are going to formula in age sex weight and so on, where does it end ? What about hand size and a persons height? There are to many unavoidable variables. Keep it simple base it purely on strength. After all if the formula worked and made everything fair, all the competitors would finish in a tie.

[elizabeth talbot]

If there were more women for me to compete against then there would be nothing I would like more. As it is, there are none, or at least none in this country. When we travel to Sweden in March, Arne is hoping that a swedish strongwoman he knows will compete against me, and I am very excited about this. However, what is essentially importnat to me is that I love lifting, and competing too. I don't want to compete against myself, what's the point of entering a women's category and coming away with a trophy I only have to turn up for? I've said it before, it's nothing but an empty award that will end up in the bin (as has happened). A recent study that we have seen (I can't remember by whom at the moment, but could find it out if necessary) indicates that a woman's upper body strength is approximately 66% of a man's. Therefore the formulae that we used are pretty much exact. I don't want to sound big headed, but I think I'm one of the best women in the world at what I do - all round grip strength. So why shouldn't my scores correlate with some of the best men in the world? If not the best? There are not enough competitons, there are not enough competitors, and with the attitude that some members of this board have, there never will be. Any competition, however run, is better than none.

As a finisher, I have said that for the grip contest in Sweden next year, if Anna cannot compete, then I will happily enter amongst the men, with no age or sex formulae. I also believe that I won't be the one in last position.

See you in March, Mikael.

Elizabeth

[elizabeth talbot]

Oldguy,

Run your own contest and you'll soon find out how many variables and difficulties there truly are. One can only do one's best.

Nathan,

Are you implying somehow that Richard Vizor, who came last, in fact lifted the most weight? Interesting.

[bseedot]

Firstly, I don’t know what or how the formula works that was used at this year’s British Iron Grip Champs, but my guess tells me that this formula was not created with grip strength in mind whatsoever- please correct me if I'm wrong.  Whatever the formula used this year I think that it’s fair to extend my argument to any formula used in any grip contest to date.  The main problem, as I see it, is that there is no scientific evidence that these formulas also correlate and carry-over to events of grip strength.  As has been pointed out, there is dissension even in the sport for which they were intended.  Because the formulas used, whatever they may be, seem to even things out in the sport of grip strength is no indication that the formulas used work properly and fairly.  

Secondly, there is no evidence that bodyweight and age add to, or take away from, events of grip strength.  Heck, a 40 year-old won this year’s British contest, even without the use of formulas.  Now, I’m going to put you on the spot a bit here David only because you did ask the question.  Are you stronger now, at age 40, than you were at age 20, 25, and 30?  At the 2001 Super Grip Challenge a 41 year old missed a first place finish by only the narrowest of margins, again, even without the formula used.

Finally, if formulas are to be used in a grip strength contest, much research and testing needs to be done to determine what those formulas should be, and what variables should be included, for the specific sport of grip strength.  Personally, I believe that task to be next to impossible, if not entirely impossible.  The preliminary evidence, in the form of testimony, stated on this very board over the last couple of years is that age and bodyweight may very well have little positive correlation to grip strength.  If formulas are to be used in grip strength contests, we should also be looking at variables such as hand size, hand thickness, etc.

BC.

[Guest StrongerthanArne]

David,

I respect your view on the subject and anyone who enters your competition do so with the full understanding that a formula based scoring system is in place. However, I do expect to be able to discuss, and critisize, various scoring systems, even on this forum, without those involved taking it as a personal attack.

[elizabeth talbot]

Hi Brian,

All the formulas we use are from the IAWA Allround weightlifting organisation, and we have basically used them from the very first contest. It's only in the last 3 contests that I actually got any age percentage.

Anyway, you asked about my strengths at various ages. In the last couple of years I have found that I do not recover from training or injuries at the same pace as I did when I was younger, this has resulted in a definite loss of strength in certain areas, which includes my grip.

Big lifts off the floor, hammer curls, etc, etc all can be enhanced with extra strength gained by more bodyweight/muscle in other bodyparts. You don't see Naim Sulymengo competing against Ronnie Weller, why? Because of the huge difference in bodyweight, and this is the reason why bodyweight classes are in place. --With more back and leg strength maybe I could pull a bigger one hand deadlift than Goerner!

The hand size question is very interesting and important, and such a massive aid in gripping. Unfortunately as you have seen my hands are small, in fact about 1 1/2" shorter in finger length than the likes of Jim Wylie and Kalle Lane, both large men.

David

[Bill Piche]

"I don't want to sound big headed, but I think I'm one of the best women in the world at what I do - all round grip strength."

No doubt this is true.  The pool of those who are women and do all around grip training is pretty much nill. But, it's even worse than the # of grip trainees in the world in general.  Keep in mind I am not saying you wouldn't be at the top even if there were a lot of ladies out there crushing COC's and doing table top wrist curls.

[gazza]

I would just like to say if it was not,for the likes of David andElizabeth,nick,arne,kevin fulton etc,we all would not have the chance to compete in such fantastic and well organized

competitions.

I think that most people are missing the point,in that,when you enter a competition,you enter on noing beforehand what

the rules and regulations for that paticularcontest are,then you decide whether or not to compete,if you do not like the rules,do not compete simple as that.

i think to many peple are critisising,what the likes off david+elizabeth aredoing,makeing more people aware of contests and grip in general.

Look what happened to Brians resent attempt to get a competition going,people cold not be bothered,getting ,off

there butts.

So dont go giving david and elizabeth a hard time,i for one will

attend,every forthcomeing comp that david and elizabeth hold

and i am not bothered whether,the rules stay the same or change everytime.

I think sour grapes on some peoples behalf.

Would just like to also add,elizabethTalbot did 165kilos

table top wrist curl,as well as other things,and beat me in every exercise on the day,and would of aswell if there was no

points system.

Any armchair accademics,think there hard enough,come on over to the next British Grip Champs,or shut thi cakehole.

[Guest StrongerthanArne]

Armchair academic? None have critisized David nor Elizabeth. As I have understood it, we have been discussing the concept of applying a formula to a grip contest. This is different from discussing people. Gazza, being an academic myself, I may come over to the British comps some day just to kick your ass.

[gazza]

Strongerthanarne

Look forward to the challenge.

[OldGuy]

We are allowed to have and give opinions on anything. I have never been the President of the USA and yet I have my opinions on G W Bush.

[Guest OoklaTheMok]

I just wanted to jump on here and say that, in response to Gazza or or whoever it was who said it, that *my* intent was NOT to criticize David Horne in any way.

I think that I went out of my way when I was trying to help support Brian's effort to start a competition to point out that, in my estimation, there was NOBODY in the WORLD who was making much of an effort outside David Horne and Kevin Fulton to promote grip strength as a strength sport.  So, my hat's off to them, now as always.

I like to discuss differing aspects of competition and sport.  What is necessary to make something grow?  What is the *right direction* in which to try and make something grow?  

As for armchair academics, in my original post I specifically asked *people who compete* how they feel about formulas.

Now, to continue the thread, I thought it was interesting how Elizabeth pointed out that if she were in a women's class by herself, it would be a hollow victory.  I agree.  I have received much more satisfaction over the years going to meets and strongman competitions that are hard-fought and coming out in third place than showing up and competing against noone and getting a first.

That said, though, is it any less of a hollow victory if you beat someone not because of what you did, but because of some math 'applied' to what you did?

The only person I can answer that question for is me.  AND, I can actually look at it semi-objectively, without involving anyone else in the analysis.

Now, in 2000 I competed in the SuperGrip contest.  I was losing weight to compete in the 220#s at the Central USA Strongman a couple months later, so I was down to 230#.  I think I did a Fulton deadlift of like 325#.  In 2001 I competed in the SuperGrip at a bodyweight of 271#, as I had gained weight back (plus about 15) for North America's Strongest Man in October.  I think I did a double-overhand Fulton deadlift of 355#.

So, in 2000 at 230#, I did 325#.  In 2001, at 271#, I did 355#.  

Who is stronger?

I am guessing that, according to whatever formula was used (Lynch?) my 2000 performance would beat my 2001 performance.  Should the '2000 Jason Keen' beat the '2001 Jason Keen'?

#### NO.  Why?  I was stronger in 2001.  Bottom line.  I can tell you that I was stronger in 2001 than 2000.  I don't care how much more I weighed or whether I was more of a man or what, I was stronger.  That is that.  As far as I know, that is what the 'strength sports' are intended to contest.

The sad thing about the use of a formula like this is how it can make you answer the question of 'how do I do better next year?'  Is the answer to that question to try and get stronger and add 10 pounds to each of your lifts, while gaining 3-4 pounds of muscular bodyweight?  Nope.  That will only hurt your placing.  The easiest way to place higher in a strength contest using formulas is to try and lose 20 pounds while maintaining about the same level of strength, and I feel that is ridiculous.  People should be rewarded for getting stronger, not for getting smaller and weaker.

But I digress.  

P.S. --  As for Naim v. Weller, again, David answered the question himself there.  That is why you have weight classes, and those two *are* in different classes, instead of being compared to each other via some random calculation.  It is much more fair to have people of like weight and gender compete against each other and use the *actual* weights they lifted to determine who wins than have Nikolai Peschalov and Hossein Rezazaedeh compete in the same class at the Olympics and then say that Peschalov is the 'winner' and he is 'stronger' because he weighs so much less than the super heavyweights.

Really, it is a never-ending debate.  Even in O-lifting, some friends I have say that for a list of the 'best ever' you should consider total weight lifted per pound of bodyweight, and some say you should consider how many kilos a lifter's total was over his bodyweight.  

I will be interested to see how people reply.  I really would like to hear what everybody has to say about it, one way or the other.

[elizabeth talbot]

Agreed. Everyone is allowed their own opinion and this is extremely important. We are not disparaging anyone's opinions. This is also very important. For me the issue seems to be that David and I both put a huge amount of energy and effort into running this contest, as David has done for years. We are now facing people, who for the main part, and intended with no disrespect, have not run any competitions themselves, and consider that their opinions are more important than the reality of the contest that we have actually put in place. About this time last year David also received the same criticisms about his contest. Some of the same people were involved. Opinions are great, by all means hold them and voice them, but you will notice that neither David nor I will ever criticise another contest that has been hosted: if nothing else, this is merely out of respect for the person making the effort to run it.

We want to run competitions for the sake of running them, to provide fun, entertainment and above all exciting competition for people who are in a sport that is otherwise obscure and unnoticed. We hope people enjoy them. We certainly do. There will never be the perfect formula, or the perfect method of running a contest. But you have to start somewhere, and if we didn't Britain would probably be without this means of bringing together like-minded people in such a way.

Wannagrip, I just wanted to make a point. I may not be the best, but would truly like to be and work towards that goal. Who doesn't? I train hard, I love it. There is nothing that I would like more than for someone to challenge me and beat me. I want women to be strong and realise that they won't break if they give something a go. At the moment it hasn't happened. I hope it will.

Oldguy, my point was not that you are unable to make a comment or have an opinion, just that I wish our efforts we apppreciated rather than dissected. I apologise if you did not realise this.

Gazza, lastly (and Mikael, it's all in good fun) I'll be there cheering you on.

Elizabeth

[bseedot]

Let me state, and make perfectly clear, that the intent of this thread, if I may speak for Jason briefly, is to discuss the use of formulas in grip contests.  As Gazza and I discussed, in person, at considerable length last week, sentiments expressed in writing can often be misinterpreted and writers often assume that the reader will understand the intent of the post fully.

For me, it's not about discussing whether it's fair for X to get Y percentage added to their score, nor is it to discuss why Q gets "penalized" for being a heavy person or why R gets percentage points added for being a teen.  It's not even about discussing the British Iron Grip Championships or the Super Grip Challenge.  The intent of my contribution to this thread is to be the most general in nature.  

Now, contests having been contested, competitors having competed, they will from time to time make for good examples in helping explain my opinion more fully, but it remains my intent to keep the issue as general as can be.  I think that that is the end that will make this discussion most productive.

BC.