"fast Closing" Vs Negatives

[tusenkonstnar]

Hello, I'm writing this to hear if there are others with same experience as mee or if I should change anytrhing within my training.

I close CoC2 mmost of the times I try but it has taken me a long time to get there, guess my genes and handstrength doesn't go together very well.

Anyhow I have tried a lot of negatives (it seems to be the best way of gaining strengt when reading here) BUT i have gotten very slow progress from negatives. Actuallty what helped me getting to the CoC2 was when I used CoC1 and alway made sure to do the reps very fast, as trying to accelerate when closing it. I sometimes also used the CoC but with my hands placed close to the spring (which gave a recistance somewhere above 1.5).

Anyone else that have found out that closing an easier gripper very fast (accelerating) has given much more gain in maxpower than using negatives? [i can't stop wondering if I do something wrong with my negatives]

BR

[viper]

i dont often do negatives - a negative is just that, a negative, its not a gripper close, you need to train the positive >not that negatives dont work the hands, they will help your hold strength

you should always try an close the gripper as fast as possible - theres no go in slow! try opening an closing your hands as fast as possible under water or what i like to call 'rapid fire' gripper sets >my best time is 11 seconds for 50 reps on a sporting goods store gripper

explosion = destruction, always has an always will - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZtrhrzAIcU

[superfeemiman]

i dont often do negatives - a negative is just that, a negative, its not a gripper close, you need to train the positive >not that negatives dont work the hands, they will help your hold strength

you should always try an close the gripper as fast as possible - theres no go in slow! try opening an closing your hands as fast as possible under water or what i like to call 'rapid fire' gripper sets >my best time is 11 seconds for 50 reps on a sporting goods store gripper

explosion = destruction, always has an always will - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZtrhrzAIcU

viper makes a good point. You should be doing explosive closes no matter what.

I find that negatives help the most for grippers when I give it my all, like in a negative crush. Negative crushes feel like a long drawn out attempt, and they train the positive portion of close more than you might think.

[aquilonian]

That is the BEST way to train. FAST! I would rate fast closes as being superior to other types of training. THE tric is to USE A LIGHTER GRIPPER!. If you are bearly closing the #2, use the #1 for FAST closes, NOT the #1.5. The #1.5 wont allow you to get enough speed. An exampl. if you can get, say 20+ slow rythmical reps on the #1 then you might only get about 8-10 FAST closes. You cant always go fast, but heck you can even alternate, between say..... one day FAST with the #1, the next day slower with the #1.5 (still trying to go fast even though you are not).

A real negative is no joke. Its a destructive training method, and its meant to be like that. with a negative you can use up to 140% of your max. Thats serious resistance. but REAL negatives can't really be performed with a gripper. You need a GRIPMACHINE. Plus if do them right you can only do them about once per week.

My point is: If you want to add more resistance than what you can handle, and are willing to go trough that, why not perform isometrics instead? you will make better gains, and they can be done more often because if takes less time to heal. AND you can use comporable amounts of resistance (up to 120% of 1 rep concentric max). Just a thought.

[tusenkonstnar]

So then I'm not the only one that feels better gains in maximum strenght by doing fast closures with an easier gripper. *wondering why negatives is the only thing (almost) that it is spoken about*

What is isometric training?

[MaverickBU]

I'm no expert, but I can say that in my experience, frequent singles with the hardest gripper I can close is what has been adding strength the fastest. The problem, for me, with negatives is that they really tax my hands and I can't train grippers again for about a week after a good couple heavy negatives. I prefer to get the "skill" down with a tough, but doable gripper and once I am owning that one, add a single or two at my goal gripper in. Its been working consistently (not at a blazing pace, but with slow progress) and my hands feel much better. My 2 cents.

[twig]

Isometric exercises:

1) Try and dead a weight you know you could never dead

2) Try and curl a weight you know you could never curl

3) Try and bend a bar you know you could never bend

4) Try and close a gripper you know you could never close

And by try? I MEAN TRY! put EVERYTHING into it, EVERYTHING Make Yoda look like a quitter!

If I'm getting vague: Click Here.

N.B. if you follow this definition, and you hurt yourself, then you're an arse, and you deserve everything you get, so sue yourself for being thick.

Edited May 1, 2007 by twig

[Autolupus]

Do what Twig says, then try HEAVY isometrics!

[Alawadhi]

In other words push a wall

[Autolupus]

SUMO

[CoC#3]

I'd do both.

Dynamic gripper training is important. Explosive power is needed to crush a hard gripper, just like explosive power is needed to deadlift a big weight. The westside crew do a lot of speed work for the powerlifts why not do the same with the hands with gripper! I even do speed pinching and thick bar lifting, if i can explode off the floor with lighter weights i find it helps.

Negatives are THE WAY to build crushing power in the hands. I like doing them with an extended handle or doing bounce negatives with a gripper just above what i can close.

[Mikael]

frequent singles...

How long do you all rest between the singles?

[Bill Piche]

Why do one versus the other? Is there some rule? Use all different types of crush training out there. Negatives, strap holds, etc, and something no one else likely mentioned....technique work (proper hand placement, etc.).

I can close a trainer very fast, but I can tell you it won't do squat for closing a 3. Just a piece of data to keep in mind when talking about "fast" however you define the term.

[superfeemiman]

Why do one versus the other? Is there some rule? Use all different types of crush training out there. Negatives, strap holds, etc, and something no one else likely mentioned....technique work (proper hand placement, etc.).

I can close a trainer very fast, but I can tell you it won't do squat for closing a 3. Just a piece of data to keep in mind when talking about "fast" however you define the term.

Very true.

[Mikael]

I can close a trainer very fast, but I can tell you it won't do squat for closing a 3.

I don't think that's what tusenkonstnar meant. I think he meant that he grew stronger over a longer period when training that way. Not that it immediately became easier to close a gripper.

[tusenkonstnar]

I can close a trainer very fast, but I can tell you it won't do squat for closing a 3. Just a piece of data to keep in mind when talking about "fast" however you define the term.

That was not what I meant either.

Of course it must be heavy compared to what I can close, BUT when I was training to be able to close the No2 I got much better preogress when I stopped training Negatives on the No2 and/or RB180 and started to do FAST closures with hte number one. If I had used a trainer or a plastic store gruipper I would of course not have gained anything but endurance.

The reason that I brought the subject up was that I was qurious about other persons experience, most of what is written here is about negatives and thats the reason why I stuck to them for so long. I'm also qurious about if/when I shouold start doing them again.

[aquilonian]

Isometric exercises:

1) Try and dead a weight you know you could never dead

2) Try and curl a weight you know you could never curl

3) Try and bend a bar you know you could never bend

4) Try and close a gripper you know you could never close

And by try? I MEAN TRY! put EVERYTHING into it, EVERYTHING Make Yoda look like a quitter!

If I'm getting vague: Click Here.

N.B. if you follow this definition, and you hurt yourself, then you're an arse, and you deserve everything you get, so sue yourself for being thick.

Yup those are Isometrics. And yea the its a little vague. Two good points about isometrics

1. you get done alot faster than concentric training (overcoming resistance).

2. You get stronger faster with isometrics probably due to higher percentage of your 1 rep max you can use (about 120%) and the greater overload that is achieved

BUT there are 2 BAD things about isometrics. ands thats why serious lifters hardly ever do them.

1. They only get you stronger ON THE POSITION YOU PERFORM THEM IN. Thats why they are usually performed in the weak points of a lift. for example: if you were to apply them to the squat. you would due them in the BOTTOM position. and you would ONLY get stronger on the bottom position and thats it.

2. they dont build connective tissue (tendos ligaments). you need movements that include alot of MOMENTUM for that. Snatch, jerks, cleans, and different types of "shock plyos". I bet that some of you might have heard things like, "I never trained grip but I could close the #2 my first try. training? ........Oh I just do alot of olympic lifting". Some one yanking you with alot of momentum in an armwrestling match would also count. Anyway training exclusively with isometrics and.....with your muscles getiing stronger but your connective tissue staying the SAME, only one thing can happen, sonner or later POP! you tear the muscle clean off the joint so yes twig is right, Theres a good chance of hurting yourself. However....

The muscle of the hand are small and unless you train EXCLUSIVELY with isometrics for a long time without any other type of training stress for the hand, theres very little chance of you hurting yourself with them, with these muscles. If you lood at NEGATIVES WITH A GRIPPER what happens? THe gripper opens a little bit immediatley and then what? YOU ARE HOLDING IT ISOMETRCALLY (without movint) SLIGHTLY OPENED! do this and yes you will get stronger faster BUT ONLY IN THAT POSITION. This is why you see guys that can MMS a #3 but CANT TNS A #2.

NOTE: If you dont know how to turn "on" maximally when you squeeze you will not get DIDDLY from things like negatives or this types of training thats why twig says to TRY LIKE HELL. But turning "on" maximally is not something we are born with it has to be LEARNED. I would go as far as to call it a SKILL.

[superfeemiman]

This is why you see guys that can MMS a #3 but CANT TNS A #2.

I think that hand size and technique are a big factor in this too.

[aquilonian]

OK I realized that the last post was gonna leave you all with more questions than answers sorry. so I decided to make this one to the point

Wannagrip's advice is totally correct you dont just do one in fact I would only do isometrics sparingly if at all. Notice on my first post I said "If you WANT to add (in trianing) more resistance than what you can handle". Not "This is the ONLY way to train". I would stick to more conventional methods for the hand

WHen I said Isometric training for the hand (with grippers) I DID NOT MEAN "Closing a gripper you have no chance of closing". Quite the opposite. you use a gripper you KNOW you can close. The term used here is "OVERCRUSH", but theres a little more to it than that. notice a "negative" (with a gripper) just turns into an "isometric", with you getting stronger only with the gripper position slightly opened. Thats why I said " ....REAL negatives cant really be performed with a gripper". You need a grip machine, and even then you could say its only for the "hardcore/sadist".

The next question to come up might be "how to learn to turn "on" maximally". This is just an example, so please remember theres many ways that lead to the same destination. THis is just to get someone started. If I were to do these I would do it something like this....

WARMUP: I would soak with HOT water first since the hand has a lot of connective tissues and they DONT have a steady blood supply like muscles, hence making it hard for them to warm up on their own. THen I would warm up internally anything will do, firnger curls, pony clamp, light grippers whatever..

1. Now pick an easy gripper like a trainer (so when you let go the resistance of the gripper wont pull your finger joints too much) close it and "overcrush" it usning ONLY HALF of your strenght. do it for 5-10 seconds

2. rest a bit now close that gripper again and this time use THREE QUARTERS of your strenght on the overcrush. hold for 5-10 seconds

3. rest a bit and get ready as twig puts it "to make yoda look like a quiter". Close the gripper and overcrush it WITH ALL of your strenght. hold for 5 seconds. Stop youre done

Thats it. important points are: DO NOT forget to breathe, breathe forcefully in and out, or else you will turn red because the blood cant flow during isometrics, high blood pressure headaches, and very easyly wasted adrenaline, are just some of the risks. maybe even a couple busted capillaries and ground theet. When you are crushing so hard that the handles are "overlapping" each other to the sides you might want to use a harder gripper. just for the sake of your gripper.

frequency for the hands: This is really up to you. The real answer is "when they're ready". if you want to do these twice a day, please rest a minimum of 5-8 hours in between with at least 2 whole meals in between. you even do these after your regular hand workouts. sience they are not negatives it takes less time to heal, so you can do them faster.

Progression: as you get better over a couple month periond increase the time on your all-out set. 6,7,8,9,10 once you get to around ten and you are sure you are "ACTIVATING MAXIMALLY". Move on to more challenging training.

like this slowly you will learn how to activate maximally, then you are ready for true isometric training. you would to 2-3 max-reps of 6-10 seconds each. so you would max-overcrush for 6-10 seconds, stop and immediately max-overcrush again for 6-10 seconds. no rest between reps/overcrushes.

I dont see these as a substitube, just variance or addition to other more productive forms of training. good luck guys

[aquilonian]

This is why you see guys that can MMS a #3 but CANT TNS A #2.

I think that hand size and technique are a big factor in this too.

no question

[Alawadhi]

Is there someone that can MMS a #3 and can't TNS a #2?

[CoC#3]

Is there someone that can MMS a #3 and can't TNS a #2?

Not me. I am not very good at no set comparatively but i could still get 5 reps no set with a #2 filed both ends before i could MMS an average #3.

[David_wigren]

OK I realized that the last post was gonna leave you all with more questions than answers sorry. so I decided to make this one to the point

Wannagrip's advice is totally correct you dont just do one in fact I would only do isometrics sparingly if at all. Notice on my first post I said "If you WANT to add (in trianing) more resistance than what you can handle". Not "This is the ONLY way to train". I would stick to more conventional methods for the hand

WHen I said Isometric training for the hand (with grippers) I DID NOT MEAN "Closing a gripper you have no chance of closing". Quite the opposite. you use a gripper you KNOW you can close. The term used here is "OVERCRUSH", but theres a little more to it than that. notice a "negative" (with a gripper) just turns into an "isometric", with you getting stronger only with the gripper position slightly opened. Thats why I said " ....REAL negatives cant really be performed with a gripper". You need a grip machine, and even then you could say its only for the "hardcore/sadist".

The next question to come up might be "how to learn to turn "on" maximally". This is just an example, so please remember theres many ways that lead to the same destination. THis is just to get someone started. If I were to do these I would do it something like this....

WARMUP: I would soak with HOT water first since the hand has a lot of connective tissues and they DONT have a steady blood supply like muscles, hence making it hard for them to warm up on their own. THen I would warm up internally anything will do, firnger curls, pony clamp, light grippers whatever..

1. Now pick an easy gripper like a trainer (so when you let go the resistance of the gripper wont pull your finger joints too much) close it and "overcrush" it usning ONLY HALF of your strenght. do it for 5-10 seconds

2. rest a bit now close that gripper again and this time use THREE QUARTERS of your strenght on the overcrush. hold for 5-10 seconds

3. rest a bit and get ready as twig puts it "to make yoda look like a quiter". Close the gripper and overcrush it WITH ALL of your strenght. hold for 5 seconds. Stop youre done

Thats it. important points are: DO NOT forget to breathe, breathe forcefully in and out, or else you will turn red because the blood cant flow during isometrics, high blood pressure headaches, and very easyly wasted adrenaline, are just some of the risks. maybe even a couple busted capillaries and ground theet. When you are crushing so hard that the handles are "overlapping" each other to the sides you might want to use a harder gripper. just for the sake of your gripper.

frequency for the hands: This is really up to you. The real answer is "when they're ready". if you want to do these twice a day, please rest a minimum of 5-8 hours in between with at least 2 whole meals in between. you even do these after your regular hand workouts. sience they are not negatives it takes less time to heal, so you can do them faster.

Progression: as you get better over a couple month periond increase the time on your all-out set. 6,7,8,9,10 once you get to around ten and you are sure you are "ACTIVATING MAXIMALLY". Move on to more challenging training.

like this slowly you will learn how to activate maximally, then you are ready for true isometric training. you would to 2-3 max-reps of 6-10 seconds each. so you would max-overcrush for 6-10 seconds, stop and immediately max-overcrush again for 6-10 seconds. no rest between reps/overcrushes.

I dont see these as a substitube, just variance or addition to other more productive forms of training. good luck guys

Good stuff!!!