Supermatches And Competitions

[Nick McKinless]

A Supermatch is a competition between two (or more) people. This is no different to a regular competition except that 2 (or more) people are involved. In sports ranging from boxing to tennis to darts, man on man competition is popular and well recognized. Supermatches highlight two people of even talents and stack them against each other in 5 or 6 events chosen by the competitors themselves. It is an exciting and challenging concept and makes for great viewing and fantastic competition. As long as calibrated plates are used all World Records made in these or other competitions will be counted towards future records.

Nick

[Jedd Johnson]

As long as the contest is announced well ahead of time, the equipment is calibrated (weight by weight meticulously), records are kept accurately, there is a knowledgeable referee, and that there is video footage in the one on one encounter, I think it should count.

The athletes will be preparing the same as they would in a large group contest, and may in fact be even more geared up to perform.

[twig]

What he said.

[joeyg]

my only concern is since there is no prize money, sponsorships, etc, etc, what is to stop someone from setting up a "supermatch" just to get WR in their pet lift?

A full-on competition SHOULD be enough motivation for someone to give their absolute all in each event, rather than choosing a pet lift to try and attain a WR.

Hell, if i know I can hit X on Y lift without buring myself out on other events, then what's to stop me from setting up a supermatch so i can gain a WR?

[Scott Styles]

No, it's an exhibition with non-standardized events and event order. There's also no real contest placing to take into consideration. For a world record, I don't think that should count. Honestly, with this stuff, Mikael is usually right. Look at what happened with the difference between the FBBC and LGC v-bars.

I do think the lifts should count for regional records such as the ones on the US Hand Strength site or the British records David is keeping.

[Darco]

The biggest bench presses are set in bench only meets not full power meets. I think supermatches are a great idea.

[David Horne]

Good to hear everyone's opinions. So please vote, THAT is the democratic way.

Our sport is not one man, it is everyone.

David

And most of the biggest bends are done outside of competition!

[Mike Betty]

Personally I think that world records should be big numbers that all one day hope to equal or get as close to sa posible if that means they only do a single lift i'm fine with that if it part of a supermatch i'm fine with that if it done at the world' oe euro's then i'm fine with that if it done in front of two world class lifter with video reference play back on a Saturdfay afternoon then personally that ok two.

I know i'm new to grip put i have compeated in the 105kg strongman for a number of year and have made it to the national level contest several times. and i would like to say the the whole grip world you are making very hard for yourself to grow into anything more than a small group of lifting doing something they love. Nothing wrong with that but you will not get public respect for you sport or money invested. That is a shame because i know how much blood and sweat goes into your training.

[Martin_Arildsson]

Looks like I am one of the few that has problems seeing the supermatch as a "real" contest.

(But I do like the concept of supermatches.)

[The Mac]

It seems to me that some are taking this more as a slight against David/Nick's judging abilities rather than what it is, which is a matter of classifying what is/is not acceptable as as a fully fledged "contest".

[mobsterone]

my only concern is since there is no prize money, sponsorships, etc, etc, what is to stop someone from setting up a "supermatch" just to get WR in their pet lift?

A full-on competition SHOULD be enough motivation for someone to give their absolute all in each event, rather than choosing a pet lift to try and attain a WR.

Hell, if i know I can hit X on Y lift without buring myself out on other events, then what's to stop me from setting up a supermatch so i can gain a WR?

Hi Joey, as has been stated on the other thread two issues counter your view. One is that anyone at any event can do an opener only. Indeed I suggested just such an idea for an entree in the upcoming

British who has an injured wrist for their TTWC effort. The other aspect which negates the 'anyone setting up a supermatch' was the way we did it. We had one of the most recognised grip guys in the world as ref. We had champions, w/record holders and other 'names' as witnesses and finally we adhrered to a stricter set of conditions than that which was allowed at the Australian contest (to name one). These included but are not limited to the two minute between attempts, rising bar only, head on and side video and so on.

Looks like I am one of the few that has problems seeing the supermatch as a "real" contest.

(But I do like the concept of supermatches.)

If you are willing to come over later in the year I'd like to go head to head (October / November??). Or perhaps a Swedish Supermatch could be set up?

Edited February 27, 2007 by mobsterone

[Martin_Arildsson]

Looks like I am one of the few that has problems seeing the supermatch as a "real" contest.

(But I do like the concept of supermatches.)

If you are willing to come over later in the year I'd like to go head to head (October / November??). Or perhaps a Swedish Supermatch could be set up?

Maybe, I want to get strong first!

[Matt Brouse]

I think it should have a minumum number of events. So like when Ben Edwards and I go head to head there would be like 8 events...or something.

[Scott Styles]

I don't really think popularity is a good substitute for minimizing the number of variables when trying to make comparisons at a world record level. Don't you guys think a non-standard event order can have just as much impact on total weight as using non-calibrated plates could?

[bencrush]

I voted YES. I consider the Supermatches to be a real competition. I am all for breaking records. I don't care if someone takes token lifts all through the contest just to hit a huge vbar pull or (in the case of the Michigan Grip Champs 5 in August) takes very light attempts on everything and saves the best for bending.

If the judging is legitimate, the weights are calibrated, and a record is broken, then by all means that record stands!

The records are secure enough in my opinion even to allow casual grip gatherings to have a shot at them. If they meet the above criteria. Even if they didn't have a "qualified" judge, if they got the lift on video, surely David Horne or Nick McKinless or any of our other very qualified grip guys could judge it. I am aware most won't be in favor of this idea. Oh well. Seems that some are almost worried that their records are delicate and can be knocked down with the slightest blowing wind. That's what competition is about. Improvement and always raising the bar higher and higher.

Another way to look at it is that in competition settings your adrenaline is up so high compared to the normal screwing-around-in-your-basement lifting. I figure if someone can erase (for example) the vbar record in their basement with 3 friends watching, with calibrated plates, a member in good standing, no monkey business, height markers front and back, then why not accept that lift onto the record list? It's mainly a rhetorical question. I don't want the flaming that the answers will surely involve. But it should stand to reason that the same guy who is capable of breaking the record while lifting in his basement if probably more than capable of doing the same thing in competition. And almost everyone I know who has competed does not suffer from the mythical "contest jitters." Quite the opposite usually. They almost always do better in comps and pull more weight than they ever have in training.

Look at it another way just for a bit. If people were allowed to break official records and/or just getting on Records Lists here on the GB just by submitting proof of calibrated plates and using standardized equipment, think of the possibility of increased traffic here on the board and more importantly, the increased visibility of grip training and bending on YouTube, MySpace, etc.

We could put out "open challenges" for everyone who has a pair (lol) to try and beat our grip records. Blast that challenge out to every MySpace group, Squidoo lens and group, YouTube...it would definitely increase the participation aspect and the records would increase because of all the new interest. Or it could be a pipe dream.

[RKlein]

Nick i think this was a good topic to post.

I agree with Scott S. posts.

it is easier with two people instead of 10-20. i would rather go two minutes then 15-20 min. between attempts. who waits 15-20 minutes between attempts in training? raising bar, so what if you aren't pushing the person it doesn't matter.

Mac: what are you talkin about? give me a break

Dave Thornton and i have about 2-3 grip togethers a year. i guess these will now be competitions. and yes we have the euro equipment.

[mobsterone]

Looks like I am one of the few that has problems seeing the supermatch as a "real" contest.

(But I do like the concept of supermatches.)

If you are willing to come over later in the year I'd like to go head to head (October / November??). Or perhaps a Swedish Supermatch could be set up?

Maybe, I want to get strong first!

My aching back today says - yes let's wait a few months ha ha.

Re another point for judgement etc: Mashmonster grippers and the certs there have 'judges' checking videos and an adherence (at least at the top level / harder grippers) to strict conditions without a contest framework. Such ideas can be made to work. It's noteworthy that many, many people ehere are agreeing again and again on the issue of calibration. Can I ask you to consider the point I made here in such ruminations: http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtop...mp;#entry285062

Edited February 27, 2007 by mobsterone

[bencrush]

I think it should have a minumum number of events. So like when Ben Edwards and I go head to head there would be like 8 events...or something.

Hahaha! Child's play Matt. You know I'm a true volume slut. There would have to be at least 20 events and 3 different styles of bending just to pique my interest in a Supermatch...interested? Be careful though. This might be the kind of contest where you'd have to catheterize yourself and be on an IV drip just to have enough energy to make it through the day.

[Mikael Siversson]

I voted YES. I consider the Supermatches to be a real competition. I am all for breaking records. I don't care if someone takes token lifts all through the contest just to hit a huge vbar pull or (in the case of the Michigan Grip Champs 5 in August) takes very light attempts on everything and saves the best for bending.

If the judging is legitimate, the weights are calibrated, and a record is broken, then by all means that record stands!

The records are secure enough in my opinion even to allow casual grip gatherings to have a shot at them. If they meet the above criteria. Even if they didn't have a "qualified" judge, if they got the lift on video, surely David Horne or Nick McKinless or any of our other very qualified grip guys could judge it. I am aware most won't be in favor of this idea. Oh well. Seems that some are almost worried that their records are delicate and can be knocked down with the slightest blowing wind. That's what competition is about. Improvement and always raising the bar higher and higher.

Another way to look at it is that in competition settings your adrenaline is up so high compared to the normal screwing-around-in-your-basement lifting. I figure if someone can erase (for example) the vbar record in their basement with 3 friends watching, with calibrated plates, a member in good standing, no monkey business, height markers front and back, then why not accept that lift onto the record list? It's mainly a rhetorical question. I don't want the flaming that the answers will surely involve. But it should stand to reason that the same guy who is capable of breaking the record while lifting in his basement if probably more than capable of doing the same thing in competition. And almost everyone I know who has competed does not suffer from the mythical "contest jitters." Quite the opposite usually. They almost always do better in comps and pull more weight than they ever have in training.

I can mention several top vbar lifters that have lifted more in training than in competition, for example David Horne, Nick McKinless, Johan Albrektsson, Jim Wylie and Ryan Klein.

Look at it another way just for a bit. If people were allowed to break official records and/or just getting on Records Lists here on the GB just by submitting proof of calibrated plates and using standardized equipment, think of the possibility of increased traffic here on the board and more importantly, the increased visibility of grip training and bending on YouTube, MySpace, etc.

We could put out "open challenges" for everyone who has a pair (lol) to try and beat our grip records. Blast that challenge out to every MySpace group, Squidoo lens and group, YouTube...it would definitely increase the participation aspect and the records would increase because of all the new interest. Or it could be a pipe dream.

[mobsterone]

Nick i think this was a good topic to post.

I agree with Scott S. posts.

it is easier with two people instead of 10-20. i would rather go two minutes then 15-20 min. between attempts. who waits 15-20 minutes between attempts in training? raising bar, so what if you aren't pushing the person it doesn't matter.

Mac: what are you talkin about? give me a break

Dave Thornton and i have about 2-3 grip togethers a year. i guess these will now be competitions. and yes we have the euro equipment.

Most contest are a lot less than 15-20. Many are on the order of 8-12 and yes pushing each other does matter or their would be no competitions including those you have with Dave. Else you'd just lift and then go meet Dave for a beer and a chat. The time scale involved in 'pushing' is more of an issue than the 'push' itself. When you go for a gym PB you'd take your sweet time or go at a pace to suit you. Contests don't allow that. I can make gripper sessions last an hour and still only do a total of 40 reps including warm ups. Ditto 2HP can take 60-75 minutes. On Saturday we had 4 attempts each and allowing for 2 minutes between lifts if a lifter went straight away the max time scale, with a little varition, was 16-20 minutes start to finish. At the Euro 2004 with 12 lifters it was 4.5 hours plus (we had the issue of constant changes to the width). More weight was lifted by me on Saturday in 20 minutes than I did 3 years ago in 4.5 hours and yet it was less than I take time to train.

You could have a 'contest' between you and Dave if you have referees, video and calibrated plates. Otherwise it's a workout and we all have those - no questions asked eh?

[Mikael Siversson]

You can all vote until you drop. Hell will freeze over before I change my mind on this. None of this two-some gayness in my lists thank you very much.

[joeyg]

You could have a 'contest' between you and Dave if you have referees, video and calibrated plates. Otherwise it's a workout and we all have those - no questions asked eh?

well, does that mean that your Supermatch was not official since the plates were not calibrated?

[mobsterone]

Mikeal I too have lifted more on the V-bar, 2HP, one hand deadlift etc etc in training. Even more so on non-standard equipment. That goes without saying. There's a clip in your gallery of you tripling 150-kilos with one hand.

Yet I have also lifted more in competitions than I had in training. This weekends event I lifted more in training on the V-bar yet at the CoC I lifted more on the platform. Swings and roundabouts. I do tend to better on the stage than the gym generally speaking and Chris James is a fine example of a lifter who does extremely well out of competition but less so in (strongman in his case). Different strokes for differnt folk I guess.

[Scott Styles]

I guess another reason for my objection is allowing supermatches to count for world records increases the subjectivity of what can be allowed for a record. Creation of gray areas like this can lead to situations like what occurred regarding Gazza's 3/8" round stainless bend. With a strict set of criteria, there are no questions, no concerns over favoritism, and no debates over counting a lift with implied judgment upon the integrity of contest promoters or contestants.

Keep the rules simple and apply them strictly. It eliminates BS.

To be clear, I think the super matches are an excellent idea and provide a great exhibition opportunity for grip. Maybe they could count for the single lift world records if all criteria are met? I don't see how that would result in numbers higher than a single lift pinch contest or bending contest, and it would provide opportunity for the exhibition to break world records. Mikael, do you think that would still be skewed?

[mobsterone]

You can all vote until you drop. Hell will freeze over before I change my mind on this. None of this two-some gayness in my lists thank you very much.

That's another time in 24 hours you've allowed yourself to become insulting. Let's have no more comments like 'gayness'. It can sometimes feel like an attack - it isn't.

Obviously you don't actually own a list as such ands it would be the matter of a few seconds work to copy what you've done and start posting there. Imagine how stupid it would become if you updated a list and then immediately below someone else posted the alternate list. I think people DO appreciate the work you put in there and would prefer that you can at least try and see the views of the same people that you yourself are listing. Without their efforts in lifting the list would be empty in much the same way that without your effort we'd have to find someone else to do them. There are of course two other lists that people refer to right now - David Horne's and Bob's.

You could have a 'contest' between you and Dave if you have referees, video and calibrated plates. Otherwise it's a workout and we all have those - no questions asked eh?

well, does that mean that your Supermatch was not official since the plates were not calibrated?

Apparently not. Everyone agrees on that point - weights must be calibrated - but see my point re calibration first. The issue of calibration reflects one that has come from various lifting feds over time and can easily be checked in historical weightlifting books and websites. You can use, as they do at the LGC, a calibrated one time only set of weights. This is the situation we have now. Or your can use a brand spanking new set of calibrated weights like they do at the Olympics. Or you can do what many events do which is weigh the weights after as, as per my comments elsewhere, we know only too well that weights get chipped and so on over time and so the numbers will change.

On the topic of weight calibration I have argued with Mikeal on this subject before. The standard now required differs from what was required for calibration and not all those weights at various grip events have adhered to the same standard.