Are We Killing Our Hands?

[JasonL]

I don't think training will kill your hands. If done right training with benefit everything. Nutirition plays more roll in Arthritsis. Here are some tips:

Don't overtrain

Don't max out often on anything

Cycle work loads more than anything. Load is more important to cycle then changing exercises.

Take MSM power and Cod Liver Oil.

Take Yoga, one needs to get more mobile and flexable. Which these are 2 different things.

Long distance cardio will only damage the body. Do short sprint type exercises.

Focus on great form more than load on the exercises your doing.

The 3 main powerlifts will beat down the body more than anything if one does not do what I said already. If one does not compete, learn to change and cycle the workouts. 3 weeks barebell work, 3 weeks band work, 3 weeks kettlebell work, etc...

If anything else comes to my head I will let you know..

[aquilonian]

EVERYONE (if get to be old) gets arthritis, some worse than others, but everyone does.

[carusom1]

i want strong hands that get crappy at old age instead of girly nancy hands thats healthy when im old =)))

word

I think I've seen this quote on Matt Brouse profile

"I will not tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death"

[CoC#3]

Speaking of moderate grip training I actually used to train grip very moderately, using medium-high reps and never got anywhere worth noting, and any gains i had were very slow. That being said, i know i would have closed a #3 eventually like this. But, instead i decided to go with the option of high volume intense negs (using a #4, these days i use a pro) and got it done in a couple of months. This method of training is also getting me closer to the #4, something which i know for a fact (as stated above) would be impossible with only low-medium intensity grip training.

[Dumleman]

The Swedish “rheumatic association” encourage people to have a strong grip. There are infinity numbers of ways to destroy your hands and train hard is only one of them and it is a very health way to destroy your hands compared to the other ways . But I don’t train super hard, at the moment I like to be a bit above average strong and totally injury free.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Dumleman

[Kurt Lane]

If it was up to doctors we would never do or eat anything we enjoy.

This is a good point. My wife had back surgery and the doctor actually told her, "If it were up to me, I would tell you to never lift anything off the ground again no matter how heavy; not even a bag of groceries or your kid."

Heh I was told same thing because of my broken disk, about to hit 400 again at around 170 after not even training deadlifts hard.

[Crotchulla]

If it was up to doctors we would never do or eat anything we enjoy.

This is a good point. My wife had back surgery and the doctor actually told her, "If it were up to me, I would tell you to never lift anything off the ground again no matter how heavy; not even a bag of groceries or your kid."

Heh I was told same thing because of my broken disk, about to hit 400 again at around 170 after not even training deadlifts hard.

Well if you have will power and some smarts you can pretty much go against anything a doctor says. My cyropractor told me to not do military presses and scale back my deadlifting. Since then I've added loads of military presses and PRd in deadlifting like 3 times. I feel fine. Just started grappling again and my flexibility in my shoulder is back and everything is peachy.

[royceman]

I just pulled a tendon in my forearm AGAIN, but it was from doing something stupid.

So I have this theory train smart and train hard. Work up to and adapt to volume then push your limits with sufficient time to recover.

And beyond that like the song says " Better to burn out than fade away."

We are all going to die, everybody here will have injuries, organs that stop, minds that turn against us, spines that deteriorate and so forth.

We might as well make something of ourselves while we can!

[sixlitre]

A dear friend of mine used to say to me "Dave, I'm here for a good time, not a long time". I followed those words of advice for many years, well up until my lawyers told me that I was out of money and I had to sit. Just kidding, I always keep one on retainer. But anyways, I think the grip training definately helps keep the joints in the hand mobile and lubricated. I can feel my hands stiffen up within a week or two of not training. Guess I'm hooked for life, regardless of the consequences.

[Rick Walker]

Living life like I have for the past 17 years (yes, I started lifting at age 12) has certainly added up to a ton of injuries, aches, and most likely permanent problems (such as my hips, pec, elbows, and ankles). However, I wouldn't change a thing about those 17 years, and if I could go back in time to age 12, I would do it all again. I not only learned a ton and got strong, I also got to meet so many awesome people along the way!

I haven't lifted a weight in 6 weeks and I have to say I feel better right now then I have in years and years. I am down about 12 pounds, even though my alcohol consumption has not decreased . My joints are feeling better, it doesnt hurt to walk or stand up after sitting down.

I will say this: those of you who are slinging heavy weight and piling on injuries, like I was, will eventually not have to worry about feeling age 50 when you are 50. You will feel more like 70...

My 2 cents.

[heatwave13]

I totally agree with what Rick is saying here. I'm also in the midst of an "off" period and have not lifted really heavy in the past little while. I plan to resume heavier work once the new year starts, but, for the next few weeks, I'm taking it easy to let myself recover a little bit. Just a few sets of overhead squats and some moderate grip work is all I'm doing until the new year. Like Rick, I've been lifting heavy in some form or fashion since I was 15 years old (I'm 34 now) and after years of heavy squats, olympic lifting training, and beat up rotator cuffs, I've decided to add in an "easy" month each year where I lift lighter, eat cleaner, and even fast a few times. But, during the summer, when I'm off of work, I have more time and will train much heavier.

I think one of the major keys to avoiding injury (or killing our hands), especially for us men in our 30's and older, is to not try to do too much too soon. We're a little older, we may not recover as quickly as we did when we were 21, and with our experience in the iron game, we don't need to go super heavy as frequently as we used to. As Dan John would say, not every workout has to be a record-breaker.

So, yeah, I'm all for hard training, but with the attitude that I'm in it for the long haul, the long term. Steady, hard (not necessarily all-out every time) training, and some patience will work for most of us and will help us to avoid many injuries and frustration from time lost in healing. With my hectic schedule, kids, wife, job, and other hobbies, I've found that I can train fairly hard and still make progress on just a few key lifts with out over-exerting myself. Deadlifts, overhead presses, a few overhead squats, and grip work seem to work well for me. Training heavy, but keeping the overall volume at a relatively low level appears to be helping me to aviod injury.

I totally believe that mixing up periods of hard training with some "down time" will allow most of us to reach our grip/strength goals without burning out and hurting ourselves.

[PowerHouse]

If I thought lifting or doing grip training was going to hurt me in the long run I wouldn't do it. When im 60 years old I dont want injuries plaguing me I dont believe in "no pain no gain" "go big or go home" macho crap. Im all for giving it 100% but not at the cost of wrecking myself. You only have one body treat it accordingly.

[John Beatty]

I started heavy training in 7th grade. By 8th I had deadlifted 350lbs, full Oly style squatted 300, benched 200 for 5. I've trained heavy for most of my life, will be 40 in January & still train heavy. I've competed in PL, Strongman & now Grip, Have done fairly well in all. I plan to try Odd Lifts & Highland games over the next few years, too. Nothing against Doctors, but most of them are going by outdated info, especially related to strength training. Most have the "you'll wear it out" vs the "it'll be stronger & last longer" mindset. Similar to the old "you'll get musclebound" thinking. The main thing is to listen to your body. If you have pain, try something else, or rest until you can do that thing without pain. I'll train until I die. My biggest fear is not being able to do things for myself when I get old. I always want to have challenges & I always have loved the cameraderie I've found in strength sports. If I wear something out, so be it. Who wants to be a perfectly preserved corpse.

Plus, on the lighter side, with any luck by the time I really start wearing out, they'll just clone me up a new piece & hook it on.

[superfeemiman]

I'll bring out an old joke: "I once knew a guy who walked into the gym. Bam! He died 20 years later."

See my point? Everyone dies someday. There's no need to to think about all the bad effects that could POTENTIALLY happen in a hobby that not only increases our fitness but also our strength in everyday lives. Believe me, there are much more destructive hobbies than gripping.

Edited November 28, 2006 by superfeemiman

[climber511]

Plus, on the lighter side, with any luck by the time I really start wearing out, they'll just clone me up a new piece & hook it on.

I hope they hurry

[Hubgeezer]

My life excercise history:

Very active to age 20, running and weights, and being a kid

Mildly active 20-30, some jogging, light weights

Age 30-44 NOTHING

44-49 grip only

49-52 weights, grip, jogging, dieting

The most sore I was, and the most problems, was doing grip only, age 44-49. My hands were assaulted, sore all the time. Except for a bad elbow, done decades ago (prevents me from bending, cleans, curls) I have no soreness anywhere, which was not the case from 20-49. I like to complain about my back, but that is carryover from prior to my buying a Reverse Hyper Machine at age 49, and a great excuse for not being able to deadlift much.

No, I do not think most of us are killing our hands. If you do dumb things, you will. Most of the people here do not do dumb things. I would stop grip if I thought I was hurting myself. I do not share the philosophy that others have about hell with the future. I am sincerely stating that I don't see danger for working grip. And I presume that you know there are multiple studies showing the correlation between a strong grip and longevity. They don't know why, but I think it is having the ability to pull yourself up and walk and get around, not simply to lay down and die because your hands can't help you get up off the floor.

Hubgeezer

[superfeemiman]

I agree with Hubgeezer. It may have sounded like I was saying that the future didn't matter, but I really meant is that there is no reason to waste your time thinking about a risk that isn't even close to proven, along with the fact that there's evidence that the effect is the opposite in the way that it will make you healthier. If you worry about non-proven things like that you probably will miss out on a lot of good things in life.

Of course, related to the grip world- there is barely any reason to even think it's bad on you're hands as there is no evidence that it has lead to that and actual evidence on the contrary.

[vitz]

my opinion as a guy that like strengh sports and a phisical therapist and trainner( i am going to coment on all posts, hope that it is ok).

the life expectacy of a caveman or a knight was short because you could face dinossaurs and poor health care in both cases(black plague for example).

people get arthritis because they lost some articular restriction or for over using the joint, some labor workers do repetitive tasks and can't rest, also most don't do progressive training or periodization like we do(or should do).

any articular problem can be solved by moving the joint to get the original phisiologic articular movent, good nutrition and using ways to improve production of hialuronic acid.

most doctors don't have a clue of how to train or an athlete is trained, here in my country there are a lot of people that prescribe programs and have no clue about what they are doing.

if you say to a doctor that you are planing to close a coc4, bend a red nail or deadlift 500kg he will say that you are nuts and that you can get maimed for life or even wonder if you are a mental patient, but he never asks how long you plan to train to be able to do it. if you say that it is a 10 year goal it is plenty of time to make your joints, nervous system, whole organism to adapt to the intensity of that feats.

i am not strong as most guys here but i have been around great men and women of all sports(powerlifting, weightlifting, wsm, armwrestling and a few that are interested on grip strenght) and all journals that i found on medline and pubmed say the same.

it must be a progressive overload and there is diferent ways to train for each body part, muscle, bone, tendon, ligaments and nervous system.

i hope that it helps and it wasn't very boring to read it. that is how i fell about it

[Hubgeezer]

This holiday, I had an interesting conversation with my sister, a 4th year med. student, but by no means a specialist in hand health. It started when I showed her the back of my left hand... In her opinion, in the case of specialized hand training, very strong does not necessarily equal very healthy...

In a nutshell, her point was that it might be great to strengthen your hands and meet your goals, but understand that you're not doing much more than accelerating the aging of your hands. She thinks I can expect to have problems with arthritis if I keep up grip training...

The Journals of Gerontology Series A: Biolgical Sciences and Medical Scienes 55:M168-M173(2000)

Direct quote, in its entirety, last words of article:

Conclusions. In healthy middle-aged men, long-term mortality risk was associated with grip strength at baseline, independent of BMI. The possible interpretation of the finding is that early life influences on muscle strength may have long-term implications for mortality. Additionally, higher strength itself may provide greater physiologic and functional reserve that protects against mortality.

End quote

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Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports, Volume 13 page 3 - February 2003 Quote:

Those men who were in the lowest third of the distribution of grip strength at baseline were at two to three times greater risk of developing disabilities assessed 25 years later compared to the highest third. It is possible that before they reach the disability level, those with greater reserve of strength may afford to lose more strength, for example following bed rest and inactivity associated with an illness. Midlife grip strength was also found to predict long-term total mortality: those with poorer strength at baseline were more likely to die over the follow-up period of 30 years.

End quote

************************************************************************************

Trust me, I could go on. There are studies, lots of them, showing correlation between weak grip and short lives. I don't see any showing the opposite, nor have I heard of any. I have a client who is an orthopedist, and his specialty is "the hands". If he had his preference, he would work hands 24/7. He may be one of the best hand specialists in the country, but he is trapped in a general practice taking care of the practice's workers' comp cases involving shoulders to fingers. He likes hands because of the intricacies and complexities of them. He would love to work on grip guys, to learn, but except for me, has never met one. He has no opinion on this "sport", as he would not form an opinion on speculation. He loves hearing about 200 pound dyno numbers, as the only guys who have ever "pegged" his Jamar (ends at 200) are blue collar guys. Most experts keep their opinions to themselves. It is us goobers who so willingly toss out our thoughts as if we were experts.

So, my opinion, again, is we are not killing our hands. My evidence is being age 52 and the experience of my own hands.

Hubgeezer

Edited November 28, 2006 by Hubgeezer

[climber511]

I posted this once a long time back - it just seemed like a good time to do it again.

GRANDPA'S HANDS

Grandpa, some ninety plus years, sat feebly on the patio bench. He

didn't move, just sat with his head down staring at his hands. When I sat

down beside him he didn't acknowledge my presence and the longer I sat I

wondered if he was OK.

Finally, not really wanting to disturb him but wanting to check on him

at the same time, I asked him if he was OK. He raised his head and

looked at me and smiled. Yes, I'm fine, thank you for asking," he said in

a clear strong voice. "I didn't mean to disturb you, grandpa, but you were

just sitting here staring at your hands and I wanted to make sure you were OK,

I explained to him. "Have you ever looked at your hands," he asked. "I mean

really looked at your hands?"

I slowly opened my hands and stared down at them. I turned them over,

palms up and then palms down. No, I guess I had never really looked

at my hands as I tried to figure out the point he was making.

Grandpa smiled and related this story: "Stop and think for a moment

about the hands you have, how they have served you well throughout your years.

These hands, though wrinkled, shriveled and weak have been the tools I have used

all my life to reach out and grab and embrace life. They braced and caught my

fall when as a toddler I crashed upon the floor. They put food in my mouth and

clothes on my back. As a child my mother taught me to fold them in prayer. They

tied my shoes and pulled on my boots. They dried the tears of my children and

caressed the love of my life. They held my rifle and wiped my tears when I went

off to war. They have been dirty, scraped and raw, swollen and bent. They were

uneasy and clumsy when I tried to hold my newborn son. Decorated with my wedding

band they showed the world that I was married and loved someone special. They

wrote the letters home and trembled and shook when I buried my parents and spouse

and walked my daughter down the aisle.

Yet, they were strong and sure when I dug my buddy out of a foxhole and

lifted a plow off of my best friends foot. They have held children,

consoled neighbors, and shook in fists of anger when I didn't understand.

They have covered my face, combed my hair, and washed and cleansed the

rest of my body. They have been sticky and wet, bent and broken, dried

and raw. And to this day when not much of anything else of me works

real well these hands hold me up, lay me down, and again continue to fold in

prayer. These hands are the mark of where I've been and the ruggedness of my life.

But more importantly it will be these hands that God will reach out and

take when he leads me home. And with my hands He will lift me to His

side and there I will use these hands to touch the face of Christ."

I will never look at my hands the same again. But I remember God

reached out and took my grandpa's hands and led him home. When my hands are

hurt or sore or when I stroke the face of my children and wife I think

of grandpa. I know he has been stroked and caressed and held by the hands of God.

I, too, want to touch the face of God and feel his hands upon my face.

[vitz]

that is a very good text, there are many studies that corelate grip/forearm strenght with indepedence and life span

[don chi]

Climber, that is absolutely one of the best things I have read in a long time. Thanks for that man!

[GetAGrip87]

That is a great post Chris!

[lifesnotfair]

Great text indeed.

[Rick Walker]

If you train smart you can continue to lift weights until you are old. No problems, and you will be all the better for it. However, if you train to lift big weights, at or over your max, and you do it on a regular basis, time after time, year after year, you are going to eventually reach a point where the pain out weighs the gain. I was at that point.

I got tired of walking around with hips that ache 24-7. When I sit for more then 30 seconds, then stand up, it takes me a long time to get fully upright. I think Climber witnessed this when I visited him. My sciatica is so bad that it makes car rides over an hour hell. A couple months ago I was standing during half our meal at a restaurant because the booth was killing my back, all the way down my left leg. The stress fracture in my right foot has been a constant source of pain since back in June, and when I get to work I limp across the parking lot until it starts to feel half way decent enough that I can walk normal. My patellar tendonitis gets so bad at times that I limp when I walk and wince when I go down steps. Ever since 2003 when I bent that cut blue nail at BFGS, my right arm has been so bad that up until this past July-August I couldnt do a barbell or EZ bar curl. It was finally geting better until a botched power clean attempt injured it again.

I would take a month off and feel good, and 2 weeks back into it I would be a mess again. I would train light for a month and feel great, then 2 weeks of heavy weight again and I would be right back to where I was. It is just something I grew tired of. If I am this beat up now, with things that have been around for months and years, where will I be when I am 40? 50? 60? Wannagrip often cautions those who use bowed back deadlift form to be careful, cause it will catch up to you in the long run. He knows what he is talking about.

Like John Beatty, who, by the way, is a Iron Man to be doing that stuff for that long! I think you have to listen to your body. My body was speaking loud and clear. Something would break, I would shake it off and keep going. Then something else would go, same path. I kept doing that until I finally realized that my body was telling me something. 17 years is ENOUGH. I reached my goals, I squatted 700 in a pair of briefs, I deadlifted 700, I competed in powerlifting and strongman. I hosted and competed in grip contests. I did what I wanted to do.

The main reason I sold my gym is this: I am not the kind of guy who can just go out to the garage and lift light weights. I could never allow myself to take it easy, I start out that way and 4 weeks later I am pulling 700. That is just the way I am. The easiest way to stop that was to sell everything. I had to get away from it. I am now doing cardio and when my pec feels completely better, I will start doing bodyweight stuff. That is plenty for me.

As far as grip goes, I think it is a lot different from the body. I havent trained grip in forever and a day and my hands are still plenty strong. I can close a #3 with a Mash Monster legal set, I lifted Climber's 50 Blob with both left and right hands, I got his old school, Richard Sorin style, blob 4-6" off the ground many times, and I took 135 (i believe) for a ride with his FBB Bomb set up the first time I tried it. That is hand strength I have retained for over a year, and will continue to retain through bodyweight stuff. I have some funky things planned for my garage, some climbing boards etc. once the weights are cleaned out.

When I was at my parent's house over Thanksgiving I read a story in the paper about a 24 year old swimmer and mutli gold medal winner. He retired, said he wanted to discover life outside the pool. That is how I feel, I want to discover life outside the weight room.

This is one of the best topics on the Grip Board in months, maybe years. Thanks-