OldGuy Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 What's the story with PDA dropping SOS grippers. Has a statement been issued ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Szimanski Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 Gentlemen, We have explained dropping the grippers to those who have recently requested them. Mostly they have been satisfied repeat customers. Additionally, we had been hinting all along that grippers were more time consuming than was justifiable and published that on our website. Here's an excerpt to one recent inquiry: "Just FYI re the grippers, we sent this in response a few days after pulling the grippers: "We looked at our financials a week ago and found we are 30% ahead of last year. We also found the only dog in the stable was the grippers - too much time, too little ticket, too much bottlenecking. We dropped them cold turkey, won't even waste time talking about them, which was the major problem. We have turned down orders for three dozen since pulling the pages five days ago." And we are still turning down requests today, mostly from previous gripper customers. The grippers and calibration sold very well from start to finish and more than paid for the investment. The problem was a few guys would call to yak for twenty minutes, then order (or not), then email numerous times asking more questions. If they sent in grippers to be calibrated, they followed up by email: 'Are they there yet?' 'What are the results?' 'What do the numbers mean?' 'How do they compare to all grippers ever tested?' 'Are they on the way back yet?' We fully appreciate and understand enthusiasm, but this was unjustifiably much. Meanwhile, we would have $10,000 worth of bars in the queue being delayed answering the same gripper questions over and over and over when all the information was already published on our site. But, there was no way to control the abused time. We finally learned our lesson and realized we owed it to the majority of our customers to eliminate the grippers. If we get into grippers again we will charge by the minute! Ironically, just before yanking them we 'accidentally' realized we had overlooked a simple way, and already had the capacity, to test grippers to definitively select ones that were more difficult than another existing gripper or in between two existing grippers without using the calibration process. We have been doing so gratis on a selective basis with 100% success. Under present circumstances, we will deny it if asked though it will cost to ask the question! While the calibration process is definitive as far as specifying the static closing pressure of grippers, grippers are low-end hardware with too many variables to be fully compared just on the basis of that very accurate measurement. They are simply toys; tough, but toys nonetheless. Still, the bottom line was there was too much 'talking'. Besides, the Gripanator was developed based on specific requests for features. We now have consistent progressive training capability for grip strength. Grippers are a nice goal but they are obsolete as far as being training tools unless you develop a collection and use it based on the inherent characteristics rather than the labels or singular measurements. There is no rocket science to it, just a basic understanding and common sense. Their only importance is specificity, important primarily because of their defects (widely varying angles, strengths and strength curves) and the way a gripper is held (i.e., body and limb orientation). But the defects are so basic that G can be adjusted to mimic most of them, too." So, does the new gripper test work? Ask Rick or Bob, or the others who got (are getting) the gratis selections. We have not asked them to keep it a secret, nor have we ever done that with any facet of our business. In conclusion, recall the entire gripper experience has been a publicly documented learning experience. We started, on request, trying to build something to permit gripper negatives; we realized that was not feasible and the result was the Atlas. We measured the Atlas, on request, to see how it compared to the fairy tale gripper ratings; we tested the grippers to be sure we had done our homework right on Atlas - and found out the ratings were nonsense; we continued searching out the gripper unknowns and found out more than anyone ever guessed existed while refining G in response to very specific requests; we learned more and more about the grippers, eventually realizing they are inherently and hopelessly inadequate for any true precision across the board in the conventional sense; we built a database on grippers doing testing and measurements most have not thought of; we developed an even larger database of salient details having tested over 1000 grippers in a little over a year; and we inadvertently overlooked/skipped over a uniquely simple method of selecting harder/easier grippers. Will we continue to do gripper research or gripper related work? Do we have 'left over' grippers? What are we going to do with them? What about the equipment we built? There are bound to be dozens of other related questions that will also not be addressed, but that's a decision that forced itself by the circumstances. Perhaps all of that would be good material for a book. Regardless, there are other priorities that must be addressed and we do not have the luxury of more than 24 hours in a day. (Yet! ) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul valpreda Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 John, I respect your decision regarding the grippers. I just wanted to take a moment and thank you for the quality product you manufactured and the research you conducted on the grippers. I agree that a grip machine with the abilitiy to add weight for resistance is a better and more consistent way to build and test crushing grip strength. Good luck in future endeavors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 Hear, hear Paul. I have purchased some equipment from PDA and I have just completed the PDA HITS certification and all I got from John and PDA was PURE JOY!! :0 :hehe Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybersnott Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 John.... I'm going to ask a dumb question (since I don't know), but... Will you continue to calibrate ANY grippers sent to you in the future? Would you consider selling your "gripper work" to a third party to have them continue what you started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 I'll just take this public opportunity to thank John for good service and his help. I'll let everyone know how my gripper turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stCoC Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 John, No matter what the profit or loss was you did a great service to the grip world by answering many long debated questions on grippers.Your efforts along with your mechanical expertise in developing an accurate testing device is much appreciated. I thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest StrongerthanArne Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 I may be one of few here, but I appreciate the outstanding service minded approach of IronMind and the superb quality of their products. Randall has always been very polite even if I was asking stupid questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat 74 Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 I'm with Mikael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 I may be one of few here, but I appreciate the outstanding service minded approach of IronMind and the superb quality of their products. Randall has always been very polite even if I was asking stupid questions. Can I ask a dumb question? What does IronMind have to do with this topic? It was a topic why PDA is not doing grippers anymore. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest StrongerthanArne Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 I don't know. I just got an irresistible urge to give praise to IronMind. Apparently, I was not the only one. Sarcasm can be fun but it rarely improves company/customer relationships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 I don't know what you mean but that's ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest StrongerthanArne Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 I will try to make it crystal clear: I love IronMind and their products, whereas I think that PDA could improve as far customer relationship goes. Moreover, the quality of PDA's grippers was at least initially inferior to that of IronMind's (loose handles on two out of five grippers ordered) , so in a way I can understand why John is pulling out. John could have made it simple by producing (uncalibrated) grippers with a wire diametre between those of IronMind's T, 1,2,3 and 4 but otherwise similar characteristics. There was for example a big demand for grippers in between the #2 and #3 for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest baldy Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 I don't know what you mean but that's ok. Regarding the sarcasm, I think I might know where Mikael is coming from. When respectable people (on this board, for instance) bring up legitimate complaints / concerns and are basically told that they are wrong and to just shut up (while being referred to as "Simpleton"), it does not answer the original complaint or concern. Nor is it conducive towards future business. I won every argument I got in too when I was in third grade. Incidentally, Mikael and Heath both mentioned IronMind favorably. My last 2 orders from IronMind have gotten to me in only 3 days both times. So add me to that "happy customer" list too. In fact, IronMind has been very instrumental in the way I now train, and I too am thankful to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 Heck, Ironmind has been good to me too, I just thanked John here because it was a thread on PDA stuff. I've got no interest in a PDA/ironmind feud, I just order what I want, and if they both have it I go for what I think is best price/best quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 I'm confused why the issue is becoming confused. This is not a popularity contest, but if it were, which of the two companies has anyone posting here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 Bob – I’m with you on this one. Both are excellent. PDA is better on the personal touch though This is not a popularity contest, but if it were,which of the two companies has anyone posting here? Johann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 That was my point. This thread had NOTHING TO DO WITH IRONMIND. If you want to bitch about PDA, do it elsewhere. Same about IronMind. Both companies are great. And, that's a fact, whether you are WHINING about it or not. Roark sums it up nicely too. As he also pointed out, it's like this place doesn't exist to IronMind. But, that's ok too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted June 18, 2002 Share Posted June 18, 2002 Some people have obviously got this thread off track and are turning it into a PDA/IronMind feud. So, I am CLOSING IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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