Something to think about on a Tuesday

[Rick Walker]

Okay.  This hit me today as I sat with the #2 laying on my kitchen table.  I picked it up and easily mashed it-nothing big, nothing unusuall-I was just playing around.  I then placed it in my hand and tried to close it s-l-o-w-l-y.  It went, but I had to about blow a seam to get er' closed :crazy

So, this started the cogs in motion.  Since it is summer, and I only have one class right now, I can afford to let the mind wonder down paths of training and another stuff cooler then a humanities lit. core class that I forgot to take as a freshman :p !

The all mighty NSCA gives the definition of strength as "the maximal force that a muscle or muscle group can generate at a specific velocity."  Okay, this is common knowledge more or less.  They also use the "Force-Velocity Curve" to explain that the higher the velocity of movement, the less production of force.  The reasoning is that the actin-myosin cross bridging cannot take place as effectively in high speed movements.

Now, coming from a powerlifting background, i have experimented with many, many programs.  Progressive overload is the favorite of many, but I have found the Westside System to be the absolute best-bar none.

Grip training explains the phenom greatly and shows why the United States have struggled with weightlifting for years.

Everyone knows that Louie took much of his info from Russian weightlifting coaches.  But, Louie molded it to powerlifting.  Successful weightlifters know that to move record poundages, one must move quickly.  Brute, all out strength really has little to do with the movements.  Louie has prooven to us that this can be the fact with powerlifting.

To proove the point further-look at your grip training.  Do you mash the gripper slowly?  Or quickly?  Even if it is a #3 or #4 and it appears to be moving slow-in reality you have to be moving as fast as possible in order to make the handles touch.  If you slow down-you hit the sticking point, and the grippers stall on you.

How many times have you seen a lifter lower a squat slowly, then come out of the hole slowly?  Thousands of times here-and atleast 50-60% of the time, the lifter stalls half way up.  Louie's boys DONT stall half way up.  Now, they may not get the depth some times, and they may wear gear-but they ALWAYS blast through to lockout.  You cant move heavy weights slow.

Maybe speed work with the grippers could be your key needed to mash that goal gripper?

What do you guys think  Maybe the NSCA is wrong?

Rick Walker :hehe

[Jager]

It makes sence to me, and I too train WSB.

[Roark]

I asked a friend of mine, whom I consider to be the

ultimate authority on common-sense-what-works

training, if he would be able to pass the NSCA test, and his reply was "Not if I told the truth".

Another friend of mine needed the certification so he

answered the questions as was expected, then when he

passed, he went on his merry way with the truth. But

because he was now 'certified' he could vary. Because he was

certified. It's a lovely circle encompassing its own.

[The Mac]

Coming from England I cannot say that I know that much about the NSCA or it's principles (not enough to discuss it with any confidence, especially with people who know it inside out), but it seems logical (to me at least) that when I put "maximum effort" into any kind of lifting, the bar/stone/gripper etc is moving as fast as I can possibly make it move, whether that takes a second (light weight) or much more (very heavy). I don't think this is the place to discuss my theories on what percentages of Max to use in everyday training, but regardless of what weight I want to use, I will always try to move it as quickly as possible, at least when training for "strength" (ie. putting up as much weight as possible, velocity be damned..). When training for hypertrophy I will often move the weight less slowly than I absolutely can, because, as Rick mentions, it makes it a damned sight more difficult. It's still heavy, and I'm still working very hard, but reps are more controlled and, in so much as I believe in this principle, I am trying to make the muscle(s) do all the work. As bodybuilders (or Tom Platz anyway) often say, they move the weight so as to put more into the muscle, whilst powerlifters move the weight in such a way that it is as easy as possible (and can therefore lift more), and it just so happens that lifting quickly often has this effect.

In relation to grip work, I think both types of training might have a great deal to offer, depending on your goals. Maybe you need more muscle (which I believe can be gained more efficently using slightly slower reps) to work with in order to make it stronger (maximum speed reps). I would want to use both types anyway, at least for some of the time.

One caveat to this is that I never find it a good idea to try and pull any pinch-grip stuff that explosively, as the hands might slip off the weights. I suppose that this would also apply to vertical bar work etc.

Chris McCarthy

[The Mac]

And Yes, I just remembered that I have my name as my Quote, so I'll stop using it twice...

Chris McC - D'oh!!

[Guest DavidHW]

Interesting observations, Rick. If you think about it, gripper work is more analogous to WS's progressive resistance band work than it is traditional pushing and pulling of free weights. The spring tension on a gripper increases as you complete the motion, forcing constant acceleration throughout the squeeze in order to be successful with the heaviest weights/tension.

What would be interesting therefore is to compare two individuals who each start out on a grip machine (such as PDA's) squeezing the same weight (let's say 50 lbs). Then, one guy trains with only the machine (a static weight throughout the squeezing motion) and the other adds grippers as a supplement to the workout. If the "gripper-as-band-equivalent" hypothesis is right, and other factors being equal, the guy with the grippers should be able to squeeze more weight on the machine at the end of a set amount of time (say, eight weeks).

Don't know what any of this means, but it's sure fascinating.

David

[Rick Walker]

Hmmmmm-adding mini bands some how to a gripper to gradually increase tension?

Sounds interesting and maybe, just maybe, productive!

Rick Walker :hehe

[Bob Lipinski]

I have used some sort of speed work with the grippers. Don't know how much it helps, if anything it is some good extra light work.

I think the key to griper speed work would be to snap the gripper shut as quick as possible, then hold it there as hard as you can for a a second or two to get used to squeezing for a certain amount of time- Obviously if you can close a 3, you can close a #3 faster.

Other than that, I have been trying a Westside-style format to gripper training. I do a "max effort" day for hard singles, then I do assistance work somewhat lighter- Pinch grip, wrist rolling, etc. For max effort exercises I have done a variety of things- Hammer strength grip machine, Ivanko gripper, straphold, the hardest gripper I can close for total reps/session, attempts at the next highest gripper, and the rolling thunder.

As you probably know, much of a westside-style routine is learning the exercises, which exercises help, and what part of the "lift" they help. On top of that, you try to work for generally hypertrophy in the involved musculature.

My program is by no means perfect or even refined as of yet, but I am making steady progress in most movements. I will be testing with the #3 for total reps/session in two weeks, which has been a benchmark of my training for some time. If you're interested Rick, I'll let you know how my "Westside" experiment has helped.

As far as approximating the bands, I think that would be hard to do with grippers due to the many variations among individual grippers. However, speed work does not rely on the bands for success; I would even say that lifters that don't use PL equipment might fare better by using bands less often because there is no bench shirt to outrun.

Perhaps the equivalent of "bands" would be a gripper that has a very sharp differential- Around as hard as a typical #2 at the closing point- 1/4 or so out, but easy as a trainer beforehand. Don't know if it is possible to design, or if some people get it by the luck of the draw.

[Guest DavidHW]

Trying to think how bands might work with grippers . . .

You could sit at a table, hold the gripper in front of you, run one end of a mini-band around something strong and stationary (like a table leg), and loop the other end around the far handle so that when you squeeze you're pulling the band tighter. Even with the smallest bands however, you'd probably have to double loop the band and place it between your 3rd and 4th fingers so it doesn't fly off. But I bet it would work, especially with a Trainer or a No. 1.

David

[Nathan Say]

John Brookfield has a tip of the month article on this topic here

[Guest StrongerthanArne]

If you have seen the Kinney video, you must have noted how slowly he closes the #4. Not much speed there at any point.

[Rick Walker]

I was thinking that about Kinney's performance and I think there is actually speed involved-it just does not appear to be moving fast because it is such a heavy gripper tension.  In reality, he is gripping as fast as he can.

Watch some of the Westside guys squat-even when the weights are in the 1000s, they still attempt a fast ascent.  It may not be fast to the naked eye, but they are pushing with max effort at max speeds.

Rick Walker :hehe

[Rick Walker]

DavidHW-

 I was think more along the lines of attaching eye hooks to the bottom of the gripper, then attaching a mini band to each side.  Getting inside the power cage and attaching the bands to each side of the power cage, so the gripper is suspended in the middle of the cage.  Then just grip it and go.  This would eliminate the band being on the handle and effecting hand placement-and each day the bands could be tightened more and more to produce the Kinney "always add weight" effect-

Rick Walker

[Guest]

I think speed work is ESSENTIAL to success with the no.4 and if you look way, way back at the archives I have been saying this for a while. I have no idea what Joe Kinney did to shut his no.4 but in his case I doubt that speed was part of his plan.

The main thing with the speed is to somehow keep going hard through the sticking point of the gripper - somewhere near that last 1/2" or so. Get through the sticking point AND have the closing power and you have the no.4 in the bag.

Nick

[Guest DavidHW]

Rick:

Brilliant idea. We need a video of you setting this up. :-)

mac1:

I've used a ball of grip putty to work that last 1/2 inch you mention. Roll it into a ball, stick on the inside of the handle resting in your palm, and squeeze. When the handle in your fingers comes rushing in for the close, it's going to hit the putty, and the resistance will only become greater the faster and harder you squeeze.

Downside of this is that the putty can get stuck in the crevices of the gripper. Perhaps Silly Putty would work?

David

[RiotGrip]

Rick,

  I believe that Richard Sorin described his closure of the Phantom 4 as one quick motion.  He also said that he always used a quick motion when closing heavy grippers.  I too believe that speed is the way to maximize one's crushing grip.

[Rick Walker]

If someone builds themselves up to be able to actually close a big gripper slowly-little by little-just imagine the possibilities if they then switch to speed training and adapt to moving the gripper fast.  The brute force it already there-it could get scary :crazy

Rick Walker

[Guest Jeff Roark]

Correct me if I am wrong couldn't one use the Supergripper by Ivanko for the same purpose? I guess one could add rubber bands to it also. One more thing that BobL. mentioned and may be getting over looked is while WSB uses speed, they also use every exercise imaginable to strengthen themselves in every possible angle. They also do light GPP daily. Basically one light speed day, one max day, and the rest GPP. This is what Heath Sexton used pretty much to get where he is.

[Bob Lipinski]

One thing to remember about using rubberbands for gripper is that you'll be changing the strength curve for the worse- It will make the gripper more "even" from start to finish instead of harder.

[Guest JoeQ1966]

I have the Ivanko supergripper and I believe you can even buy extra springs for this..I use the supergripper quite a bit and I will work on it one way and then turn it over and do work on the opposite side..you can feel the tension switch from the upperhand to the lower hand just by turning it over.Basically the tension goes from the upper fingers to the lower fingers just from turning it over.

                 Joe

[Sybersnott]

Jeff Roark,

What probably works for Heath will NOT work for everyone.  I tried a number of approaches before hitting on SEVERE negatives.  They worked like gangbusters for me.  But.... that's just me.