Science

[Zizou]

Hello everyone, i was thinking about a way that should benefit any gripper enthusiast, maybe someone have posted or writed about this somewhere, but i havent find this even in KTA , the 2 books of John Brookfield that i have or any place, so i want to share my humble idea with any ppl who is interested in gripping.

The basic idea is pretty simple, its all about the formula POWER = MASS x VELOCITY (i think that is the exact translation, i speak spanish and the formula is Fuerza = Masa x Velocidad if im wrong with the translation feel free of posting the formula well) so my idea is: if you can close the #1 , the faster you can close the handles indicates in some sort of way your power.

Take this example, 2 ppl (A and B) are #3 closers, of course both of em have a lot of power in their hands BUT if both of em put all they have on closing the gripper and "A" can close it faster than "B", "A" is stronger than "B", so here we go, i thought that another way of reaching your goal gripper can be closing the gripper before (goal#2, gripper before #1) as fast as you can until you reach a high amount of repetition easy (i suppose that should be 20-30 range) and your hand power must increase.

I am testing this and i will see if it really works, i see it so simple, so if im blinded and i am not taking an important factor here please notify me, if in the other hand some of you agree and want to add something do it, we are here to help each other.

Finally, sorry if this kind of post have been discused before with any positive of negative result of the idea but like i said in the beginning, i havent read or listening about this technique in gripping, if this is a new idea (i doubt it) i would like to call it "The Zizou Fast Gripping Theory"

Peace...

[tja]

Zizou, there's a mistake there: F = M A (force equals mass times acceleration ). And, in the case of a hand gripper, the force due to accelerating the mass of handles is negligible compared to the spring force.

[Sean Dockery]

Zizou, Your idea makes sense to me. There have been quite a few people here in America that have used your idea in powerlifting with success.

I think Heath uses speed work pretty frequently too.

[unseenbeat]

It makes sense that if there is a focus on speed in other aspects of exercise, there could be that same kind of focus with grippers. Besides, it's more functional to work on closing the grippers quickly, as that is how you will actually be gripping things.

[Bill Piche]

Just remember this basic physics statement made by PJ Striet:

"You can't make Chicken Salad out of Chicken s*&@!"

There's a message in there.

[Eli72]

F=m*a= Olympic lifting that's why it translates so well to athletic sports

[Alawadhi]

in closing a gripper i don't thing the mass helps. i think the more power in the hands the better. big steve has larger hands than tommoy hesleep, but tommy is stronger than him in grippers.

[4lbhammer]

force = mass x acceleration (Newton)

power = work / time

work = force x distance

power = force x distance/time = force x velocity

which is what the man said

A and B do the same amount of work to close the same gripper (assuming a no set close) but B does the work in less time and hence is more *powerful*. This is power used to close the gripper spring - the power required to accelerate the mass in the gripper handles is negligible and can be ignored.

Edited May 16, 2006 by 4lbhammer

[Alawadhi]

not 100% true. if dave morton easily close the #3(lets say in 0.5 seconds) and i closed it with all my power in 5 seconds does it mean that i am stronger? think again. but if we both closed it in 5 seconds but dave was doing it with complete ease(with he did, look at his gallery) and not much effor then he is stronger. so we can say a person is stronger by how he does things, not by formulas.

[Bill Piche]

F=m*a= Olympic lifting that's why it translates so well to athletic sports

Explain how it directly translates if you would.

[steelbiceps]

force = mass x acceleration (Newton)

power = work / time

work = force x distance

power = force x distance/time = force x velocity

which is what the man said

Actually he said power = mass x velocity, which is not the same. Momentum = mass x velocity. Anyway, for closing max grippers, you need to develop max force, not momentum or power.

Speed with gripper closes won't help like it does with olympic or power lifting. With grippers, the mass is literally only a couple ounces, so, as tja points out, the additional force required to close it quickly is completely negligible. With olympic or power lifts, the mass is hundreds of pounds, so accelerating it quickly means you have to generate a _lot_ of extra force for acceleration.

If you were using a plate-loaded grip machine, however, the mass you'd be moving would be considerable and speed would correlate with increased force.

[Alawadhi]

man who needs all this. just get stronger and you will acheive your goal.

[TelegraphKey]

According to the Force-Velocity Curve, "power" can be measured in different ways according to the spectrum ranging from raw strength to pure speed. A deadlift is on the "mass" side of the spectrum, while a snatch is further along the "velocity" side, and a 100 m sprint much further down the velocity side.

Olympic lifts are more along the speed side of the force-velocity curve, while Powerlifting lifts are more on the raw strength side.

Activities like Gripping are more like Powerlifts, than like Olympic lifts.

Louie Simmons took some of the philosophy of Olympic WL training & applied it to Powerlifting. Louie hates Olympic lifts, and it seems he has some justification. While Olympic lifts do teach you how to explode for the Clean & Jerk and the Snatch, I read somewhere that, for the most part, most O-lifters actually train primarily at less than 75% of their max -- they rarely if ever train anywhere above 90%. So if you consider a Clean & Jerk to be about (say) 50-60% of your Deadlift, then if you train C&J for Deadlift, you wouldn't even be using 50% of your DL weight -- more like only 30%, which is too low even for Louie's speed-day training (which he recommends be around 45-60%).

Anyway, Louie Simmons & Westside Barbell template calls for Speed Days & Max Effort Days. You train your main lifts at 90% & above one day per week (for 1 - 3 reps), then train them at about 50% one other day per week (for 6 - 12 sets of 1 - 3 reps performed as explosively & with as perfect technique as possible).

Westside seems to believe this template can apply to any lifting exercise that is on the "raw strength" side of the spectrum of the Force-Velocity Curve. If that's true (& personally, I think it is), then I don't see why this philosophy shouldn't apply to Grippers.

[Zizou]

not 100% true. if dave morton easily close the #3(lets say in 0.5 seconds) and i closed it with all my power in 5 seconds does it mean that i am stronger? think again. but if we both closed it in 5 seconds but dave was doing it with complete ease(with he did, look at his gallery) and not much effor then he is stronger. so we can say a person is stronger by how he does things, not by formulas.

Hey Alawadhi i think you dont catch my example, first i suppose that you made a mistake here "if dave morton easily close the #3(lets say in 0.5 seconds) and i closed it with all my power in 5 seconds does it mean that i am stronger? think again" if he close it in 0.5 and you in 5 that mean hes stronger

I wrote in the example that both of the ppl will try to close the gripper with all they have, they will put their effort at 100%, both will try to close the gripper as fast as they can, the one that close the gripper faster must be the one with more force in their hand (stronger crushing grip)

Take this other example: Imagine 5 ppl that are totally equal, like 5 clones, same weight, same height, same hand size, etc. Give to all of them the #2 gripper and tell em to crush the gripper as fast as they can, the results are the following:

Clone 1: Closed the gripper in 0.5 seconds

Clone 2: Closed the gripper in 1 seconds

Clone 3: Closed the gripper in 2 seconds

Clone 4: Closed the gripper in 3.5 seconds

Clone 5: Closed the gripper in 5 seconds

The clone 1 must be the one that is stronger because he applied more force that any of the other clones, the variant "MASS" its equal in all the cases we are only modifying the "VELOCITY" variant, due to the more velocity he applies the bigger the force will be.

Hiphotetic velocity example

Clone 1: Velocity 30

Clone 2: Velocity 20

Clone 3: Velocity 10

Clone 4: Velocity 4

Clone 5: Velocity 2

F = M x V

M = will be the same in all cases

V = the higher the V variant is, F will be more

So the faster close = More Velocity.

So more velocity = More force.

Remember that each one will try with their all effort in the same conditions.

I agree with the ppl that the mass variant when we talk about gripping its not significant i will post about that later cuz i have a test and i need to study.

man who needs all this. just get stronger and you will acheive your goal.

hahaha, true lets stop writing and just train

[TelegraphKey]

One point: You said in your first post, "do 30 or more reps."

No, don't do 30 reps AT ONCE if you're serious about speed training!

Instead, do, say, 10 sets of 3 VERY FAST reps, with about 10-20 seconds' rest in between each set.

That's what WSB speed day lifters do.

[TelegraphKey]

But these more-experienced guys tell us that the spring on grippers makes the speed training on grippers negligible. That's probably right, since (1) it makes sense, and (2) these guys are very experienced & know what they're talking about.

[TelegraphKey]

Speed with gripper closes won't help like it does with olympic or power lifting. With grippers, the mass is literally only a couple ounces,..

If you were using a plate-loaded grip machine, however, the mass you'd be moving would be considerable and speed would correlate with increased force.

Well, wait a minute, I take that back.

Your body can't tell if the resistance it's feeling from the gripper is coming from a couple hundred-pound plate-loaded grip machine, or a gripper (within reason, you see what I mean -- I know there's important difference between gripper & grip machine, but it's not what counts here).

A CoC #2 closer can use about 100-150 lbs 1-handed on a grip machine. What difference does it make if he closes the #2, or pulls up 130 lbs, fast or slow? Both should be about the same force. Closing each faster, equals more force.

It does make sense that if you close a gripper faster than another time, that you've exerted more force on it. Simple as that.

Edited May 16, 2006 by TelegraphKey

[Eli72]

F=m*a= Olympic lifting that's why it translates so well to athletic sports

Explain how it directly translates if you would.

Did you read DIRECTLY? I didn't see it

The power clean, power snatch, push press, and jerk involve explosivly moving weight, if it's not explosive it will show when the heavy weight is put on the bar. They're total body movements and I can't think of one time where you lay on your back and push someone off you in any sport but wrestling and if you're on your back pushing someone off you're in trouble and need to stay in the room for a while longer.

in pretty much any sport there are dynamic movements much like these lifts. Your power comes from your hips and core, what do you think these lifts train? No hips=very little weight...no core=little overhead weight

personally I didn't bench for a whole summer, all I did was push press and plyo push up varation and when I reported for camp I went up 30lbs on my bench PR

If you need someone to explain the benifits of these exercises maybe the HIT program is more your style

Edited May 16, 2006 by Eli72

[PowerHouse]

I do a max effort and a dynamic effort both for weights and for my grippers. So far its been working for me and im seeing steady progress. On my dynamic effort days I like to explosivly close the gripper as hard and as fast as I possibly can for 3-5 reps. When im doing more of a max effort workout with my grippers I do singles throughout the day with a hard gripper I can barely close.

I think closing it fast will help in grippers just like it does with weights. You need barbell speed to get that big deadlift or squat up and once the barbell starts to slow down you ususally get stuck and miss the lift, I use this with grippers.

[DCTama]

i dont see why this wouldnt work, if you are closing the gripper slowly you are obviously wasting your energy, compared to going fast the same energy applied but is concentrated into a smaller space of time the close will be more successful.

[steelbiceps]

Speed with gripper closes won't help like it does with olympic or power lifting. With grippers, the mass is literally only a couple ounces,..

If you were using a plate-loaded grip machine, however, the mass you'd be moving would be considerable and speed would correlate with increased force.

Well, wait a minute, I take that back.

Your body can't tell if the resistance it's feeling from the gripper is coming from a couple hundred-pound plate-loaded grip machine, or a gripper (within reason, you see what I mean -- I know there's important difference between gripper & grip machine, but it's not what counts here).

A CoC #2 closer can use about 100-150 lbs 1-handed on a grip machine. What difference does it make if he closes the #2, or pulls up 130 lbs, fast or slow? Both should be about the same force. Closing each faster, equals more force.

It does make sense that if you close a gripper faster than another time, that you've exerted more force on it. Simple as that.

When you lift a heavy weight, such as in bench press, there are two forces acting on the weight: (1) gravity, and (2) your hands. If the mass weighs 315 pounds and you push with 315 pounds of force, the weight won't move, but will just hover there. The net force is 315 upwards minus 315 downwards, which is zero, and by F=ma, acceleration will be zero. If you push with 316 pounds, there will be one net pound of upward force and the weight will accelerate upwards very slowly. If you push with 350 pounds, there will be 350-315=35pounds of net upward force, and the bar will accelerate upwards 35 times as fast as in the previous try. This would be a very fast press. The reason it was fast is that you actually pushed with a lot more force than the minimum necessary.

With a gripper, there are two main forces -- your hand and the spring. Gravity and inertia are completely negligible with an object that weighs a couple ounces. The resistance of a spring does not depend at all on how fast you compress it.

With a plate-loaded grip machine, the two forces are, once again, your hand and gravity. The mass is not negligible, so you have to use the F=ma equation again.

It doesn't matter if your body knows if it's squeezing a gripper or a plate-loaded machine, because squeezing a plate-loaded machine actually DOES take more force when you do it fast. A gripper does not take more force.

Let me add one point, since I bet some people are thinking it:

What if you have two people, one who can just barely close a #2 gripper and one who can close it easily. You might be picturing the person who can barely close it taking longer to close it, but that's a different cause. Your muscles take a little time to ramp up to full force. If you need 99.9% of your full force to close the gripper, it will take a while for your muscles to get fully engaged. But the person who can close the gripper easily may only need 75% of his maximum force to close it, and it won't take long for his muscles to ramp up to 75% of full tension. This does not mean that they are crushing with different forces -- only that getting past 95% of your max force takes a few seconds to build muscle recruitment.

[4lbhammer]

Again, Work = Force x Distance

Power = Work/Time

= Force x Velocity

If I close a the same gripper faster than you, I do the same amount of work but I apply more power

Your hand doesnt care if the resistance is from wts or from springs BUT the force curve is not the same! A 200 lb gripper only needs that force in the last mm of its movement - whereas 200lb on a Grip Machine is 200lbs of constant resistance throught the movement and thats a lot more work. I will try to estimate the work necessary to close, say, a 200lb gripper - post that later

[Bill Piche]

Who said anything about laying on your back. Although explain why working the same pressing muscles matters whether you are lying sideways or upside down for that matter. Do the front delts magically get "better developed" by doing a standing push press versus doing a seated press in a rack for example?

Squats and pulls without having to throw the weight around catching it will work just as well IMO to develop all the necessary power in the buzz word called the "core" of the body.

Ok, so you didn't say directly. You implied it IMO.

And no one mentioned any HIT program either. My own roots are in powerlifting.

The bottom line is in athletics getting as strong as possible to support whatever sport you are in. Choose your poison. Last time I checked, I could not 'point out' what teams (in any sport when watching on TV!) did foo foo machines, Olympic lifting, or belched and farted as their magic program while they were in the weight room.

[4lbhammer]

OK so here's my question about closing grippers. When they say ferinstance it takes 200lb to close a gripper, where on the handle is the that applied? 200lb applied in the center of the handles will not have the same effect as 200 lbs at the ends. After all this is a torsion spring and its closing should be rated in units of torque ie foot pounds or inch pounds. Doesnt seem to make sense to rate a gripper's closing in units of force.

[Alawadhi]

With a plate-loaded grip machine, the two forces are, once again, your hand and gravity. The mass is not negligible, so you have to use the F=ma equation again.

no your hands don't count, unless you have a different grip machine from mine?