Making A Us Grip Organization

[Bob Lipinski]

WHSA looks like it died. The idea isn't bad however, all we need is some action.

What I would like to do is set down a list of rules with the help of four other people. I have asked Chris Rice, Jedd Johnson, Smitty, and Greg Amidon to help me out. What we will do is agree on a set of rules and structure for competition, then perhaps present it on the gripboard for discussion, and a simple yes or no vote.

My goal is to have an agreement about what rules are necessary in a grip competition first. This can and should be done sooner rather than later.

[bencrush]

Sounds awesome Bob! How can the rest of us help?

[davetps]

WHSA looks like it died. The idea isn't bad however, all we need is some action.

What I would like to do is set down a list of rules with the help of four other people. I have asked Chris Rice, Jedd Johnson, Smitty, and Greg Amidon to help me out. What we will do is agree on a set of rules and structure for competition, then perhaps present it on the gripboard for discussion, and a simple yes or no vote.

My goal is to have an agreement about what rules are necessary in a grip competition first. This can and should be done sooner rather than later.

Alright, listen I kept my mouth shut when the WHSA was mentioned, simply because I knew it would not go anywhere. But now it seems that in some way shape or form some one is going to keep bringing up the topic so let me get my two cents in.

Anyone that has been to one of my compettitions knows that I am known for putting on a great show with different events than normal(one handed 3" bar deadlift, double rolling thunder and so on) and different rules(like lifting the impliment to lock out) I like keeping things different and I do not want to go to a contest when every thing is going to be the same all the time because you or anyone else says so, and I will not run my show by any rules but my own, and if that means I get less competitors than so be it the prices will be bigger. You can ask anyone that came to my last contest the amount of sponsorship I had left us with amazing prizes.

So basically the only rules I am going to follow will be the ones I mkae for each of my events, if I go to someone else show I will follow the rules there, but if they are going to be standardized for every show I think you will just be taking the fun out it.

If its not broke don't fix it.

Stop trying to be control freaks leave things alone. Every one wants to be in charge, get conttrol of you own life be a control freak to yourself.

[Scott Styles]

I think you're on the right path Bob. Keep the contest framework simple/flexible and people will buy in.

[gamidon]

Alright, listen I kept my mouth shut when the WHSA was mentioned, simply because I knew it would not go anywhere. But now it seems that in some way shape or form some one is going to keep bringing up the topic so let me get my two cents in.

Anyone that has been to one of my compettitions knows that I am known for putting on a great show with different events than normal(one handed 3" bar deadlift, double rolling thunder and so on) and different rules(like lifting the impliment to lock out) I like keeping things different and I do not want to go to a contest when every thing is going to be the same all the time because you or anyone else says so, and I will not run my show by any rules but my own, and if that means I get less competitors than so be it the prices will be bigger. You can ask anyone that came to my last contest the amount of sponsorship I had left us with amazing prizes.

So basically the only rules I am going to follow will be the ones I mkae for each of my events, if I go to someone else show I will follow the rules there, but if they are going to be standardized for every show I think you will just be taking the fun out it.

If its not broke don't fix it.

Stop trying to be control freaks leave things alone. Every one wants to be in charge, get conttrol of you own life be a control freak to yourself.

Dave,

I like the odd events. I don't see why you cannot do what you want in a contest you sponsor. I would hate to see the rules of the organization limit you as there is no real way they could.

I think what we do want to agree on is those events that are considered standards (for records purposes) will be comparable from contest to contest. If you choose not to have those events that is your perogative. I have trouble believing that others would have a problem with it. A lot of the competitors would like to see how they stack up with some others that geographically they may never ber able to compete against. Nothing wrong with that either.

Creating consistent rules and events gives people something to train for and work on. Having unique events is a lot of fun (John Beaty's BBB contest does things uniquely).

I hope you chose to participate as your ideas with unique events can and should be considered as well.

Greg

[Mikael Siversson]

Yes, I personally don't see much of a conflict between the two approaches. Those who like to compete in competitions with mostly standardised events will do so and those who like a larger variety of non-standardised events will chose other competitions offering this.

Edited April 3, 2006 by Mikael Siversson

[Bob Lipinski]

Dave- I sent you a PM. Basically, my thoughts mirror Gregs. I love the variety, one of the things I really enjoy about grip training.

Not trying to be a control freak, just trying to get a level of organization so that we can have a real sport here. Just want very basic rules to determine what exactly a grip contest is, set some minimum basic standarized, and some level of precision to the lifts that records are kept in.

[climber511]

I love competitions - Olympic Weight Lifting - Grip strength, climbing, whatever. And other than bending, which I can't seem to do without hurting myself, I don't care much what the events are. But I do like consistancy in the lifts and the rules - and while Lord knows I'll never set a record on anything, it's nice to know where I stand on events that are standarized and commonly used in contests. I was kind of proud when I made Mikaels lists. If rules are somewhat standardized, I can measure my progess (or lack of) from contest to contest. I'd like to see basic rules and regs in place for a large number of possible grip events - then promoters could choose from that list (or even submit a new event) - and competitors would know the rules and how to train for any and all possibilities we might find at a contest. I think Bobs idea is a good one but one that discussion by all concerned can and will make even better. So if you have done, do now, or plan to do competitions in the future, lets hear from you. Do you even care - if so - let's hear your comments and ideas. And Dave, please put up a list of what you have used at your events in the past and how you did them - many of us truely are interested in what you found that worked really well for you and what you might do differently next time. Promoters are the life blood of this sport, there are only that special few willing to go to all the work involved to put one on, and many of us truely appreciate that work and try to support you by showing up and giving it our all. But in return we (at least I) like to know what we're getting into beforehand, and I think that is only fair to those of us who spend large sums of money to support the contests.

[Hubgeezer]

First things first. I believe that Chris Rice is the World Record Holder for Over 50 in the Vertical Bar Lift. Don't laugh, Chris, name someone who has done 290 in competition.

I have strong opinions on competitions, of which I don't seem to share with many, and I have rarely shared here:

1. Scoring. I like one of two ways: The "Cross Country" scoring method where the lowest score wins, based on the place that one comes in for each event. I believe this was the method that was used in the 2004 Global Grip Challenge; and the "Decathlon Method", where events have a standariized point system, for many events already existing from Statistic and Math Guru Dale Harder. All of Southern California's contests promoted by Kevin Meskew use this method.

I don't like the other methods used.

2. If you use grippers, make sure there is a full range of them. In a track and field decathlon, a Long Jumper who goes 26 feet should not get credit for only jumping 24 feet because points are only allowed for a certain level. There should be 3 grippers between the 2 and 3 and between the 3 and 4. I also like the way the Europeans rate different grippers and add the left and right hands to come up with a numerical score that is measurable.

Things for which my opinions are not strong like they are on the above:

1. Perhaps have 2 consistent or "core" events, and then the others could be 3 or 4 from around a dozen or more commonly used-but-not-set-in-stone either events.

2. Records seem to be an issue, and perhaps that can be agreed upon. Although Mikeal is sometimes criticized for calibrating too much, I was startled when I started weighing some of mine and how much 25 pound plates can vary...from 23.8 to 26.1 for mine. And, if someone who puts on contests has plates calibrated, can they be good forever to simplify the process?

3. I think it would be boring if all events were the same. Take one of the most prestigious Track and Field events in the US, the Prefontaine Classic. They have around 30-40% of the full T & F events, and sometimes, depending on who they pull in for what, the events are not the same each time. So what?

4. The rules for the events may not be standardized, and that is the way it goes. I have seen where there was 30 seconds to pull the Rolling Thunder, unlimited time, and 60 seconds. I have seen 3 attempts, 4 attempts, 5 events, and unlimited rising bar. Whatever the promoter wants to endure is fine with me.

5. I don't think that records should be limited to competitions where only so many events are contested. If it were the Rolling Thunder at a Rolling Thunder only contest, and Odd Haugen showed up to break the World Record, he should be able to get it.

Hubgeezer

[Bob Lipinski]

Good discussion!

1. I haven't specified a scoring system cause so many are in use. I will be experimenting with the Euro coeffients in my next meet I believe.

2. I agree about grippers. I have 5 grippers in between my easiest 3 and 4, and 4 grippers in between the HG250 (about an easy 2) and my easiest 3.

And......

1. For international and high level competition, I am in favor of more standardization. For local comps, have fun and do whatever, as long as it is a grip event. I would just like to see more than 1-2 types of grip tested- ie no all gripper comp. Although, if those existed I would be sure to check them out and might change my mind.

2. For the US record list I keep, I am not going to require record calibration for some time, if ever. For international events, it is already the norm so why change?

3. I agree. See above!

4. I agree, though I think there should be parameters so there is minimal consistency.

5. I would like to see more single event contests. I would hold records seperately though, like bench-only events are seperate in powerlifting. The Rolling Thunder is the only single-lift event that I know of. I will hold a bending one at my next comp if there is enough interest.

[climber511]

Kind of off topic here but this just came to me - how about piggy backing onto other types of strength events? I'm quite sure I could get a grip event or exibition put into one of the breaks at the Olympic Lifting at the Arnold Classic next year. Talk about some crowd exposure for grip. I know Jedd and Smitty already do this at Srongman events etc. Anyway - back to the topic. As for Hubgeezers comments - first - Thanks Mike - I just do the best I can with the age I have and try not to use it as an excuse. Maybe someday - grip will get big enough to have age group classes - be nice for the Geezer crowd - I know this old goat out west that does a pretty mean Hub lift

1. Scoring - I'm a math idiot - I leave this up to those smart enough to have a clue. I do think that every event should have the same effect on the total scoring - however that is to be done.

2. Grippers - can they be calibrated - I don't really know but I think small jumps between grippers help eliminate pile ups with several ties on the same gripper.

3. Certified or plates weighed on certified scales are a must for the obvious reason that plates vary sooo much. At least we're not to the point yet where we have to spend a few thousand dollars on a certified set of Ivankos or Eleikos. Weighing plates isn't that big a deal really.

4. I agree and disagree here - sure you might have different time frames - reps - rising bar etc on say a Rolling Thunder that are different, but I think the rules for actually lifting the RT should be the same (no wrist hooking, thumbless, tilting etc). In Mikes T&F example - a mile is still a mile with the mile rules everytime it is included in a meet. Just the choice of events change, not the basic rules for that event. I like the idea of a list of events with established rules for the performance of each - then within those guidelines - go with rising bar - increasing handle size medleys, reps per minutes etc. As an old slow guy, I tend to think "speed" events aren't a good test of "grip" strength as much as overall speed and reflexes are.

5. Gonna have to disagree on this one. Separate records for single event contests. There is a big difference between doing a record after three or four max effort events and 4-5 hours of a competition and doing it fresh and knowing you don't have to save anything for the rest of the day.

[davetps]

Alright so maybe I jumped the gun a little bit on that issue, as far as I am concerned as long as nothing is going to effect the way I run my show I do not care. As far as records, when ever I do an even that people might set a record at, I always use standard rules, and will continue to. I believe I was the first to do the 3" bar one handed deadlift and also the first to do a double rolling thunder pull. I think the last show we did here was the best. It took all of about 4 hours or less and great prize packages, and we had free bar-b-que.

Oh and on another note for those of you who are wondering we did the last show as charity event to raise awarness for a young man of 26 years old in medford who needed a lung lobe donation, you will all be happy to know that progress has been made and he now has the two donors that he needs going through a qualification process for the surgery, and one of those donors came from the contest.

Thanks a lot for all your help every one.

[climber511]

Alright so maybe I jumped the gun a little bit on that issue, as far as I am concerned as long as nothing is going to effect the way I run my show I do not care. As far as records, when ever I do an even that people might set a record at, I always use standard rules, and will continue to. I believe I was the first to do the 3" bar one handed deadlift and also the first to do a double rolling thunder pull. I think the last show we did here was the best. It took all of about 4 hours or less and great prize packages, and we had free bar-b-que.

Oh and on another note for those of you who are wondering we did the last show as charity event to raise awarness for a young man of 26 years old in medford who needed a lung lobe donation, you will all be happy to know that progress has been made and he now has the two donors that he needs going through a qualification process for the surgery, and one of those donors came from the contest.

Thanks a lot for all your help every one.

Now that's one great reason to have a grip contest - glad to hear about the lobe donation doing so well. Sorry if we pushed your buttons before - I don't think it was done on purpose, everyone is just trying to make things better for everyone, not step on any toes.

[Jedd Johnson]

Dave,

Your events are cool. keep having them, and keep innovating.

At GGC this year, we are not using all the same old events. Two of the 5 are new to the sport as far as I know, a RT to lockout for reps, and a block weight load and unload for points.

The pinch and the v-bar are standardized and serve as good comparisons. Who knows someday one of your innovative lifts will be standardized in a way and be a good way to compare grips across the globe.

-Jedd-

[George Champlin]

Will any of the major Grip Strength manufactures have a say in any of this? I only ask because they are usually the Major sponsors at the events and if certain rules are made then there is a possibility of losing sponsorship from certain company's.

[Bob Lipinski]

I would rather do things that I think are right for the grip game than compromise for sponsors.

[mobsterone]

Will any of the major Grip Strength manufactures have a say in any of this? I only ask because they are usually the Major sponsors at the events and if certain rules are made then there is a possibility of losing sponsorship from certain company's.

That's already happened. Robert Baraban wanted to supply ALL of the equipment for use in the British but it was for events we weren't using. I said so and he wasn't interested.

[George Champlin]

Will any of the major Grip Strength manufactures have a say in any of this? I only ask because they are usually the Major sponsors at the events and if certain rules are made then there is a possibility of losing sponsorship from certain company's.

That's already happened. Robert Baraban wanted to supply ALL of the equipment for use in the British but it was for events we weren't using. I said so and he wasn't interested.

Understood

[David Horne]

Bob,

Quite right!

David

[George Champlin]

I do not want be sound like an ass but the only reason I was wondering is because anyone who has put on a contest knows that sponsorship not only helps pay the bills but also helps with the prizes. That was the only reason why I was asking if any of the major sponsors was on the board. After all they do make the equipment but I can also understand needed standardization. But will the standardization come at the price of the contest holder who wants to have different or unique events or will the event not count towards a record if it is not followed by the rules set forth by the committee? Like I was going to have a Water Jug Carry Melody but there is not much of rules for that or for using a Go Grip Maci=hine.

[Bob Lipinski]

George-

Like I wrote earlier, there is room to add events if they seem "standard", and of course I tried to make room for people who want events way outside the norm.

John from FBBC has been very helpful, even publishing a small writeup about US Handstrength that Brian Carlton and I did. I imagine that if we were able to acheive some level of stability and respectability, the sponsors would come around.

[George Champlin]

George-

Like I wrote earlier, there is room to add events if they seem "standard", and of course I tried to make room for people who want events way outside the norm.

John from FBBC has been very helpful, even publishing a small writeup about US Handstrength that Brian Carlton and I did. I imagine that if we were able to acheive some level of stability and respectability, the sponsors would come around.

Thats great now I understand...Thanks