World class grip

[RSW]

Tom Black has a  list of grip records on his site, and he attempts to set some standards for what he considers "world class"  performance of various grip feats.  I think he is setting the bar a little too low, at least on the three feats I am training:1) one hand Deadlift with PDA Inch handle 2) Nail bending and 3) Grippers.  After three months of  total grip training I am "world class" in 1) and on the verge of  becoming "world class" in 2). Nobody becomes "world class" at anything with only a few weeks or months training.  This leads me to suggest the following standard for these three feats:

1) one hand deadlift an inch replica (173 lbs)

2) U-shape two 60-penny nails taped together.

3) Close a BBE.

I think Tom's 75% rule is a good idea, but too readily  achievable in practice.

Robert

[Guest Jeff Roark]

On the world class note... yesterday I was reading in Mastery of Hand Strength that a world class pinch grip was to pinch two old York 45lbers, not just any 45lbers. Is this true? I was kind of hoping to feel world class on pinching one of these days when I pinch my two 45lbers, which are not Yorks. what do you guys think?

[Sybersnott]

Robert.... why not ask Tom Black about that?  You may have a much better grip than you realise.  It's hard to determine what's "world class" and what isn't.  To me, closing the #3 sure does rate a "world-class" rating in terms of crushing grip.

[Nathan Say]

I think John Brookfield has good world class ratings. 45lb plate curl, pinch 45s, close the #3, bend 60 80 or 100 penny spike, do the stuff in his 'can you muster this' chapter. I also think that lifting an Inch replica off the floor is definately world class.

[Tom Black]

I was waiting for this topic to develop a little before I interjected.  In a way, I was hoping to see some good arguments to raise the numbers as suggested.   First, let me emphasize that the numbers suggested in the end of the article represent “world class” not “world record.”   To me, these are totally different things.  I came up with the idea of “world class” after observing the actual results of true international competitions for weightlifting.  I noted that while world records were being broken at the top level, looking at the entire field of competitors I found that the weights that they lifted ranged from 75% to the top 100% world record levels.  Since these numbers were from competitions that were truly at the world level I surmised that “World Class” started at the 75% observed level.   Look at many world level weightlifting competitions and you will also see a similar percentage of weight lifted from last place to first.

If I made any error, it probably was in the deadlift with thick handles, inch dumbbell type equivalent.  Problem was, most lifts are of the inch dumbbell itself, and so I took 75% of that weight.  I probably should have used 75% of what Steve Gardener is currently lifting with his plate loaded inch handle.  Interestingly, 75% of Steve’s number may be very close to the Inch dumbbell weight.  

Let me conclude by commenting upon bending two 60-penny nails and closing the BBE . Currently, I would guess that there are less than 10 who could do either feat (especially if they are medium tough 60-pennies).  On the BBE, here is my short list:  Richard Sorin, Heath Sexton, David Horne, John Brookfield and Roger Steffens.  If I were to say that only these men have a “world class” grip then it would be analogous to saying only the top 5 places in a World Weightlifting competition are “World Class.”  I don’t think this is the case, I think the entire field would be “World Class,” after all, they are competing

in a world level competition.

[mobsterone]

I'm currently using 110 kilos for reps with my 259 still my PB. By the way how cool is it to get a mention in such company

[RSW]

Thanks for the input Tom.  I will  buy your argument for closing a #3 or bending an Ironmind blue being "world class" in  the sense that so few people train for these feats that being able to close a #3 or bend a 60penny nail puts you in relatively small group.  

       I guess the problem is that so few people train these feats, so there is not much competition.  I wonder where the bar would be for "world class"  if grip events were in the Olympics ?  I think your 75% rule is good idea, but I am not sure that we have had enough competition to establish some real world records.  I think you are right in that the Millenium dumbell will soon be lifted and the new "world class" ranking would be lifting the Inch.  

      Maybe now that David Horne has started up a nail bending competition we will start seeing more people bending two 60 pennies taped together.  If more people were nail bending, I think bending iron mind blue would  be looked at as trivial.  Just think; if only  300 people  in the world bench pressed what would the world record be ?  Maybe 350lbs, which would make a world class bench = 263 lb.  Now since millions of people benchpress a world  class raw bench is well over 500lbs.

      So, I guess  your 75% analysis is right, but it is up to gripboard memebers to raise the bar.

[Guest DavidHW]

Self-selection also plays a role. For example, while having one million competitive gripsters in the world would raise the record bar, I wonder if it would raise it by as much as we think. People tend to pursue activities they're naturally good at, i.e., someone who's overall-body strong tends to pick up on that fact by their teens and takes up sports/events that allow them to demonstrate their skills.

With grip, I imagine we're doubly self-selected: most of us probably (1) knew we were somewhat strong and so we got into weights, and then (2) discovered that our bodies trained well for grip and began to pursue that specialty. Are there many guys sitting at desks who've never been in a gym who could close the No. 3 with little effort? I doubt it. The fact that so many of the WSM still have to train for the No. 3 should give us an indication of its worthiness as a world-class feat.

And we're not even considering whether the bar is to be set for enhanced or drug-free grip competitions. Someone above mentioned a raw +500 bench . . . the feat may no longer as rare as it was, but the number would be drastically reduced if you included only lifetime drug-free lifters. A raw 400 bench is an admirable lift, IMHO, for that group. The fact that No. 4 grippers aren't being closed all the time though probably confirms that from a No. 3 to a No. 4 is a *huge* gap in performance.

My thoughts only.

David

[Jett]

Some interesting replies, but, considering what you have done in the past three months, maybe your logic is a little flawed. I mean, I have read a lot of stories and seen a handfull of "freaks" that do a lot with little training. Maybe a strong grip is your gift. Look at weight-lifting, many of the people that lift, lift because they are already strong, and want to get stronger. The people getting the huge numbers are naturally built to lift, they arent just some 98 pound weaklings who decided one day to start lifting and suddenly along the line they are world class, sometimes people just arent built, have the mindset, or the genetics to do something. Now getting to the grip aspect of this argument... I dont think its a fair judgement to say that just because only a handfull of people that actually train grip, they would not look as strong if more people trained grip. Getting back to the thing about people that are natural in something, a lot of the time these people will do something about their gift.  Anyway, the "world standards" in grip are what they are right now, and until it becomes mainstream we will probobly never know for sure. But in my opinion, just because it isnt mainstream, doesnt mean that a few "freaks" have already exploited their potential, **cough** Kinney... who knows, maybe you will be the next certified #4 CoC.

P.S... Are you SURE you never did any grip training before this, farming, deadlifts, some construction job that taxes your grip a lot, and.. how big are you, height, weight?

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[Guest]

The number of people competing in grip competetions would

seem to be irrelevant.  I believe it has been demonstrated on

many occasions that these specific feats can not be

performed, even by very strong men, if they have not been

specifically trained for.

 

Since specificity of training is required (for all but the most

rare and gifted) we can be confident that those who hold

the world records are indeed the best in the world.

We can observe from other more mainstream sports whether

or not the 75% rule applies.  If it does, we can than apply

the rule with confidence to grip sports.

[RSW]

P.S... Are you SURE you never did any grip training before this, farming, deadlifts, some construction job that taxes your grip a lot, and.. how big are you, height, weight?

           Jett,

            I have a sedentary job, and I have been weight training for about 10 months, grip training for three.  However, I am 6'4", 350 lb.s (down from 375 and working towards 275lbs as a goal weight).  So, I do probably have a size advantage in nail bending and Inch dumbell lifting.  It is noteworthy that a lot of good steel benders are large people (Brookfield, "Slim" Farman, Strongman etc.).  It is also interesting that size  does not seem to help in crushing strength.  After 3 months training I am still stuck on the Coc #1.

           I don't mean to say that closing a Coc#3, bending a 60penny, or lifting a 120 lb.s on an Inch dumbell are not feats to be proud of.  I just  suspect that if our "sport" takes off they will become  very common.  Personally, I will be very proud if I manage a raw, drug-free, 450lb  benchpress even though it is no where near "world class"

Robert