Set Vs. No-set

[DrPepper]

I have never seen any "jimbob" TNS a gripper to close it. Even a little set makes a huge difference in what you can do.

People seem to forget that TNS is not the only kind of no set close. I agree I've never seen a person not into gripping try a TNS their first time picking it up. I've also never personally seen someone I've handed a gripper to try and set it, including girls. Every single one of them puts it in their hand and squeezes no set.

End tangent.

No set's and set closes are BOTH good. Train BOTH of them. For a majority of people a set is NOT a necessity but instead an effective training tool. If you can no set a sport with a ton of work you might be able to no set much harder grippers.

[Bearcat 74]

Yup, if someone sets and closes a BBE and someone no sets that same BBE, there is absolutly no question who is stronger.

Is this true? There is a truth about grippers and hand placement that nobody argues, and that is there are places in your hand that naturally provide better leverage. Some people can TNS a gripper with the gripper in a decent but not optimal place in the hand while others cant get it to the same place in their hand. In grippers they are not size adjusted so just because someone can no set it does not make him stronger, it may just make him stronger AT THAT WIDTH.

Now to prove my point, Take a griper with a 1" spread, and re-test both individuals in your example are you going to guarentee that the one who no set it is still stronger? I think that is the difference that should be recognized. No setting a gripper does not guarentee you are stronger, only that you are stronger at that specific width. There are plenty of people myself included that have to finger walk a gripper to TNS it. I will never be good at this and to be very honest, I cannot see how this is even relevent to any "functional" thing I could do.

As with anything, I could be wrong

I think it would make you stronger as you are pulling the gripper thorugh it's full power curve with less than optimal positioning. I don't think that someone with 9" hands could get a gripper no set in the high hand postion of a set. If they did, I don't see them keeping the palm handle in that position when they begin to squeeze. There is little to no palm handle movement with a set, no set or TNS at least with me, it moves and squirms until it runs into my thumb pad, my hands are 8 1/8". I think if you took me and John Wood, he is real close to no set closing what I set close, our hands are similar size. If we had a gripper 1" wide and we tested, I would be very surprised if he didn't blow me away. We are closing the same gripper, but his hand is stronger through an entire range which I think would transfer over.

Like Greg, I could be wrong......

[Alawadhi]

MMS closes take the hand size and technique out of the equation.

Very true.

[gamidon]

I think it would make you stronger as you are pulling the gripper thorugh it's full power curve with less than optimal positioning. I don't think that someone with 9" hands could get a gripper no set in the high hand postion of a set. If they did, I don't see them keeping the palm handle in that position when they begin to squeeze. There is little to no palm handle movement with a set, no set or TNS at least with me, it moves and squirms until it runs into my thumb pad, my hands are 8 1/8". I think if you took me and John Wood, he is real close to no set closing what I set close, our hands are similar size. If we had a gripper 1" wide and we tested, I would be very surprised if he didn't blow me away. We are closing the same gripper, but his hand is stronger through an entire range which I think would transfer over.

Like Greg, I could be wrong......

I agree with what you are saying. I just think you cannot evaluate this with different grippers. I do agree if someone can close the same gripper as your max and he does from a further distance then he is stronger.

[Wes]

I just saw some comments elsewhere that blow my mind. Things like, "I closed such-and-such higher BB gripper, before I could no-set close CoC # 2." This blows my mind. Is a parallel (or closer) set really that much easier than a no-set? If that's the case, then I should be fairly close to set-closing a BBSM or maybe even a #3...

(But why would any set be much easier than no-set? The springs make the gripper harder, the closer the handles are.)

It sounds like the theory of using sets is similar to using partial-range motions in a bench press or squat, etc. Is that right?

I have 8.25 inch hands, and when I first started gripping, I no setted all the time, not knowing that you could set it. I think this had a positive effect on my strength. Even now, I no set my filed #2 just because there is no point in setting a gripper that I can easily TNS. The only time I use a set is when I close my #3 , and even then a MMS feels awkward for some reason, like my fingers are too close together.

[Bearcat 74]

I think it would make you stronger as you are pulling the gripper thorugh it's full power curve with less than optimal positioning. I don't think that someone with 9" hands could get a gripper no set in the high hand postion of a set. If they did, I don't see them keeping the palm handle in that position when they begin to squeeze. There is little to no palm handle movement with a set, no set or TNS at least with me, it moves and squirms until it runs into my thumb pad, my hands are 8 1/8". I think if you took me and John Wood, he is real close to no set closing what I set close, our hands are similar size. If we had a gripper 1" wide and we tested, I would be very surprised if he didn't blow me away. We are closing the same gripper, but his hand is stronger through an entire range which I think would transfer over.

Like Greg, I could be wrong......

I agree with what you are saying. I just think you cannot evaluate this with different grippers. I do agree if someone can close the same gripper as your max and he does from a further distance then he is stronger.

Ok, let's say I have my BBSE and my hard BBE here. The heavens open and I set and shut my BBSE, John attempts a set and gets it to 3/8", I attempt a no set on my hard BBE, and I get it to parallel, John picks it up and grinds it no set, there is no way that I could sit there and say, "well I closed a BBSE and he didn't I am stronger."

Is this more along the lines of what you are saying? If I am off base, bring me back.

[Bob Lipinski]

Given your example Heath, I would just say you are different!

And I'm not trying to belabor this point too much, but in the above example, say your hands were an inch shorter than John's, then the question would be more muddled. What is a full range of motion for some is wriggling like hell to get the thing out of the crook of your thumb for others.

Kinda like I couldn't bench press nearly as much as if the uprights were a foot above my reach. Sure, I could clean the weight, lay down with it, and then press- But someone who could just reach the bar may press more in that fashion, are they a stronger presser?

Oh boy, hahahaha I will have to learn to let this topic go! This one and bench shirts always get me!

Some guys (including me) get excessively riled up here because there are people who sometimes imply that a set is cheating, and the people who do it are horrible rotten weak cheaters. Nobody is doing that here, and Heath of all people is not against a set. Maybe I am just babbling cause I am bored

[Bob Lipinski]

This would be my noset Nirvana!

http://www.cyberpump.com/gallery/GripGallery/ach

[Bearcat 74]

Given your example Heath, I would just say you are different!

And I'm not trying to belabor this point too much, but in the above example, say your hands were an inch shorter than John's, then the question would be more muddled. What is a full range of motion for some is wriggling like hell to get the thing out of the crook of your thumb for others.

Kinda like I couldn't bench press nearly as much as if the uprights were a foot above my reach. Sure, I could clean the weight, lay down with it, and then press- But someone who could just reach the bar may press more in that fashion, are they a stronger presser?

Oh boy, hahahaha I will have to learn to let this topic go! This one and bench shirts always get me!

Some guys (including me) get excessively riled up here because there are people who sometimes imply that a set is cheating, and the people who do it are horrible rotten weak cheaters. Nobody is doing that here, and Heath of all people is not against a set. Maybe I am just babbling cause I am bored

I agree Bob, we would be different, the difference would be he would be stronger.

Now with an inch shorter hand, my thoughts on that. His hand is bigger, so his no set should technically be better. My thinking, I closed a bigger gripper with a set than he did by 3/8", he destroyed a bigger gripper no set than I did I was only parallel, I have to work harder because he is stronger. That's just my way of thinking. Just like blockweights, someone may lift a heavier weight than I do and they may have a hand 1" longer, that means I need to be stronger.

I see what you are saying and where you are coming from.

You no set that BBE at that width with your tiny little mitten and it would be simple insanity, bottom line.

[Wes]

This is going to sound totally noobish but here it goes. What exactly does MMS, TNS and CCS closes mean? I just grab my grippers position it in my hand and squeeze. I am new to technique and would like to learn. Thanks

MMS- Paralell handles

TNS- total no set, pick the gripper up and close it, no help from your other hand

CCS- credit card set, must fit a credit card between handles before closing.

[climber511]

I try and try but I still can't set a gripper for nothing. For me a CC set means I got it deeper than usual

Seriously, disregarding everything else - you just have to do more "work" the wider the set. I veiw the issue as a progression for myself at least - I want to MMS my #3, then CC set it, then TNS set, That's the way I trained for my BBSM - does it mean anything about anything - I don't know but I know "I" was stronger when I became able to TNS it - and yes I fiddle around with it in my hand some but I never get a true set that way. And for those of you who have seen me try to set a gripper - no laughing!

[Scott Styles]

For the longest time, I thought I knew how to set a gripper. I thought I was doing the mash monster set by pressing the palm handle of the gripper into my thumbpad, parallel to it. The I'd bring the gripper down to about an inch and close it.

I was wrong!!!

Once I learned to really do a MM set and press the palm handle of the gripper into the crease on my palm closest to the knuckle joints, I immediately had more leverage, but I had to set the gripper really deep. I finally understood how people could set a gripper deeper than parallel before closing it. I was so excited I posted this pic:

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=2900

If I'm showing someone the grippers, I set it the old way. This is because I do think most non-grip people would view a good MM set as cheating or a trick. In a contest or going for a PR gripper, I'm using a MM set.

[rying]

For me, a TNS is like running full speed toward a bar and pulling a heavy DL before even coming to a complete stop! (or something like that?). Impressive sure, but not very good for training purposes.

I can (barely) TNS my filed BBSA, but then it doesn't feel like I did anything. Or I can close my BBSM with a MM set and I can really feel the increased stress throughout my hand. Much better for getting strong.

Shallow sets (like CC) have their place for training and getting strong, but TNS all comes down to hand size and gripper spread. Impressive trick, but no good for getting strong.

[gamidon]

Ok, let's say I have my BBSE and my hard BBE here. The heavens open and I set and shut my BBSE, John attempts a set and gets it to 3/8", I attempt a no set on my hard BBE, and I get it to parallel, John picks it up and grinds it no set, there is no way that I could sit there and say, "well I closed a BBSE and he didn't I am stronger."

Is this more along the lines of what you are saying? If I am off base, bring me back.

If he was stronger than you than there is no way you could close a tougher gripper than he could. So in your example the fact he can no set an easier gripper means nothing. Lets face it, the hardest part of the gripper close is at the bottom. If he does not have the strength to close a BBSE with a set, he sure as hell wont get it with a no set. His peak strength is lower than yours. The noset strength can be handicapped by hand size, the set strength is not. Is there really any other way to see it?

[Bearcat 74]

Ok, let's say I have my BBSE and my hard BBE here. The heavens open and I set and shut my BBSE, John attempts a set and gets it to 3/8", I attempt a no set on my hard BBE, and I get it to parallel, John picks it up and grinds it no set, there is no way that I could sit there and say, "well I closed a BBSE and he didn't I am stronger."

Is this more along the lines of what you are saying? If I am off base, bring me back.

If he was stronger than you than there is no way you could close a tougher gripper than he could. So in your example the fact he can no set an easier gripper means nothing. Lets face it, the hardest part of the gripper close is at the bottom. If he does not have the strength to close a BBSE with a set, he sure as hell wont get it with a no set. His peak strength is lower than yours. The noset strength can be handicapped by hand size, the set strength is not. Is there really any other way to see it?

We aren't talking about hand size now, we are talking about two people with similar sized hands. Some people may not get all that much from a set due to a monster sweep. I think Robbie V was like that, good close, monster sweep. He would not gain as much as me from a set, I have a good close, a girlish sweep. So let's go back to me and John. John, crazy sweep, me, girly sweep, I will gain quite a bit from a set, John will gain but not as much. The BBSE attempt let's say was 3/16" with a set to my close, no set time with the BBE, here my puss sweep will shine like a new nickle, as will John's sweep. Mine a glaring weakness, his a strength that he will use to kick my ass. Take 2 guys that are similar in strength, one with a monster sweep that can outrun a lot of the gripper, one with a great close, have them do a straphold, inside guy wins, no set, outside guy wins. I think I could do a straphold with more weight than Wood, I think, but I know I could not sweep say a hard 4 to the same spot. This is a similar situation as I see it.

[gamidon]

To be honest your scenario puts you both near equal. I would always favor those who can close the bigggest gripper over who can TNS the most. I realize other will have another opinion, but it is hard to comprehend saying someone if stronger (normally referring to peak strength) but cannot close the same gripper.

I personally am no fan of no-setting, the whoe fingerwalking thing seems very silly to me. I actually hurt one of the tips of my fingers doing it because I was almost in position to close and I went to finger walk the gripper one more time and slipped and only the tip of one finger was on. I hyperextended the finger. I can appreciate those who excel at it.

[TelegraphKey]

Okay. Explain this to my simple mind. What's the best/easiest way to set a gripper? Do you use washers or something like that, or do you just use something (like other hand) to push it to a certain point?

[bencrush]

Okay. Explain this to my simple mind. What's the best/easiest way to set a gripper? Do you use washers or something like that, or do you just use something (like other hand) to push it to a certain point?

Just use the offhand to push or pinch the handles to where you want them. Try to minimize the amount of pressure that the gripping hand exerts while setting. Save that exertion for the actual attempt.

[TelegraphKey]

Okay, thanks!

But what's the buzz about washers, etc. What kind would I get if I wanted to use them on CoC grippers?

[bencrush]

Okay, thanks!

But what's the buzz about washers, etc. What kind would I get if I wanted to use them on CoC grippers?

Some people use the washers in place of hose clamps. I have never used them but have used the hose clamps extensively. I guess you'd get some with a big enough hole to fit the spring through it so you could choke the gripper up.

[Fissure]

veiw the issue as a progression for myself at least - I want to MMS my #3, then CC set it, then TNS set, That's the way I trained for my BBSM

I agree. This is what I intended when I said that I needed to NS my 3# to feel like I own it. I'm glad I MMS it, but I would like to go through the same progression that you laid out. Again, I think this just comes down to personal "feelings".

Thanks for your responses Ben. I get what your saying - I would always like to close (MMS) the next gripper up to! I think that the way I look at it is - NSing a gripper I can MMS, is like a second "layer" of accomplishment. I provides another goal that doesn't supersede MMS, but (for me) adds a certain satisfaction.

[terminator]

The most interesting thing about this thread is that Heath has a "Girly sweep"......absolutely humorous, and completely wrong.

[Sean Dockery]

Ben, Let me try to clarify what I was saying earlier.

In my experience, anytime we say that we don't care what other people think we are trying to fool ourselves/others. I find myself constantly doing this. Saying to my wife, "I don't care what (insert name) says/thinks/whatever." When in reality, I do really care. Part of my job is counseling college students and I've seen over and over again that a large part of human thought and action is dominated by what I call "perception management". If you can honestly say that you do not do things to create the idea that you are strong in people who do not really know you (in my mind anyone outside your immediate circle of friends is a Jimbob), then I commend you for your maturity. But I would wager that when you do some introspection you will find that you very much care what Jimbob thinks. I am certain that I struggle constantly to do less perception management, and to truly be myself.

On no set being "stronger", I thought my example and Heath's example would be a no brainer. It seems so commonsensical to me. I suppose we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I will say again that if Johnny and Jimmy are standing in the same room, and Johnny sets and closes x gripper, then hands the gripper to Jimmy and Jimmy no sets it; my immediate reaction is to credit Jimmy with more strength. I suggested you be honest and agree with me, because I thought that perhaps you were unwilling to give credit for greater strength. It's apparent that you've thought this issue thru quite a bit more than I, and if you are convinced of your position then I'll respectfully disagree.

[gamidon]

On no set being "stronger", I thought my example and Heath's example would be a no brainer. It seems so commonsensical to me. I suppose we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I will say again that if Johnny and Jimmy are standing in the same room, and Johnny sets and closes x gripper, then hands the gripper to Jimmy and Jimmy no sets it; my immediate reaction is to credit Jimmy with more strength. I suggested you be honest and agree with me, because I thought that perhaps you were unwilling to give credit for greater strength. It's apparent that you've thought this issue thru quite a bit more than I, and if you are convinced of your position then I'll respectfully disagree.

Sean,

Given the same gripper closing it further out takes more strength. I agree. I only point out that if someone can no set a griper and you cannot but you can set a a tougher gripper and close it and the no set person can not close it no set or with a set. I would argue only that he who closed the tougher gripper is stronger. Does this make sense?

Edited February 24, 2006 by gamidon

[gamidon]

The most interesting thing about this thread is that Heath has a "Girly sweep"......absolutely humorous, and completely wrong.

I agree, I laughed about this. Girly sweep. Ya right.