Difference Between Crush & Pinch

[TelegraphKey]

What's the average relation between Crushing strength & Pinching strength?

I think I suck at Crushing/CoC grip. I've only closed a #2 once, and it's a bear for me anytime I mess with it though I'm trying to get better at it.

But I think I'm okay at some Pinch gripping. The other day on the Hub-Pinch I double-deadlifted 2 35's with 3-2.5's for a total weight of 42.5 each and I have done a 45 plate once before. From what I can tell even Hub-Pinching 35's is kind of respectable. So why do I suck so much at Crushing CoC grip but seem okay at some other types of grip?

[mindovermatter]

first of all you don't suck at crush, any person who can close a CoC#2 is WELL above an average mans crushing power, second: congrats on the hub lifts that nuts, i broke a 45 lb blob of the ground about 5 or 6 inches and thats my pr for pinch, could it be you focus more on pinch instead of crush....if so that is why you are better at pinch

Edited December 12, 2005 by mindovermatter

[ruffhans]

im more weak on pinch than crush. im not suprised though, i never liked pinching so i dont trian with it much.

[Darco]

Even though I climb, my pinch is among the weakest on the board, it really is THAT bad.

My crush is OK.

Edited December 13, 2005 by Darco

[big bri]

i don't think there's an average relation between crushing and pinch grip.

like mindovermatter said, your crushing strength is well above average. i only know one other person who can close the #2 and i know plenty of strong dudes.

personally i don't train pinch that much. i just do the usual pony clamp stuff to strengthen my thumbs to benefit my gripper closes. the pinching that i have tried i have been able to pinch 2 25 lb plates. i definitely can't hub lift a 45 but i can close the #3. i consider myself primarily a gripper guy, otherwise i'd train pinch more seriously.

[TelegraphKey]

Man, reading things around here it seems like every other guy can easily close the #2 if not the #3 so I feel pretty low on the totem pole. Where I physically live, me & this other guy are just about exactly at the same place for closing/almost closing the #2, but we both don't know anyone else locally who's even close or cares about it.

Yes, I also think there might not be any "average" relation between grip & pinch strength. They almost seem completely unrelated.

I've never even seen a Blob so I have no idea what I could do on it. It seems pretty big in diameter, so I wouldn't have many high hopes, though.

[Left Side]

They said that the #2 was well above the average person, not the average grip trainer.

TK seriously take some videos of your closes or even attempts at the #2, if you stick around on the board and keep training, you will greatly enjoy looking back on these in a couple months, when you will be smashing the #2. I remember when me and Muscle Turtle first started grip training, we thought the #2 was god. Keep grip training and you will redefine what thought you were capable of doing.

And good work on the pinch, how long have you been training?

[TelegraphKey]

Thanks, Left Side. I was looking at your workout log on the other board & getting pretty fired up. I hadn't even thought of trying to pinch 2 different size plates as a way to jump up in weight, so the next day I tried & succeeded at pinching a 25 & a 35 for a couple seconds. Also, your comment on the Close-the-Gap Straps is right on: I'm beginning to realize that Static Strap-Holds are perhaps THE key to advancing crushing power.

To tell the truth, I'm an amateur powerlifter with semi-respectable lifts in the 3 powerlifts, so I sort of expect to be stronger than I am at gripping. For whatever reason, I feel I'm simply better at Pinching than at Crush Grip; perhaps my deadlift style relies more on my fingertips than most guys, I don't know. I had elbow tendonitis last winter, and the other guy I was talking about suggested I do some grip & wrist curl exercises, so I began doing fairly focused hand-strength routines about last March, so about 9 months is how long I've been doing this stuff now, grippers, pinch exercises, wrist curls & levers, etc.

[Dumleman]

Maybe you got wide but short fingers and that might benefit pinch more then grippers?

[Left Side]

Thanks, Left Side.  I was looking at your workout log on the other board & getting pretty fired up.  I hadn't even thought of trying to pinch 2 different size plates as a way to jump up in weight, so the next day I tried & succeeded at pinching a 25 & a 35 for a couple seconds.  Also, your comment on the Close-the-Gap Straps is right on:  I'm beginning to realize that Static Strap-Holds are perhaps THE key to advancing crushing power.

To tell the truth, I'm an amateur powerlifter with semi-respectable lifts in the 3 powerlifts, so I sort of expect to be stronger than I am at gripping.  For whatever reason, I feel I'm simply better at Pinching than at Crush Grip; perhaps my deadlift style relies more on my fingertips than most guys, I don't know.  I had elbow tendonitis last winter, and the other guy I was talking about suggested I do some grip & wrist curl exercises, so I began doing fairly focused hand-strength routines about last March, so about 9 months is how long I've been doing this stuff now, grippers, pinch exercises, wrist curls & levers, etc.

←

No problem, you know you should really start a training log, you will find lot's of very helpful feedback from the very knowledgeable people on the board. Since you are a powerlifting, you are at an advantage in grip training. To be honest I am surprised you are not further along after 9 months, but I suspect the problems lies not in effort or potential but in training techniques. Get that log going and all those problems will get sorted out.

Good stuff on the 25/35, this is more difficult than two 25's + 10lbs, so the 35's are getting close.

[TelegraphKey]

No problem, you know you should really start a training log, you will find lot's of very helpful feedback from the very knowledgeable people on the board. Since you are a powerlifting, you are at an advantage in grip training. To be honest I am surprised you are not further along after 9 months, but I suspect the problems lies not in effort or potential but in training techniques. Get that log going and all those problems will get sorted out.

Good stuff on the 25/35, this is more difficult than two 25's + 10lbs, so the 35's are getting close.

←

I know, huh? about my crushing grip. However, when I say I've been doing this hand stuff for 9 months, it's actually the pinching stuff I've mainly been doing (and wrist curls). I've been so frustrated on & off with the CoC crusher that I've completely avoided it for several weeks at a time. It wasn't until I discovered this board that I began to really renew my interest in the CoC gripper, so that's only been about a month. And even then, I really haven't begun seriously working out regularly on it.

I might order the KTA program before too long. But I've seen a few people comment that CoC grip work sucks up a lot of commitment, perhaps to the exclusion of other types, pinching, etc. And I'm still not really sure I want to do that.

I think in a couple months, I probably will finally settle into a real focus on it.

I notice that you're a pretty focused mofo. I'm not sure I can quite muster the zeal you have for it, but maybe I'll come around to your way of seeing things before too long.

[Sybersnott]

I think I suck at Crushing/CoC grip.  I've only closed a #2 once, and it's a bear for me anytime I mess with it though I'm trying to get better at it.

So why do I suck so much at Crushing CoC grip but seem okay at some other types of grip?

←

DROP EVERYTHING that your doing now and concentrate solely on building your crush grip.

You say you suck at it... I'm thinking that you don't work hard enough on it. Do you have a grip machine? If not, get one (the BB is great and I recommend it).

[TelegraphKey]

Well, I think you're right. That's the problem. I don't know if I want to "drop everything." I've done other obsessive diversions in my past life, so maybe I'm capable of doing this. But I have to admit, I'm not inclined to "dropping everything."

And by "everything," does that include my bigger compound lifts? What am I supposed to do with my deadlift & back work if/while I focus on strict grip work?

No, I wish I had a grip machine but that's at least a ways down the road. I live in Alaska so shipping alone will always be very nasty.

I really appreciate everyone's tips & helpful suggestions, nonetheless. Thank you all!

[bencrush]

I think that once people are at the Elite level of gripper and maybe slightly above, that pinch strength is usually high (@170+ 2 hand pinch). There are definitely some exceptions though.

I am one of those for sure. I might be the weakest 2 hand pincher out of all the guys to certify on the MM2. Lately I haven't gone over 130 pounds on the 2 hand pinch. I'm obviously not pleased with that distinction, but it serves as an interesting point.

If the other MM2 closers were asked what their 2 hand pinch is, I'd guess that the average number would be 170-180 pounds. Or somewhere in that area.

And the MM3 closers would probably have a slightly higher 2 hand pinch average than the MM2 closers.

Same for the levels that are far above the MM2.

I'm looking at the MM3 list and I am amending my guess to the average 2 hand pinch is probably 200 pounds! Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

I'm not saying that their pinch is so strong because their crush is so strong. Just saying that there seems to be a bit of a correlation there. Otherwise it would be possible for a man to be a 100 pound 2 hand pincher and STILL close the MM3.

I think there is more correlation than what I've previously thought before this thread was started.

[TelegraphKey]

Hmm, I guess I'm flip-flopping, but you make a good point. It seems like there should be some correlation -- great strength in one OUGHT to correlate to pronounced strength in the other.

Still, I know in the interest of all-around strength & health in general I ought to try to be as well-rounded as possible -- but, still, it seems to me that the world of grip-mania mainly revolves around closing Grippers, bending nails, and maybe picking up Rolling Thunders. Isn't there something worthwhile about working mostly on increasing one's pinch strength? If many people "drop everything" to get stronger at Grippers, why can't some people "drop everything" to more or less exclusively work Pinch strength?

[Bearcat 74]

Scott Clayton was decent on grippers, closed a hardish 3 a couple of times. He 1 hand pinched over 120lbs, I am thinking it was 132lbs but I am not positive. He picked up a PDA IDB loaded to 176lbs the first time he ever tried it. 3 25's first time. I'm not sure there is a whole lot of correlation. There is some carryover don't get me wrong, but I don't think you can say since he closed this he can do that. I have done 2 hand pinch 1 time, but I don't think I could 4 hand pinch 200lbs. I think that there may be more gripper carryover to wide pinch strength, blobs and what not. I can do grippers and not touch blobs forever and still lift them. Maybe it's just all in how someone is hooked up, I dunno............

If you are wondering about Scott's 2 hand pinch, it was mid 180 or 190 the one and only time I saw him do it. I also watched him casually 2 hand pinch 3-45's and do some short holds and attempted 1 hand negatives.

[Sybersnott]

If many people "drop everything" to get stronger at Grippers, why can't some people "drop everything" to more or less exclusively work Pinch strength?

←

The term "drop everything" means that you eliminate most if not all of your other grip duties and focus solely on one particular area in which you need to develop. You don't need to drop your other weightlifting stuff... just the grip stuff.

And STOP floundering around!! Just get to it!

[Scott Styles]

TelegraphKey, when you closed the #2, how was your set? Did you use chalk?

I'm more inclined to think your skill at closing the grippers isn't that great and that if you focus on learning how to do it with the best leverage, you are actually stronger on the grippers than you think. I bet if you went through just the first 3 weeks of KTA you would find yourself dominating that #2.

What makes me say that? I can barely close my easy #2 and I can barely one hand pinch 2 25s. Pinching 2 35s is some pretty serious hand strength.

When I close the #2, it's with a nice deep set and my pinky halfway off the end of the gripper. I also chalk the crap out of my hand. I think that's how most guys are doing their "best" gripper closes.

[Left Side]

There's nothing wrong with chalking the crap out of your hand. And a "nice deep set" sounds like a mash monster set to me. A close is a close, be proud of it, and then move on to the next level, refuse to be satisfied with what you have attained.

[TelegraphKey]

Guys, thanks for your responses. Thing is, I really am a newbie especially about the CoC's. I'm still not even quite sure exactly what a "set" is or at least exactly how it's done. I'm going to order the IronMind book "CoC Grippers What They Are & How to Close Them" (Is this a worthwhile purchase?). I don't have much money to spare so it's going to be at least a couple more weeks before I can purchase the KTA (which I want to do).

In fact, I might just go for the gusto in a month or so & go ahead & order a Grip Machine -- I know IronMind is expensive, but is it worth it? (It seems hit-and-miss with IM -- some of their products seem outstanding, others seem quite a bit overpriced).

Scott Styles, technically, I haven't actually picked up 2-35's. Last week my hands were in the zone & I had a LOT of chalk & I actually (to my happy surprise) pinched a 25 & a 35, but the other day I attempted this again but wasn't even close. Long way to 2-35's! (On the plus side, I pulled 650 in a rack-partial Deadlift from just above the knees, my p.r.! Each week, I start from a very high partial, then go down one notch the next week, until I reach the floor, when 45's are on the floor. I'm aiming for 550 full deadlift in mid-January.)

And through it all, the CoC gripper is still my f*ing nemesis. Bastard!

[TelegraphKey]

BTW, here's something I just wrote on another thread, which I thought I should also say here. Thanks.

(I don't have access to a digital camera, but I probably could get one someday. I hope guys don't think I'm b.s.-ing my way about everything. I know "gym lifts" don't really count, especially for telling people stats in public, but I know I don't lie about my own lifts, at least partly because I usually don't have anyone to talk to much about lifting, so I'm not really in the habit of making-up fish stories! But I'll try to come up with some video proof of things before I state anymore claims in public about anything.)

[Scott Styles]

The COC book isn't a very good technique book on how to close the grippers. It's more about the history of the grippers and how Joe Kinney trained. You can get better training advice for the money IMO. If I were to buy a grip machine, I'd get the one from http://www.wwfitness.com, mostly because Sybersnott has championed it so much.

A 25 and a 35 is still a pretty good pinch. You ought to have the base strength needed in your thumbs. And your supporting grip is more than enough. I doubt I could pick 315 off the rack, I've actually never held more than a 225lb barbell in my hands.

To learn the set, I'd suggest watching the videos here:

http://www.mashmonster.com

Basically, you want to put the gripper handle in your palm on the first crease below the fingers, as noted with the red line here:

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=2900

Then you bring the gripper handle in with your other hand until you can get all your fingers around it, then smash it shut. It takes some practice, but I find it to be a big help in getting leverage on a harder gripper. And chalk, of course, helps to keep the gripper in place.

[Left Side]

I agree with Scott, don't get the book. I did, and it just wasn't worth it in my opinion. The chapter by Joe Kinney was the most worthwile by far.

I am sure your thumbs are plenty strong enough for a good set, watch the videos carefully and go to chat sometime, anybody in there will be glad to walk you through it and help out.

And finally, take the set very seriously, be meticulous, and the gripper properly every time, no matter what gripper you are holding. This will make your set stronger everytime you train. And a strong set is gold.

Have fun.

[TelegraphKey]

THanks, guys, for your tips. Thanks for the caution on the IM Grippers book. I had a hunch it wasn't as detailed as other stuff around here, so now I will just focus on trying to read up more around here.

As for the 2-hand grip machine, I would like to get one eventually. Obviously the Beef Builder is much less exorbitant than IM's, BUT I don't want to use credit card, I prefer to send a money order, but it looks like the Weightlifter's Warehouse only allows internet credit card orders?

But man, ever since Sybersnott wrote that the other day, the idea has been growing obsessively in my head about how much I want a 2-hand grip machine...

I will try to find out as much info as I can about setting. Thanks!

Oh, another question: In IM's catalog, for their GRG grip machine, they claim they have a special "adjustment" or whatever that allows for smoother gripping & handling more weight & closing tighther, than other machines. How valid is this claim of theirs?

Edited December 20, 2005 by TelegraphKey

[TelegraphKey]

P.S. I don't have time right now to research it, so can someone please help me understand what "FILING a gripper" is, why you do it, and how you do it?