Rolling Thunder Rules

[jimwylie1]

Ironmind changed the rolling thunder rules back in 2001 (I Think!) so that the thumbless grip was not allowed for World Record attempts. I believe Jan Bartl had the record at the time, for which he used a thumbless grip.

I've never really understood why the thumbless grip was banned? I for one find it harder than the conventional method.

What does everyone think? Were Ironmind right to ban the thumbless grip?

[underdawg]

If I remember correctly the rule was changed to prevent someone from resting the handle in the crook of their wrists. If it is a thumbless lift with the palm and fingers still on the handle I agree with you, it's much harder.

[DuTCH]

It's definitely harder, at least for me, thumbless. So as far as I'm concerned, it's not a problem Like dawg said, IM didn't want cocking (?) of the wrist.

[deaner]

I think if you use thumbless and cock your wrist you would gain faster and could put up bigger numbers because your wrist is taking more of the load and the lift is meant to be a grip exercise. Just my opinion, I suck at it either way.

[Jedd Johnson]

Like underdawg said, I could see people in a contest resting it in their wrist, so i say make them use their thumb, and leave the thumbless for training purposes only...

-Jedd-

[supermagnamon]

It's hard either way. I saw Odd Haugen did a RT at his house when I was working out with him, Meatloaf and Mike. I ended up doing 182lbs for the day and he did about 240lbs. Odd said that the 182lbs was a warm up and I'm like omg, he didn't just said that. lol.

[TelegraphKey]

Okay, I'm a newbie but I haven't seen RT discussed much yet before here so I'll ask this:

How is the RT lift supposed to be performed? I'm basically pulling up with the back of my hand facing the sky & just squeezing like hell to pull it up. (I finally figured out that actually concentrating on overall deadlift form, instead of just bending over & using only upperbody, seems to help a little.) But is there any way of getting the hand more to the side, to get fingers more underneath? Or is that the whole point of removing the cocked-wrist rule, so you can't get your fingers underneath it?

[CMunger]

THumb could also be (ab)used to help support the pointer finger unnaturally as well. No idea if/how much it would help, but I was contemplating how it goud be advantageous. Try reachign your thubm over to assist the pointer once and see if it helps.

[mobsterone]

Having spoken to Randall on the phone about this very subject a few weeks before the CoC event I know 100% why the thumbless was dropped.

1) cocking of the wrist means it's not a test of grip strength for which is was devised. JIm and I are well aware of the Horne man wrist strength. After he tired his wrist trying, again, to wrist curl his Inch replica who did the most on the new RT handle? Me.

2) it's meant to be a test of grip strength not how clever we are at bending the rules (see what might be termed over-setting of grippers for an example). Ditto this - I've competed a number of time and set my grippers a little - to get the pinkie on and in a nice position - but, for example, those that beat me at the European this year did some mad stuff (fully within the rules mind) I wouldn't dream of doing.

[jimwylie1]

After he tired his wrist trying, again, to wrist curl his Inch replica who did the most on the new RT handle? Me.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here? Are you just pointing out that you lifted the most on the rolling thunder the day after comp? Thanks for that.

2) it's meant to be a test of grip strength not how clever we are at bending the rules (see what might be termed over-setting of grippers for an example). Ditto this - I've competed a number of time and set my grippers a little - to get the pinkie on and in a nice position - but, for example, those that beat me at the European this year did some mad stuff (fully within the rules mind) I wouldn't dream of doing.

I don't really see how performing the lift with a thumbless grip is cheating? I would imagine the majority of people (me and mob included) can lift less on with the thumbless grip. It's because we have weak wrists in relation other who are better at the thumbless lift. I like to think that the rolling thunder was created in the spirit of challenge dumbbells, like the Inch bell. I'm don't think that Mr Inch wouldn't have refused to acknowledge your lift just because you use a thumbless grip...!

Thumbless actually levels the playing field out. Thumb-over gives the larger handed individual a massive advantage over a smaller handed competitor.

[TelegraphKey]

How is it even possible to do thumbless without cocking the wrist?

[mobsterone]

Jim reread your second paragraph and my first and take yer head out of yer butt I thought you'd know why I typed what I did without me having to spell it out. I did the most cos David had tired his wrist and Strossen changed the rules cos he wanted a test of HAND strength. That's all of the hand. Sheesh just email him and ask. It's no good whining you don't like his rules anymore than me doing the same of any of the competition we've entered. We know the rules, we work with 'em, we do our best.

I've never complained about the credit card rule on grippers and, to the best of my knowledge, nor have you. We work with that we have.

I've said why he changed the rules and that's all there is. So if you wanna carry on doing it thumbless feel free. If it's an event, I'll train that way, if it's not I wont.

Telegraph it is possible - just harder. Cup the hand but squeeze with the fingertips.

[David Horne]

Randy's event, Randy's rules. Whateva!

Actually Jim is doing his lifts normal style and doing very well. He's after you Steve

David

[gazza]

I personally think if Jim was to train on the inch and rolling thunder only he could give the MDB a whirl.

[mobsterone]

I chatted to Jim via MSN yesterday and he brought this up. While I have always had a half decent RT number I never felt that there was that much of a carry-over it being a revolving handle. He did, however, say he'd be up for a bite at some point. Be nice to get another Brit on the very small list.

[Wade Gillingham]

I chatted to Jim via MSN yesterday and he brought this up. While I have always had a half decent RT number I never felt that there was that much of a carry-over it being a revolving handle. He did, however, say he'd be up for a bite at some point. Be nice to get another Brit on the very small list.

←

I was there in 2000 when Bartl set the world record with a thumbless grip. He did 265.4 (weighed) and missed 280. Randy asked me, and others, what we thought about the thumbless grip. I told him I didn't like it because it changed the movement to a wrist lift. He changed the rules and the next year Bartl did 258.5 left handed using his thumb (his right wrist was injured).

I have had the displeasure of watching hundreds of people try to cheat with the RT while working the GNC booth. You would be amazed at what people try. Making them wrap their thumb eliminates a lot of the ways to cheat.

[joeyg]

my hands are on the smaller, the lift is very tough for me.

I do better thumbless.

It's not like strossen is going to come to my house and yell at me for not using my thumbs

[foggymountainmuscle]

I always thought the entire point of the revolving handle was to prevent the extra weight you can put up with wrist flexion and that it's just a raw squeez. With the thumbless grip, I just don't see the point of the revolving handle.

[mobsterone]

True which is why the rule change made it back to how it was always meant to be.

[Mikael Siversson]

With a regular grip, the lift is relatively predictable as competitors with long hands will dominate (no wonder the lift is very much favoured by individuals with large hands in this discussion).

With a thumbless grip (while holding the handle in the palm) it will favour people with strong wrists.

I can't see how favouring hand size rather than specific strength is in any way optimal for competitions. Its a bit like having an event where the competitors use their strength to push their hand through a hole with a narrow diameter. In general guys with a smaller hand will always do better than guys with a large hand. Those with very large hands will not even be able to push their hand through the hole at all, much like a competitor with a very small hand will not be able to lift a handle at all once its diameter reaches a critical size.

We used to have RT in the LGC competition. I never felt superior beating guys with a shorter hand in this event.

I did, however, feel very inferior being beaten by David Horne who has shorter hands than myself.

[bencrush]

Nice discussion guys. I suck at the RT either way, but especially with the thumbless variation. For me doing it without the thumb takes a good 30-40 pounds off my lift. My hat's off to anyone who can lift 200+ with either style.

[mobsterone]

I've met Randall, who made the rules, and he's small and ergo small handed. Wade is big with bigh hands - he agreed with Randall. I also grow weary of the 'I've got small hands please feel sorry for me'. Get over it, wotk with what you have. Plus I never mentioned competition.

[jimwylie1]

Mobster, competition is what this topic is about.

The Rolling thunder and thick bar exercises are not a good competition lifts as they don't allow fair comparisons to be made between the competitors grips strength. It is impossible to compare the lifts a small handed individual to that of a large handed competitor. There is a clear advantage.

[mobsterone]

Given that you're a good mate of David ask him if he remembers something he said which I've quoted a bunch of times.

...that we have differing events in our grip competition to even out the advantages of big hands and little hands. That we test all of the athletes grip strength not just one aspect...

Kevin Fultons events are mainly thick bar and so while good fun don't test the full gamut of grip. In any competition there will be lifts I do well and you do well. They wont always be the same lifts. As for thick bar not being fair... please. We have both competed in many IG comps where the 3.5-inch handled dumbbell, the Rolling Thunder and the 2" thick barbell deadlift and other events have been contested. I don't recall it being a problem then - but now it is? It's a problem now cos you're currently enjoying both thumb over and thumbless and want recognition for a good lift done either way.

As for arguing the toss with me - I neither own the RT not set the rules. I stated what I had discussed with Randall. Type an email with your longer than me fingers and whine at him and see if he changes his mind. Last time I competed thumbless I did ok - it was either me or you in second just behind David using an old handle. Last time I competed thumb over using a new handle (GGC 2004) I won.

PS: Pulled 115-kilos (in plates) today easy (thumb over)

[jimwylie1]

It's a problem now cos you're currently enjoying both thumb over and thumbless and want recognition for a good lift done either way.

Mobster, I don't require and recognition and am not training thumbless. Also, I don't think my fingers are any longer than yours. Last time we comapred hand size your hands were slightly bigger.

Last time I competed thumbless I did ok - it was either me or you in second just behind David using an old handle.

That comp was IG 2001. Both thumb over and thumbless were allowed in that comp. Here are the results

PS: Pulled 115-kilos (in plates) today easy  (thumb over)

That's very good. Not the 120kg that you promised on MSN the other night though