Grip feats, contests and records.

[Allman]

It seems there are several grip feats that most are interested in here on the gripboard. Number one seems to be closing grippers. I believe anyone who can close a number 3 CoC qualifies as having an exceptional grip. When I look at the list there are about 60 men who  have achieved this feat. If we add the others who have not been listed for one reason or other that list would be many more. I believe anyone who has tried to close those grippers appreciates what a feat it is. They also salute Big Joe Kinney for the # 4.

Then I read a lot about that famous Inch Dumbbell. I wonder why it still generates so much interest? Could it be that anyone lifting it is regarded as having a very strong grip? Of course, since many can lift it off the floor there seems to be a race to see who can lift it overhead. I rather doubt that such a feat is a pure grip one, impressive though it may be.

Surely the Rolling Thunder, which has the same diameter as the Inch Dumbbell, is more available and can be used to compare grip strength with others.

We then find lesser interest in bending spikes, pinch lifting and things like the Farmer's Walk. I suppose there will be interest in whatever events most people are interested in.

Does the contest in England that David Horne is holding qualify as a default world championship in grip lifting? I don't see many international grip contests in the events we have described here. It seems that there is some international interest in this event. If competitors enter from Canada, the rest of Europe, and the rest of the world it surely will be a step in that direction.

Can anyone tell me what the current world records or bests are in the various grip events.  

A question to David Horne. Where is the contest being held and will the competitors be drug tested?

[David Horne]

The competition will be held in Stafford. There will not be drug testing.

David

[Guest 115-1005574997]

Allman

It seems a sad reflection on our sport that so few people are prepared to compete or organise competitions, especialy outside the UK.  People should realise that David competes, judges, organises, comentates and demonstartes all the lifts at all the competitions he holds.  what other sport would you see such selfless comitment?  If no one reports a lift, in competition, greater than that achieved at a contest run by Dave then it must be a world record.

[Kevin Fulton]

The "world record" issue is somewhat controversial and clouded.  I do not have all the answers but I do have some insight I'd like to share.  

It is impossible to claim "official world records" unless they are done under strict guidelines as outlined by a governing body or organization.  The key word is "official".  This also means that an "official world record" may not be the most ever done by someone.  One good example is Paul Anderson.  He reportedly squatted 1200+ but it is not a world record.  However it is likely the most anyone has squatted, assuming it was to legal depth.

Competitions that involve grip events or strongman events etc. are generally not very standard.  Many times various implements and apparatus are used that are not standardized.  This makes it difficult to establish records.  For example a plate pinch can be done with a wide range of thickness in the plates.  Bars vary in diameters, and deadlifts are done from various heights.  In some competitions judging is strict, in others it is not at all.   I've seen people lifting on 2" bars that were really only 1 1/2 ".  I'm just pointing out the dicrepancies that exist in the real world.

All these discrepancies do not really matter within a competition as long as all competitors use the same equipment.  But it is a real problem if one is concerned about claiming records and comparing themselves to others outside the competition.  The only answer to that is to have an organization like the IGC to regulate grip records under strict conditions.

Our grip contests have all been sanctioned by the USAWA/IAWA.  As far as I know, they are the only organization that has records for any grip events. An exception might be a sanctioning body connected with the rolling thunder contest that is held annually.  Therefore we have been able to establish numerous national and world records in some of the events.  Also many of these records were established from The British Grip Championships in the earlier years when they were IAWA sanctioned.  That does not mean that these records are the most that has ever been done, in some cases they no doubt are, in other cases they clearly aren't.  I believe the organization is only about 20 years old so their records only reflect competitons in recent history.  In all cases, the records are official national and/or world records within these organizations. Nothing more, nothing less.  If other organizations recognize records, then there will  be duplicate sets of records.  It is already this way in powerlifting.  I'm not implying that this is necessarily good or bad, just the way it is.  It is however very difficult to lay claim to a record just because you believe no one else has exceeded your feat.  How do you know that?  Not everyone is hooked up to the net and widely publisizing their feats.  THeir may be other Joe Kinney's or Steve Justa's out there that have done more but it has gone un-reported.  Would Vince Basile be a good example?  Just kidding... Also in the days gone by, the old time strongmen did some incredible feats that will probably never be exceeded.  However it  is difficult in many cases to separate fact from fiction since records were not always kept and documentation is sketchy.   Herman Goerner has some of the most impressive grip feats in history.  Most are not "official world records" but this does not make them any less impressive in my book as long as I can be realatively sure that they are authentic.  

The one problem I see with the USAWA/IAWA is that they do not recognize all the grip events that most of us enjoy and use in our competitons.  In most of our grip contests, only about half of the events are recognized by the organization.  So we can only break or set records in those lifts.  These are generally the thick bar lifts, plate pinches, one hand deadlifts, finger deadlifts and a few others.  The rules are clear on these events regarding the dimensions of plates and bars that are used as well as the technique that may be used in lifting the weight.  I doubt that the IAWA is interested in recognizing more specialized grip events, as they are an all-round lifting organization. That is where an organization like the IGC would be useful for establishing standards and records in the grip world.

I guess my point to this long post is that "world record" and the "most ever done" are not the same in many cases and the latter is difficult to lay claim to except possibly in your own mind and others that you can convince, as Vince Basile demonstrated so well a few months ago.  Which gains an athlete more credibility?  I don't have a clear cut answer, I think it depends....

Kevin

[Allman]

Well said, Kevin. I wonder when the GRIP people will have the official organization and have official contests. Well, we are all waiting for the IGC to come up with their proposals. At the moment it appears that David Horne is organizing what appears to be an international contest and good for him. It remains to be seen how many competitors will show up to have a go. That is a step in the right direction. Anyone wanting to compare their efforts to others can compete and see how they go. Sometimes great things have a modest start.

It seems to me there are a lot of very strong grip enthusiasts and having international, standardized contests would be a good thing for everyone concerned.

Will we see the grip competitors voting on things such as thicknesses of bars and events included? The current international odd lift associations do not seem too interested in sorting out the problems in the grip events. For example, what is to be the thickness for pinch gripping? What diameter should a vertical bar lift be? How is squeezing grip to be measured? How do we make lifting thick bars fair to different hand sizes? There really are many issues here.

[Guest 115-1005574997]

thats what the IGC promised to deliver.

Its a poor reflection on our sport when only three people in the world are prepared to run contests.  These people deserve respect for their effort and understanding of the organising headaches that are involved. So until the IGC or something else standardises equipment, only prase and support should be given to anyone who administers a competition.

[Tyrannosaurus Dave]

When powerlifting became an official AAU sanctioned sport in 1965, the rules took up less than half a page of Muscular Development magazine.  After all, everybody knew what a good squat looked like.  When I let my national referee's card expire in 1990, the rules took up a book of over 80 pages, and nobody knew what a good squat looked like.  And there are now about 20 federations, each with a list of records by age, weight, gender, state and nationality by their own sets of rules.  We started out having small contests to show each other what we could do and celebrate superior performances. Now, contests involve hundreds of lifters and many fine lifts  get swamped in the meet results.  Judging irregularity, excessive equipment and supplement abuses dominate the PL landscape as championships proliferate and encourage lifters to find an edge.

So here is the point for the IGC: let's not go down this path.  We may not be clear on all the great lifts of the past, but we are getting better on documenting current achievements.  Maybe we will even get standardized to some useful extent.  More competition would be a good thing and on a given day, everyone will know what a good lift should be.  But to get absorbed in world records and "best ever" accomplishments leads to dissent and controversy.  I have already seen a lot of "lawyering" on this board about whether lifts are as good as something done at another time or place.  Maybe it is a good thing that the IGC is taking some time to get organized.  Too conservative?  Maybe, but I can wait to get it right.

[Allman]

When people stop trying to close difficult grippers or lift the Inch Dumbbell I will believe what you say.

[mobsterone]

Not one of the posts here on this topic has a real suggestion as to the answers they claim they wait for. Scott says, rightly, he loves competing. Allman and others (Scott included) say they are waiting for the IGC. Don't!

1. Pinch Grip: see other posts

2. Vertical Bar: 1" or 2"? How long should the bar be? Knurling or not? Allow the bar to touch or not?

3. Pick a lift, break it down into its movements, think about the equipment, workout all the details. Post it here. Let Mr Black et al take the best thought out suggestions, have them become the standard.

Job done  

Make a point of helping rather than waffle. Quick thought. In any meeting you have ever been in there is a 'barrack room lawyer, the vote for anything mob, a 'natural leader' and then someone who gets the job done. Just for a change be that person and the leader and the lawyer. Stop heating the rooms air up by waffling. And don't get all annoyed at my posting its said to move things along I hope...