World Comparison For 2-hand Pinch

[Jedd Johnson]

Guys,

I realize we do not use the same exact equipment or use the same rules every time there is a two-hand pinch event, but I would like to discuss the possibility of keeping a world comparison record list for top performances in this lift.

Although standardization has it's values, I also think it is good to compare on slightly different apparati. There IS value in this also. For instance, in strongman, they maintain a world record list for the log lift, and I do not think they use the same log every time (correct me if I'm wrong). I do not even know if they use the same diameter log all the time..... In the Olympic lifting, they do not use the same bar everytime (although I know they are still very strict about measurements, etc). In track races, they do not run on the same course all the time (although I know, again, they are still very strict.)

Mikael has shown to be a very good statistics manager. His providing of lists has raised my interest on this.

If it were compiled, there could easily be asterisks placed on the numbers that were done on non-standardized equipment.

I am interested in hearing what other guys think. Let us know.

-Jedd-

[mobsterone]

You're only saying that cos you did a good 'un at the GGC ha ha

[climber511]

Jedd - you might consider rough measurement classes. An example would be the width of 2 plates and the width of 3 plates etc. I know plates vary but just a guideline. The two examples I've used as training are the two hand pinch on 2 - 45# plates and the 2 hand pinch on 3 - 25# plates. Add a pipe and extra weight and you have something almost everyone has the equipment to try. Good idea.

[Clay Edgin]

Good idea. Keeping track of the width of the implement being pinched would be helpful too

[supermagnamon]

Good idea.  Keeping track of the width of the implement being pinched would be helpful too

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i agree with Clay.

[Zakath]

Good idea.  Keeping track of the width of the implement being pinched would be helpful too

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i agree with Clay.

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Actually I don't think width should be the greatest factor considered, what is more important is the gripping surface of the implement lifted since pinch is a "friction lift". And if I got this straight I think at least the LGC uses a certain standarized implementation with variable width. Mikael Siversson, Arne Persson or David Horne knows more about it.

EDIT: Sorry, I was a little out of date... http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtop...96entry169496

Edited May 31, 2005 by Zakath

[Clay Edgin]

Yes, many of the contests in Europe use a standardized implement, but here we still just use two 45lb plates and their thickness together ranges from 2.5" to 4"! I don't know how much of a pain in the ass it would be to categorize lifts done on different implements, but I suspect it could be done relatively easily.

[climber511]

I think it will be easier to do and give us a much bigger database using standard items that almost everyone will have access to. We all can find 2-45s, a piece of pipe and some additional weight to add on. Sure each plate will have different friction but that's already going on in all the pinch feats we do. Blobs are different, plates are different, etc both in shape, width and roughness of surface. If we ever get down to truely having a competition, we can have the exact same plates ( or block, etc) used by all the competitors at that time. If you look at the European results, they are from the contests - I'm pretty sure everyone trains on what they have and then competes on the special setup.

[Jedd Johnson]

Here's another reason why standardized equipment has a poor chance of catching on in the US.

- - The way I understand it, if we were to have one of these pinch apparatus here for GGC, we would have to allot time for people to "calibrate" it, or rather, choose their favorite setting, since it is adjustable, right? And we don't have that kind of time this year.

I really don't think we are going to get one of those.

As far as friction goes, I think it can be said that the pinch plates used at GGC are your average plates. They are not rusty. I have felt many more that have much more machining done to them and/or blemishes that would yield a much better pinch.

I'd really be anxious to hear what some of the other European athletes think about this proposal.

-Jedd-

[Florian Kellersmann]

I agree with Jedd. I like the idea of a record list for two hand pinch. Of course we don’t use the same equipment in all competitions, but I think, you can lift similar weights on the adjustable pinch grip device and on “normal” non-rusty plates. The results are nearly comparable in my opinion.

The organizer of the grip-competition bears the responsibility that “normal” and non-manipulated or extreme rusty plates are used.

As for me besides the competition and the date of the lift we can also add the used device to the list.

Flo

[the swiss]

Agreed, but it is the same problem with the LGC replicas having different seasonning and texture: look at Johan's 171kg VS his 140kg (I think) at the last LGC: both on a LGC bar!!

[Mikael Siversson]

Agreed, but it is the same problem with the LGC replicas having different seasonning and texture: look at Johan's 171kg VS his 140kg (I think) at the last LGC: both on a LGC bar!!

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Their texture is actually very similar, or rather identical I would say, having two bars myself. Unlike the rest of you, I can test this by doing back to back lifting. In fact, unless cleaned just prior to a competition (which was unfortunately the case at LGC XIII) there is no difference under normal conditions (with a bit of chalk on the bar). If you compare the results in v-bar at IG 2004 with those of the 2004 Euro for the same lifters you can see (and calculate) that there is no significant difference (assuming a constant strength level for the lifters). The average difference in weight lifted by these guys is so small in relation to the number of lifters that it is, from a strict statistical point of view, insignificant.

The v-bar used in the last LGC had unfortunately been cleaned just prior to the competition which would make it rather slippery.

Moreover, one cannot compare lifts done at peak strength in practise with competition lifts. Some get much stronger once they step onto the platform, whereas others get much weaker.

A normal fluctuation on a LGC v-bar would be up to 10 kg (e.g. 130-140k). If you clean a LGC v-bar just before the comp., which I have done myself in the past, you would lift about 10-15k less. Some lifters would gain up to 10k in competition from the adrenaline surge, while others would drop 10k because of lack of mental strength.

Lifter X is having a bad day (130k), is lifting with a v-bar that was just cleaned from magnesium (we are now down to 115-120) and his legs starts to shake once he enters the platform (ups, we landed on 105-110k).

Lifter X is having a good day (140k), is lifting with a properly seasoned v-bar (we arestill at 140k) and gets a huge adrenaline boost on the platform (and we land on 150k).

Once again, a flawed example that proves nothing. Johan was also actually very close at pulling 150k. Had it high up but dropped the weight.

[the swiss]

ok, I do understand and agree with your arguments.

a little question about rust though:

On my own bar, which I rarely clean, I find that after some time a little bit of rust starts appearing under the chalk (as was the case of the european's bar). Obviously this has as a consequence that chalk will stick on the bar better. So assuming the quantity of rust under enough chalk does not influence the performance, a properly seasonned bar would be a bar with a sufficient layer of chalk sticked to it? and in this case it would not be a problem to let the bar rust a little?

[Mikael Siversson]

ok, I do understand and agree with your arguments.

a little question about rust though:

On my own bar, which I rarely clean, I find that after some time a little bit of rust starts appearing under the chalk (as was the case of the european's bar). Obviously this has as a consequence that chalk will stick on the bar better. So assuming the quantity of rust under enough chalk does not influence the performance, a properly seasonned bar would be a bar with a sufficient layer of chalk sticked to it? and in this case it would not be a problem to let the bar rust a little?

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My v-bar do not have any rust yet and they feel much the same as the one used at the Euro comp. I think however, that the bars should be stored in a dry place in order to avoid heavy rusting which would eventually make the lifts easier. The magnesium itself absorbs moisture so keeping it covered in magnesium would in itself prevent rusting to some extent even if it is not stored in a very dry place. In a competition, chalk builds up quickly so that the surface will become very uniform from one competition to another and from one v-bar to the another replica (if not tempered with beforehand). Just leave the bar without cleaning it and try to store it in a dry place. Then it will work just fine in competitions.

I have found the v-bar to be less sensitive to humidity than a pinch set up as my results vary less on the v-bar than they do in the pinch.

As an example I can present my last few v-bar sessions with my left hand so you can get an idea of the variation from one workout to another.

14 April 137.5

22 April 135

30 April 132.5

8 May 127.5

17 May 135

26 May 135

[FrankyBoy]

My vbar which I own since august last year hasn't any rust on it either.

I'm storing it in my office which is my training room also.

[FrankyBoy]

Btw:

I would love to see a combined list for the 2-hand pinch results.

For me the used pinch width isn't important.

[Mikael Siversson]

Btw:

I would love to see a combined list for the 2-hand pinch results.

For me the used pinch width isn't important.

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The Euro set up seems to be more slippery than what I would regard as average plates. The weight went down for most of the LGC competitors, when we switched to the Euro standard, typically by about 5 per cent. Does not really matter I suppose if competitors in the US do not feel an urge to compare their results in a truly meaningful way with the best Europeans in the pinch. I do personally not feel much of an urge either to include results done on non-standardised equipment in my updates of the lists. Does not take a mental giant though to write up a list with whatever content one wishes to include.

[Jedd Johnson]

Does not take a mental giant though to write up a list with whatever content one wishes to include.

No kidding. However, what's the sense in making a list that the people who matter doesn't think means anything or a list that is going to be picked apart because the lifts are not all done on the same equipment.

-Jedd-

[Mikael Siversson]

Does not take a mental giant though to write up a list with whatever content one wishes to include.

No kidding. However, what's the sense in making a list that the people who matter doesn't think means anything or a list that is going to be picked apart because the lifts are not all done on the same equipment.

-Jedd-

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In friction lifts it is my opinion that a list becomes rather meaningless. There is just too much difference. Just consider Vince's 200lbs one hand pinch on his slick stainless steel apparatus. Why not create a US standard where someone takes the charge and manufacture discs from the same sheets of steel or iron. The Euro standard is based on two 6mm steel discs. Whats inbetween (ie rubber spacers or whatever one wishes to use) is not very important as long as the discs are parallell. It would be much cheaper to distribute standardised iron or steel discs within the US than to order them from the UK.

[Vince Basile]

In friction lifts it is my opinion that a list becomes rather meaningless. There is just too much difference. Just consider Vince's 200lbs one hand pinch on his slick stainless steel apparatus.

Hi Mikael. My lift was 92.5 kg. Come along to my gym and have a go if you are in Sydney.

Yes, the surface makes a huge difference in pinching. Nick came up with the idea of using skateboard tape for two-hand pinching and I saw him lift 135 kg and I got 145 a couple of weeks later and 150 off the floor. However, some competitors had tears from grit and we were advised that this surface is unacceptable for health reasons.

Those who have lifted the Ironmind 3 inch painted pinch block know that the painted surface feels very slippery. So painted surfaces are out. They make us look weak!

If we are going to use ordinary steel in grip contests then chalk has to be used, too, and that introduces a variable when chalk buildup and moisture remain on the bars. I suppose you could have the bar cleaned after each attempt but that causes dust in the air and is time consuming.

It is possible to make two-handed pinch blocks out of stainless rectangular hollow sections. It would be easy to make these blocks and then the contests can be deadlifting these blocks a certain height off the floor. No chalk should be allowed on the blocks and this would make the event standardized for all. If you could find a supplier who had 2 X 5 inch stainless RHS then you could just cut sections about 600 mm long and cap the ends then weld bars on each end to enable additional plates to be added. A 2 X 4 inch section would work for most people as a training tool. You could use a galvanized section to train on but zinc soon tarnishes with sweat.

We have used the two-hand deadlift pinch in competition and it seemed fair to everyone.