Details on Apollon

[Roark]

Woody,

Last year at the Arnold, Mark pulled the Inch replica about chest high in a very crowded area, and said he thought he

could clean it. But to drop the bell in that area would have

been dangerous.

At first he tested the weight by just getting it off the floor-

and was told that he 'had not straightened his legs' - that's

when he pulled it chest high and nobody noticed his legs.

[mobsterone]

Yes I can see it now - Mr you're 350 lbs and you're way stronger than me but I'll cry if I have to hand over the (I think) $100.00. Tight sods.

Who or what was the comany/individual that decided not to hand over the cash? And was anyone else a winner?

[Roark]

I don't remember the company- they pulled the bell after

four men deadlifted it, so by the time I heard about it,

it was over. Talked to Mark afterwards though.

Does it not strike anyone else as interesting that Inch

supposedly could not find in '40 years' anyone to deadlift

the bell, but four men did last year at the Arnold, and

several of the Bengals football players did the first time they

tried (which means, it's fair to say, that members of other

NFL teams could deadlift it also)?

By the way, another interesting aspect of the Inch

situation is this question:

At what point in time did Inch begin to claim that he

had overheaded the 172, and not just deadlifted it?

From the beginning? Nope. One must be cautious in reading

later (retroactive) descriptions of events that happened

decades earlier, especially if the earlier (contemporary)accounts vary in significant details.

[Sybersnott]

Roark,

Man..... you are OBSESSED with this!  This is great!    

According to Inch, it took him six years of training before he could lift the bell overhead.  Do we agree on this?

Again..... what is the dispute about?  Whether or not he could press it overhead?  I thought there were more than enough witnesses that could verify Inch's claim.  Am I missing something?  Also, what about Kaz's lift?  From those pictures, it looks like he SWUNG the bell overhead, and did not press it overhead.  Now I'm really confused!!   :hehe  :hehe

[Roark]

It may too late for justice; it is never too late

for the truth.

For a moment for the sake of argument, let's say

that I have drawn the correct conclusion,that is,

that Inch never was able to clean and overhead the

172, but substituted one of the lighter bells and tricked

the onlookers. IF that is true, what should I do? Allow

the travesty to continue unchecked? Or try to prove my

position?

[RiotGrip]

Roark, If you have signifigant proof that Inch never could clean the bell with one hand, then by all means this should be made public.  However if you can't gather enough data to sufficiently disprove that fact, then I believe that Inch should get the credit for cleaning and pressing it.

[Roark]

The affirmative has the burden of proof. If I claim I can

clean and jerk with one hand the Inch bell, it is not up to

you to disprove it, it is up to me to provide proof. There is

no proof to support Inch's claim that I can find. There are

several claims, no proof.

Additionally, there is much discrepancy in what he claimed

regarding several aspects of his history with the bell, and

these appear to me to be significant discrepancies.

Explanations will be offered in Iron History on cyberpump,

so anyone who cares can check that site over the next few

months as relevant dates roll around. I will severly limit my

posting on the Grip Board regarding Inch and his bells.

By the end of the year, after these dates and events have been examined, my position will be explained as fully as I

am able. I cannot control the response to my offering, but,

and I truly mean this, if any counter-arguments wish to be

heard, they can be sent in and I will deal with them. Unless

I am living in a parallel universe, my case will be proved. This

is a promise: Never before, in any forum I am aware of, has

this situation been as closely examined as will be presented

on cyberpump. Sybersnott is right. I am obsessed with the

truth of this matter.

INCH 101: Part 1 begins Feb 8th.

[Roark]

Talked with Tom Lincir at Ivanko Barbell tonight. He is

making the 366 pound set of Apollon wheels that will be

used at the Arnold Strongman show Feb 24th.

He is NOT making a  second set that weighs 300 pounds.

So that blub at Arnold's website mentioning this second

set, must be referring to another source, because Tom is

not making it.

By the way, if anyone knows more about the history of

the barbell than Tom, I have never encountered him. Tom

has searched for and found international patents of various

aspects of barbells and dumbells, and has intriguing stories to

tell about product development, and mentioned names in

our conversation tonight- names I had never heard of. He

may not be able to attend the Arnold show because of other

business, but he hopes he can be there.

The replica Apollon wheels will be there though!

[terminator]

It's a shame that the guy with the burden of proof is well....dead.  Kinda tough to defend yourself at that point.  How come you don't subject some "living legends" to the same scrutiny?

[Roark]

Now that Inch is dead, all we have left is the record.

And his words. Shall we ignore all the contradictions?

Whenever Inch's claims have agreed with the other

supportive evidence, I have also given him credit. But

we are dealing with a man who would MIS-PERFORM a lift

simply to maintain a record in it! (he used two hands to

get a bent press to the shoulder but insisted that it be

called a one hand all the way bent press). This bothers

me, and perhaps I incorrectly assumed it would bother

lovers of strength history. It certainly bothered Aston

whose record was falsely surpassed.

Inch died far before I became interested in his story.

Does it also concern you that Inch apparently waited

until Saxon died to assert that Saxon failed to lift the

172? If not, why not?

Please remember that I began this study assuming, or

at least leaning toward the belief, that Inch lifted what

he claimed, when he claimed etc. I was intending to

simply tell that story.

I was ignorant of the meaning that four identical bells

existed and that switching to a lighter bell was going on.

As it turns out, I was extremely ignorant of many factors

regarding Inch and his bells. If I display the #4, then

secretly switch to the #1, should I get credit for closing

the #4? Apparently so, if I can die before that switch

becomes known, because it would then be improper to

challenge the claims of a dead man.

The fact that the record of events and recorded history,

and his own evolving tales took the story from its original

direction is whose fault?

Regarding why I do not address the claims of modern

lifting legends, who do you have in mind? If the situation

interests me perhaps I will, but my passion is for the

1880-1920 period. Like most people I only pursure what

interests me, such as the Apollon wheel lifting coming up

February 24th.

Years ago I had a 108 lb dumbell made with a 2" handle.

A huge football player tried to clean it and failed, and

became very upset with me when I mentioned this to

people who thought that the man would be able to lift it.

He asked me why I was telling people that. I said because it was true. Then I pointed to the bell on the floor and said 'There it is, clean it, and I will change my story.' He walked away.

Never fear truth.

A final thought. When newcomers arrive on the grip board

they are usually directed to the archives and back pages

because many of their questions have already been answered.

I realize many of you do not have the archives and back pages

of old magazines that I have access to. Perhaps you will read

the research on cyberpump that we will present over the

next few months. If so, welcome to my archives.

If not, you may be at the point I was before I began

all this study. If you wish to stay there, who am I to

meddle?

[RiotGrip]

Roark, I agree with you about the archives, and wish there were some way that we could have access to some of these things.  MY suggestion entails getting you a scanner, perhaps a small portion of proceeds from each grippage t-shirt could go to purchasing you a scanner with the purpose of posting some of the pictures and articles you have in your massive library of strength history.   I'm not sure how others on this board feel about that, but I'd gladly pay a buck or two extra for a shirt if I knew that I'd be able to see more pictures and articles about some of the old time greats.  If I stand alone on this proposition fine, but if others agree with me, then getting you a scanner is something we should consider.

[AP]

hear!!! hear!!

that is, i agree with riotgrip!

that's it roark, i'm shippn' you my life savings!

$32.03! now buy a scanner!

[Roark]

RiotGrip & AP,

Thanks for the offer, but the reason I do not have a

scanner is because I do not at this time want one. That

goes for a fax also.

I am a typewriter person in a computer age, as

wannagrip knows.

[Sybersnott]

Roark,

Does EYEWITNESS proof count as to whether or not Inch lifted the bell?  

You are so right about when to challenge a particular lift and when it was performed and whether or not it was legit lift.

Even Alan Calvert fell into this trap.  In his book, "The Truth About Weightlifting", he relates a story that's all too well known to me.  However, instead of naming the stongmen in the book, he calls them, "Lifter A" and "Lifter B".  With good reason - both "lifters" were still ALIVE at the time he published his book.  If the reader doesn't know who the writer is talking about, the writer is safe from all problems - both personally and financially.

Dead people can't sue (er, well maybe their families can).  To get the facts straight, you go directly to the horse's mouth.  If the horse is dead - NOW what do you do?   ???  ???

[Roark]

I have talked to involved people in other situations who

are not useful in recounting facts.

One man claims to have won best chest in the Mr. America.

In fact he was third in best chest. Magazine accounts show

this from the day of the event.

One man claimed he competed against Grimek a certain

number of times; I reminded him that he also competed on

another occasion. He strongly objected, and strongly insisted

he had not. Again, photos, and articles from the contest show

him competing. After I mentioned these photos and stories he

STILL DENIED being there!

One man insists he won best arms at the Mr. America. The

best arms was not contested the year he claims to have won it.

One Mr. Universe told me just before I measured Manfred

Hoerberl's arms that Manfred's arms could not possibly

measure more than 22" because they were not much larger

than his own arms. Manfred measured 26". The other man's

measured perhaps 19" in his prime.

So going to the source does not always help.

Frankly, I do not know how to interpret the meaning of your post, but if you mean that talking to Inch would have helped

clarify this situation, then who do you think muddled this

situation in the first place? The record (old mags and contemporary accounts) tell a far different tale than what

Inch retroactively recounted.

Inch did not get up on stage and say "I have four identical

dumbells that rage in weight by nearly one hundred pounds."

Eyewitness accounts? I have a photo of my Inch replica

sitting next to the original Inch. I can tell the difference.

But if you sat me in the front row of an auditorium and

brought one of the bells out on stage, I could not tell

if it was mine or the original. If I sat farther back, I could

distinguish less. Aston who knew that Inch had various

bells could not distinguish WHEN HE HAD HIS HANDS ON

THEM! (until he tried to lift them)

And if Aston did not know, what chance does a

spectator in row M have of knowing whether the bell on

stage weighs 75 or 172?

The eyewitnesses who watched Inch lift had the same

disadvantage that befell spectators when shot-loaded

bells were being lifted. They looked heavy, but how filled

were they? Inch 75 lb bell was hollow, but looked just like

the 172.

Consider all the variant stories going around about how Kaz

lifted the Inch replica that belongs to Bruce White! He

cleaned it with two hands, no wait, one hand. No he

Continentaled it with two hands, or was it one hand?

He pressed it, he jerked it. He put his free hand on a chair, no he put the hand on his knee. Where are all those eyewitnesses?

Sorry if I misunderstood your post.

[Guest baldy]

Joe, just a quick note to let you know that I look forward to reading your write-up on cyberpump about Inch. It is clear that you follow the same methods any other historian would. Some feel it is unfair, I feel it is just being accurate. If that means questioning a (somewhat dubious) legend, so be it. I am right with you. Like you, I don't believe in holding something as truth "just because".

Now, back to closing my #4... or was it my #1 that I ground down and stamped #4?  

[Sybersnott]

Roark,

There are questions that we may never get answers to.  You hit upon one with Inch and the 172 DB.... we may never know the real truth.

I've seen the Kaz pictures of him preparing to lift the Inch.  If you really study them - they say nothing of the actual attempt itself.  To further complicate matters, on the Tom Black site, Kaz is trying to lift a similiar bell like the Inch and FAILS miserably.  This is AFTER his well-known lift in Oct. 1990.  I would ask Kaz himself..... but he'd probably get mad at me and stomp me into the ground!  That and my health insurance doesn't cover getting crushed by a strongman!!  :p

[1stCoC]

I was told by a VERY creditable witness just how the Inch bell was lifted by Kaz . Then, once by a phonecall from Kaz and once with him in person the story was the same......The bell was lifted with one hand and boosted along the way with the leg. I did not ask or care how he elevated the bell as he is SO strong in his pressing that was not that hard a task for him.In his "day" I admired him for his strength and ferocity but now have the upmost respect for the really fine man he is and how he is trying to give back to the sport he loves so much. Long live da' Kaz!

[Roark]

So a Continental, not a clean.This is what I had also

heard.