Reds Bent

[austinslater]

Im curious who has bent reds with either the old terminator style or the double underhand. This isnt a knock on the double overhand just wanting to know who has done it with one of these styles. Thanks in advance.

Austin

[EricMilfeld]

My list is probably not complete, but the following have done it double underhand (in no particular order):

Shrug

Big Steve

Dave Morton

Dave Ostlund

With a reverse grip Jedd Johnson did it very convincingly. Dan Praydis does it... well, I guess he invented his own style - Dan Praydis Style!

I bent my first two Reds after obtaining a small kink via reverse grip (maybe 20 degrees or so). I don't really consider this a true reverse grip bend, though.

[kerbjr]

To those who bend Reds without DO , I believe this to be world class......Brett

[terminator]

I've done both ways also, with MUCH less padding than what is usually being used. There is way too much leverage being gained using thick leather in the lengths I've seen and been quoted, like a pipe.

[herc]

I have bent them double under, reverse grip and double over.

[Clay Edgin]

Pat, at AOBS didn't you use two pieces of 4"x7" leather per side, or four pieces altogether? And I think in the FBBC videos you used a couple pieces that were at least 4"x12". It seems like a lot of people are bending with suede or leather now and the dimensions of those pads are as small or smaller as the ones in your FBBC video. Not picking a fight, just asking for clarification.

On topic, I've bent a shiny red with the reverse grip once and would like to bend them underhand someday as well.

[bballdad]

I know all these guys that have bent reds underhand get huge kinks.

But what degree of kink underhanded would be considered an underhand bend?

A wobble, 20, 40, 60, 90 degrees?

[Bob Lipinski]

I have talked with an old time bender, and he told me he preferred to wrap nails so the thickness was around that of a barbell, although he said when he started out he just used a handkerchief.

He didn't seem to have any negative comments to say about the amount of padding used, and I used a single layer of suede (not folded), IM cordura folded in thirds, and a thin rag folded in half per side.

[CMunger]

I've done both ways also, with MUCH less padding than what is usually being used.  There is way too much leverage being gained using thick leather in the lengths I've seen and been quoted, like a pipe.

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You're not talking about that one funky picture in the Amidon/Morton article are you? Looks huge, but I asked them about it and that's just a distorted resized picture. Same wrap as everywhere else in there. I believe they use 4x10ish, same as I do (when I bend, that is). Doesn't seem big to me. I tried putting some cordura in to puncture-proof it, but it felt too big and loose to me. So the 4x10 is what I dig personally.

Edited February 11, 2005 by CMunger

[terminator]

Clay,

Here's your clarification. Even more important than the area of the leather is the thickness. There were two pieces each side, one 4 X 7 the other 4 X 3. The 4 X 3 was just to cover up some holes in the larger pieces. The suede I use is soft and flexible, and less than 1/16" thick. The stuff I used for the FBBC certs was even thinner and was about 4 X 8...fully wrapped the bar was less than 1" on the outside. Hell, I'd love to see what someone could do with those exact same pads.

You know me, and you've always known my position on this subject. You've also privately agreed with me on both hand placement and amount of padding making a huge difference to what someone can bend. Odd you should jump in at this point and try to question my AOBS bends and my FBBC bends. I haven't seen the "as small or smaller" pads folks are using that you are referring to, but I'd sure like to.

Are we clear?

Pat, at AOBS didn't you use two pieces of 4"x7" leather per side, or four pieces altogether?  And I think in the FBBC videos you used a couple pieces that were at least 4"x12".  It seems like a lot of people are bending with suede or leather now and the dimensions of those pads are as small or smaller as the ones in your FBBC video.  Not picking a fight, just asking for clarification.

On topic, I've bent a shiny red with the reverse grip once and would like to bend them underhand someday as well.

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[Clay Edgin]

Clay,

Here's your clarification.  Even more important than the area of the leather is the thickness.  There were two pieces each side, one 4 X 7 the other 4 X 3.  The 4 X 3 was just to cover up some holes in the larger pieces.  The suede I use is soft and flexible, and less than 1/16" thick.  The stuff I used for the FBBC certs was even thinner and was about 4 X 8...fully wrapped the bar was less than 1" on the outside.  Hell, I'd love to see what someone could do with those exact same pads.

You know me, and you've always known my position on this subject.  You've also privately agreed with me on both hand placement and amount of padding making a huge difference to what someone can bend.  Odd you should jump in at this point and try to question my AOBS bends and my FBBC bends.  I haven't seen the "as small or smaller" pads folks are using that you are referring to, but I'd sure like to.

Are we clear?

Almost.

So the leather you used at AOBS was 4x10, okay I get that. And the suede in the FBBC video was 4x8 and less than 1/8". My point is that what you're using isn't that far off from what everyone else is using. The suede that gamidon and porkbone have distributed to dozens of people on the board is 4.5" x 10" and is under 1/16" thick. Their suede is flimsy and pliable too, as is every other piece of suede I've handled. Are you saying that you're upset because people are using suede wraps nearly identical to yours except that they are .5" wider and 2" longer and claiming that they have an unfair advantage? That they're somehow using that extra 2" length to make all the bends way easier? That extra 2” isn’t even enough to wrap around the bar once.

I definitely won't sit here and tell you one thing by email while saying something else on the board, and my position on it is well known too. That would be hypocritical of me and I know you would call me on it. When you and Steve approached me after my first bend at GGC and asked how I can even keep my hands on the bar with such thick wraps (my famed "handlebars" as Big Steve calls them), my response was that these wraps were allowed so I was using them. I think everyone here will agree that having a thicker wrap makes the bend easier. In the end, those thick wraps hurt me because I couldn’t crush that 5.5” red down far enough for it to be legal.

I’m not questioning your AOBS bends because I was there and saw the nails being bent. What I’m questioning are the dimensions and material of the wraps you used and the hand placement on the bars. We've had several email discussions about the subject, yes. And each time I said that the only way people know how you bend is based on the pictures in the Gripboard Gallery from the AOBS dinner. Your hands were way off the ends, something you claim you never do except when you're tired. How many times did I mention that if you just posted a single picture or video where your hands are on the bar with the "proper" spacing according to you, that it would answer a lot of questions and possibly inspire others to do the same? I ended up going to the Dave Draper website to Dr. Ken's picture gallery and cross-posting a picture of you with your hand spacing. And I only found one "good" picture of the hand spacing; all the rest showed your hands way off the ends of the bar and your fists perfectly vertical when the bar is perfectly horizontal. Here are some examples:

http://www.davedraper.com/gallery/data/523/3511.jpg

http://www.davedraper.com/gallery/data/523/3525.jpg

The suede in your FBBC video looks longer than 8” too. When you’re rolling it up on your thigh it looks at least a few inches longer than that. Every wrap I’ve seen you with has been about an inch thick. If I’m wrong, please show me the video or picture that definitely proves me wrong and you know I’m big enough to admit it.

The one point I want to underscore is that I’m not “calling you out” or trying to diminish any of your achievements. I’ve gone through this post several times and tried to keep it as civil as possible to encourage a positive discussion and bring some things to light and to hopefully have you clarify further without things getting personal. Keeping in mind that we’re all using 10”x4.5” suede wraps that are the same thickness as yours, and some people have their hands out on the bar as far as you do in those pictures, show me (don’t tell me) what you’re doing differently.

[kerbjr]

Maybe it is just me but I do notice a point of diminishing returns in re to wrap thickness..After about 1 1/2 inches I begin to lose power, in fact my best bending has been done with wraps at about 1 1/8 inches. I tried 2 inches of wrap once or twice with less than optimum results....Good points Clay, and I for one appreciate your positive attitude...Brett

[EricMilfeld]

Brett, coincidentally my findings are identical to yours. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 to 1.25 inches works best for me as well.

The pictures posted by Clay are a good example of what I said in my defense of my bending style many months ago. And that is the fact that you can have your forefingers contacting eachother and still position your hands with knuckles facing eachother.

[gamidon]

If this is about stuff in my bending article let me clear a few things up.

1) The pics were resized to make them even when the PDF was created.

This distorted the pics. Look at the red nails and you will see that

they are huge and ovel. Some of the pics I use some new leather that

was not cut to size, I cut all the leather 4.5" thick in strips. I

used the fresh unused stuff to make it look nicer. I didnt realize

people would be so hyper critical of what I thought was just

instructional. Dave is pictured using the wraps that we use. You can

see they are not that big in his hands.

2) I wrote 3/32" or less because I thought that is how thick the

leather was. I never actually measured it. I did tonight and it was

less than 1/16" There are dozens of gripboarders who have my leather,

they can vouch for this.

3) I tried to write something positive and helpful. Hate to see it

is turning into this. I try to talk about using more wrists and the

advantages it gives you. I believe this. Anyone wants to try outbending me

on the ends of the bars go right ahead. I am game for anything as long as it

is fun. I am not getting paid for this crap.

Greg Amidon

[Mikael Siversson]

I think you were mainly defending yourself against my suggestion that folding makes bending less of an wrist exercise.

Regarding leather wrapping, do you guys ever re-wrapp the bar for the final crush-down (with each layer wrapping both legs in one go) for shorter stuff near your maximum?

What are your thoughts on this practise (re-wrapping) for competitions?

The pictures posted by Clay are a good example of what I said in my defense of my bending style many months ago.  And that is the fact that you can have your forefingers contacting eachother and still position your hands with knuckles facing eachother.

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[the swiss]

The way I have bent the red in the video posted by Frankyboy is with a thick leather pad. almost NO wrist strain with how I do it, although it is very challenging for me still (with my weak upper body). That is why I want to bend it O/U in the near future with the IM pads.

I think the problem with DO is that is very hard to make to difference, when using small padding, between:

- an awesome display of wrist strength and

- an awesome display of pain tolerance.

this is not meant as an attack to anyone, just a fact for those who consider doing it in competition.

[Mikael Siversson]

David,

O/U is that the old "Terminator style"?

The way I have bent the red in the video posted by Frankyboy is with a thick leather pad. almost NO wrist strain with how I do it, although it is very challenging for me still (with my weak upper body). That is why I want to bend it O/U in the near future with the IM pads.

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[EricMilfeld]

Wrong. I was correcting the error of the assertion that by having the forefingers contact eachother a rule could be made to prevent the leverages gained by the "push style". I've never quibbled over how much wrist involvement is required of the various techniques.

And yes, most of the time with pieces under six inches I'll rewrap just as you described to acquire the two inch minimum. I use only one piece of leather, though. I think it's fine.

I think you were mainly defending yourself against my suggestion that folding makes bending less of an wrist exercise.

Regarding leather wrapping, do you guys ever re-wrapp the bar for the final crush-down (with each layer wrapping both legs in one go) for shorter stuff near your maximum?

What are your thoughts on this practise (re-wrapping) for competitions?

The pictures posted by Clay are a good example of what I said in my defense of my bending style many months ago.  And that is the fact that you can have your forefingers contacting eachother and still position your hands with knuckles facing eachother.

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[OldGuy]

Who here can fully bend a red using only IM pads?

[the swiss]

Mikael: yes, old Pat style!

Actually I think double underhand is more elegant, but I hurt myself once with this style.

[Jeff Parker]

I just bent my first blue using the one hand over, one hand under style, and I will continue to use this style all the way through the red. I can use the IM pads just about as good as any other wrap, so I will be looking to certify on it in the future.

[VeGripper]

I wish I even had the ability to even discuss material length for making such huge and difficult bends! To me, bending a red with anything is outright fantastic, so I've never even thought of topics related to length of wraps.

Since I don't use leather (don't even wear the stuff) I've been working solely with the IM pads chalked up. A bit of a stab in the hands since padding is a bare minimum, but that's the only thing I plan on using!

VeGripper

[Mikael Siversson]

How can you tell the bar is perfectly horizontal (=straight?)? It looks to me that Pat is already some way into the bend. I can't see the bar in either of the two pictures. Having said that, I am not defending any of the current DO styles. I certainly prefered to see Pat bend with the reverse grip style.

Moderators, please do not delete this as I did not use the word I am not allowed to speak of on this board.

Clay,

; all the rest showed your hands way off the ends of the bar and your fists perfectly vertical when the bar is perfectly horizontal. Here are some examples:

http://www.davedraper.com/gallery/data/523/3511.jpg

http://www.davedraper.com/gallery/data/523/3525.jpg

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