Sean Dockery Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 I mentioned on the board back in October that I was embarking on an experiment. After 3 months I have some preliminary results. My thesis was that Grippers are evil and that a person can attain a no set #3 close without training the grippers specifically. To test this thesis, I have set up a very unscientific, uncontrolled experiment. I will train thickbar, pinch, and wrist strength avoiding the grippers for 3 months at a time. Then I will do a couple of volume sessions to "relearn" the gripper movement followed by a test day. I had my last training session with the grippers on 10/12/05 and did my first test day 1/18/05. My best performance before October 12th was a Table No Set attempt at my Supermaster missed by 1/8". On January 9 and 16th, I performed 1 TNS single every minute for 90 minutes with my #2. On January 18th, I tested my strength on my Supermaster and missed 5 Table No Set closes by a whisker each time. "A whisker" means that I was unable to tell if the gripper was closed or not. I have returned to my thickbar, pinch and wrist training and will do another test in 3 months. I embrace the flawed nature of this experiment, and want to note several problems with it. 1) Am I average? I would say yes, but we have seen guys who are average in other strength areas be gifted in grip. I have seen zero big jumps in strength and would like to point out that my one claim to grip fame was achieved after over 18 months of concentrated training. 2) Can we extrapolate this to big grippers? We simply don't know. If the Lord's willing, I'll find out. 3) Could my gains be attributed to the layoff and not the training? My test day in another 3 months should shed some light here. There is one very interesting/encouraging thing I'd like to point out: I seem to have gained strength at the close of the gripper movement without touching grippers. We'll see where that goes over the course of the next year or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austinslater Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Doc, Great report! Ive faded out of my similar experiment due to injuries and an armwrestling tournament coming up but I had similar results with my left hand and saw an increase in my crush for sure. Looking forward to future installments on how your experiment is going. Austin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foggymountainmuscle Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 (edited) Sean, maybe you should change your thesis to not working crush. Even outside of grippers, you can do plier lifting and holding two sledge hammers together, unless you plan on implimenting these type of exercises to see how they improve gripper performance. And also, what is your main goal in your pinch training? Will you be trying to increase the size of your thumb pad, or are you trying to observe benifits solely from increased thumb strength? Also, will you be doing 2 finger and 1 finger pinching with the idea of strengthening the figures in first knuckle area as well? Edited January 30, 2005 by foggymountainmuscle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Edgin Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Sean, I can relate to your experience. When training for GGC, I laid off grippers and bending and focused primarily on my pinch and thickbar work for about two months. When it came to start squeezing grippers again, I noticed I had made some definite gains in that department after I got use to closing grippers again. I just used the Trainer to get my hands used to the motion of closing grippers again a few weeks before the contest and then did a couple gripper workouts before flying back to PA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Dockery Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 Mike, Thanks for pointing out the unprofessional nature of my experiment. I can't even get my thesis worded correctly! The background idea is that if a trainee develops insane hand strength via pinch, thickbar, and wrist work, he/she will not need to touch grippers outside of the random 'Hmm, let's see where I am." session, and will be closing as big (if not bigger) grippers as our friendly neighborhood KTA trainees. Clay, I'm glad to hear that others have tried this route. My greatest hope is to weaken the party line, "To be good at grippers, you must train grippers." Torsion Spring Grippers are the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danegarreau Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Very intresting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Clay, I'm glad to hear that others have tried this route. My greatest hope is to weaken the party line, "To be good at grippers, you must train grippers." Torsion Spring Grippers are the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man. ← No disrespect intended, but aren't you contradicting yourself when say that you're trying to weaken the party line, "to be good at grippers, you must train grippers" but then openly admit that you're going to do volume sessions to relearn the gripper movement? I think to prove your point you need to not touch the grippers at all, other than testing on them. I interpret "to be good at the grippers, you must train grippers" as you must have the feel/technique down, which you're only going to get with the actual grippers. I've never interpreted it as other crush training is useless in closing grippers. Even if you change your thesis to "you don't need to work crush to close grippers" I still think you should nix the volume training or your experiment is invalid. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Sean, have you been doing any heavy holds with a one inch bar, or any similar movements? How thick of a handle have you been using for thickbar work? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Dockery Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 (edited) Jad,I suppose that would depend on your definition of "train". In my unscientific thinking, 2 volume sessions and a test session is not training the grippers. At the very least, that is not training the grippers as is usually understood here. You do make an excellent point. This would never pass for serious research. I have no control group. My sample is too small. There are far too many uncontrolled variables. Perhaps I'll find a guinea pig...some newb who has never touched a gripper...work the above program and simply hand him/her a gripper every 3 months and have them squeeze...where in the world would I find a willing subject for that experiment? In the meantime, you gotta admit that there is an interesting possibility here... Eric, the only 1" bar work I've done has been some Trap Bar deadlifts and 1 hand deadlifts on an OL bar. No grip specific moves at that small of a diameter. I've been using 2", 2.5" and 3" diameters for thickbar. Pages 18-22 of my training log give details for what I've been up to. Edited January 31, 2005 by Sean Dockery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Good point about the definition of "train" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octogen Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Interesting idea and I have had some experience with carryover from other training improving my crush grip. Specifically when I was doing a high volume of kettlebell work I got a lot better at grippers even after not touching them for over 2 months. I think however that it is fairly well proven that specificity in training is important and leads to the fastest gains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Dockery Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 Don, Very true that specificity will lead to the fastest gains. But, at what cost? I started thinking about an alternative route to big gripper closes after my bout with KTA. My elbows and wrists ached, and my motivation to train went down the crapper. Did I progress quickly? Yes, for the 4 weeks that I could manage to stay on the program. Call me a wimp, but I want to develope frightening hand strength without chronic pain. If it is possible to close big grippers without skin tears, joint pain, et cetera; why wouldn't we pursue it? Because it might take longer to close the gripper? That seems silly to me. Obviously, my argument won't be very convincing until I am closing Elites or better, but I am enough of an optimist to think that I may be on to something. If I continue the experiment for another 9 months (total time 1 year) and do not see improvement, I will readily admit that I followed a dead end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milkbone Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I'm interested to see if this works out for you. But, I have to say, why not do KTA and adjust the volume downward if it becomes a problem. I did this in phase 2 and it seemed to work okay for me. Heck, I even took more rest days at the end of each week and still made good strength gains. I feel confident you will make progress by going about it the way you are, but I think it will be significantly slower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Dockery Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 I'll trade fast progress for pain free and enjoyable progress everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamidon Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Sean, I think this is very interesting. I am a believer that hand strength is hand strength. Once you are very strong you can quickly adapt to the different disciplines. I hate grippers too, wish I could get stronger on them with the remote control Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 I'm one of the new guys at the Ohio group get togethers - one of the first things I noticed was that no one seems to work the grippers much. Just about everything else is going on at all times, and every once in a while, some one grabs a gripper, gives it a squeeze and turns around for another grip toy of some kind. I've never specilized myself, except maybe training for climbing type strength but I hope Sean and others are right about other work helping with the grippers, I'd like to close a #3 but they just don't interest me enough to spend the time for something like KTA. I'm also not sure my old achey hands will hold up to it, the grippers give me more soreness (of the wrong kind) than any other grip work. So in a way, I guess I'm part of Sean's experiment without even knowing it. My plan for 2005 is to start the Synergy Forearms program for my goal of a 200# wrist curl - then use some of Seans tips for my pinch goals of 2 Blobs and 2-45s. I never train my V-bar and it is tending higher every couple months when I try it. Axle DL is getting close to my regular DL - maybe it's time to increase that. Some things seem to be stuck, some are progressing - I think strong is strong - I sure hope that's right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stew2 Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Hey, Doc I'm with you on the grippers. Ever ssince I got them all for christmas I used them in my workout for about two weeks and the carpaletunnel started flaring up that had pretty much went away after starting my grip workout. So I have done them maybe twice since then. The last time I did I was getting closer on the no set 3 and could rep 3 more reps on the 2 than before so I must not be losing it by not training them. Tell ya what I would volunteer for the newbie spot I've only been training grip about 4 months now still pretty green and the most work on the grippers I've done is when I'm done there at Nick's. With all the other stuff I'm working I realllly don't have any desire for the grippers right now. Ya I like too cert on a 3 but I don't like training them so here I am puddy mold me. By the way thanks for the horse shoes. I got them last night and had to try them that one I've had has been frustrating me so I did two last night. One broke just past paralel that kind of hurt the other I only was able to paralel I'll get that tip all the way around one of these days.Well let me know if ya still want a giunea pig heck it can't hurt any more right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zevich Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 I think this is a very interesting premise that you are working on. I am a real big believer in thick bar work and feels it has carry overs to other forms of hand strength. I was in a period when I felt like throwing the grippers out of a window of a fast moving vehicle. I don't know if I was spending too much time with the grippers, over training or what. So I stopped the grippers and continuing doing my thick bar work, + specific thick bar as in time holds and block work for 6 weeks. Went back to the grippers to see how much "gripper strength" I had lost and was shocked when the gripper, a PDA 243, went CLICK. It was the first time I had closed them. That is why I have never understand the saying, "thick bar or block work kills my gripper strength". Keep going with the experiment, you have nothing to lose, and let us know your progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 That is why I have never understand the saying, "thick bar or block work kills my gripper strength". Keep going with the experiment, you have nothing to lose, and let us know your progress. ← Well, one could argue that it makes perfect sense. If thick bar trains the same muscles as grippers well then they are going to get tired by heavy thickbar work and gripper strength is "killed". If thick bar had NOT used the same muscles then gripper strength would not be effected! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan McMillan Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 I'll trade fast progress for pain free and enjoyable progress everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. ← This is it for me in a nutshell, I simply can't imagine having fun training if I only worked with the grippers...and I like training on them Jon@han Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 IMO, hard daily training with grippers build true gripper strength that other training cannot duplicate. With pinching, thick bars etc. you will be able to close heavy grippers on a good day after plenty of rest. With daily gripper training you will be able to close heavy grippers every day. This to me is a true measure of gripper strength. It is the base strength that counts IMO. What good is it to be able to close a hard gripper only if you have not done it the day before. With a no gripper training approach you will be able to hold your own against a gripper fanatic on day one. On day two you are going to get smoked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Dockery Posted February 2, 2005 Author Share Posted February 2, 2005 An interesting thought Mikael. I assume you've seen this happen in your own training? Please give me more details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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