Calibrated Fat Bastard Stocks

[EricMilfeld]

The following calibrations were attained by loading weight from the middle of the stock, with the upward force being applied 3/4" in from each end of the stock, bending to 30 degrees.

I think the only truly meaninful comparisons of the various stocks are those of the same length. For example, a 7" piece of the 5/16" round can be compared to any other stock of 7" with a high degree of accuracy. But on the other hand, a 6" grade 8's calibration rating may not necessarily reflect how tough the grade 8 is to bend, relative to a 5" piece of some other type of stock.

Following is a list of how various pieces of 7" stock compares to the 5/16" round stock. This round stock is assigned a 100% strength rating.

3/16" round=24%

3/16" square=36%

1/4" round=55%

1/4" square=86%

Red (shiny)=91%

Red (dull) =94%

5/16" hexagonal=110%

5/16" stainless round=124%

5/16" grd 5 (triangle)=128%

5/16" grd 8 (triangle)=156%

5/16" square=160%

3/8" round=167%

Following is a list like the above, only using 6" lengths.

3/16" round=23%

"OF" 1/4" bolt=35%

3/16" square=35%

"307A" 5/16" bolt=51%

1/4" round=51%

grd 5 bolt=63%

grd 8 bolt=77%

1/4" square=81%

grd 9 bolt=81%

5/16" hexagonal=113%

5/16" stainless round=119%

And finally we have a list of all the various poundage ratings for nearly all of John Beatty's stock, as well as the 6" grade 9 bolt. For a few of the tougher pieces it simply wasn't practical for me to calibrate them.

3/16" ROUND

7"=105

6"=135

5.5"=160

5"=195

"OF" 1/4x6" Bolt=210

"BL" 1/4x6" Bolt=200

"HKT" 1/4x5.5" Bolt=285

3/16" SQUARE

7"=160

6"=210

1/4" ROUND

7"=240

6"=305

5.5"=365

5"=425

1/4x7" hexagonal=255

"307A" 5/16x6" Bolt=305

60D Keystone=315

"S30400" (stainless) 5/16x6" Bolt=485

GRADE 5 BOLTS

6"=375

5.5"=445

5"=515

"TRIANGLE" BLACK GRADE 5 BOLT

6"=385

"JH" BLACK GRADE 5 BOLTS

6"=405

5.5"=485

GRADE 8 BOLTS

6"=460

5.5"=525

"L9" GRADE 9 BOLT

6"=485

F-911 BOLT

6"=535

1/4" SQUARE

7"=380

6"=485

5.5"=565

5"=660

5/16" ROUND

7"=440 (batch from February '07 = 385) (batch from April '07 = 450), 420, 430, 515

6.5"=510

6"=600 (batch from February '07 = 510), 655

5.5"=695

5/16" HEXAGONAL

7"=485, 530, 535

6.5"=565, 590

6"=675, 705

5/16" STAINLESS ROUND

7"=545

6.5"=625

6"=715, 700

3/8" BRASS ROUND

7"=480

6.5"=530

6"=600

5.5"=720

5/16x6" "BJC" bolt=545

5/16x6" Grade 5 (triangle)=745, 715

5/16x6" Grade 5 "linear S"=745

5/16x6" Grade 5 "W.T"=715

5/16x6" Grade 5 "NB"=710

5/16x6" Grade 5 "JH" "FNL"=685

5/16x6" Grade 5 "TY" "FNL"=665

5/16x7" Steel Works HRS=380

3/8x7" 307A "JG" bolt=485

3/8x7" "CLM" galvanized bolt=500

3/8x7" "HKT" bolt=515

3/8x7" 307A "CYI" bolt=520

3/8x7" "BXC" bolt=535

5/16x7" Grade 5 (triangle)=565, 565, 565, 585, 540

3/8x7" 307A "DF" bolt=575, 595, 610

3/8x7" Steel Works HRS=590

3/8x7" Steel Works CRS=590, 570, 615

3/8x7" "BL" bolt=620

5/16x7" Grade 8 (triangle)=685, 675, 675, 665, 685

5/16x7" FBBC Stainless Square=595, 23 degrees with 835

5/16x7" Square=705

3/8x7" Round (King of All Bastards)=735, 665, 660, 655, 645, 635, 780

3/8x7" Stainless Steel (King of All Shiny Bastards)=820

70D Grip Rite (made in China)=285

70D Keystone=375

70D Grip Rite (made in USA)=475

FBBC SPIKES

12"=290

10"=400

GRIP RITE GALVANIZED SPIKES

12"=225

10"=330

Note: The relatively high degree of accuracy these readings reflect can be observed when you note that all 1/2" increments with a particular stock represent about a 15% strength increase.

[ironorr]

Very well thought out post!

[ironorr]

So if I had to guess, would a 1/4" round 6" length be somewhat harder in strength than a 5/16" G2 bolt 7" length?

[EricMilfeld]

So if I had to guess, would a 1/4" round 6" length be somewhat harder in strength than a 5/16" G2 bolt 7" length?

Typically when a longer piece of steel calibrates identically with a shorter piece, the longer will feel tougher to bend.

Thanks for the kind words, Ironorr!

[terminator]

Eric,

Interesting results, nice work! Humor me, and test one of the bars with the load at 1-3/4" in from each end. Do the same type of bar twice, one after the other, 3/4, then 1-3/4, and let me know what you get.

[SqeezeMasterFlash]

Very nice post! Looks like you've got some good data there.

[EricMilfeld]

Eric,

Interesting results, nice work! Humor me, and test one of the bars with the load at 1-3/4" in from each end. Do the same type of bar twice, one after the other, 3/4, then 1-3/4, and let me know what you get.

Pat, I already did. Look above and you'll see a few examples of a stock being calibrated at both 5 and 7" lengths. If I understand your question correctly, these would be examples of what you are asking for. On average, the longer piece will compare at about 56% of the strength level of the shorter. So really, where you place your hands on the bar only acccounts for a very miniscule difference in leverage.

[JohnOBrien]

Very nice, informative post. I'm printing this one off and putting it on my wall.

Nice sig line BTW!

[3Crusher]

I can't agree with this. It is a very imprecise science. What I do know is that if you move your hands in closer together, it takes more effort to bend a bar then if your hands are farther apart. Just my 2 cents.

[terminator]

7" with load 3/4" from ends

7" with load 1-3/4" from ends

Where I come from, the second bar is equivalent to 5" with load 3/4" from ends.

Any statements otherwise are incorrect. Obviously a lost cause argument. Plenty of folks who use the technique of holding way out at the ends freely admit it's tons easier. It's simple physics, something I know a little about.

[EricMilfeld]

Steve, I'm not really sure where the point of disagreement is. Yes, it's an imprecise science, but for getting an idea of where stocks of the identical length compare with eachother I think the list is helpful and pretty accurate (maybe a 5% margin of error in this comparison).

Pat, yes, as you've explained the example above is how I took your question as you first posed it. I thought I was making your case for you by demonstrating the huge effect in poundage rating increase that moving in the point of force (shortening the lever) creates. Of course whether or not a 7" bar is being used as a 5" bar by moving in the point of force 1" per side, or an actual 5" bar is being tested, shouldn't affect the results. Maybe you haven't seen the photo in the gallery of my calibrating device. It contacts the bar at a pinpoint. It's not like I'm grabbing the bar with my whole hand and lifting a weight.

I don't know, maybe it's a misunderstanding of semantics, but you guys seem to have an air of disagreement in your posts, while I see no disagreement at all. Help me out here.

[gamidon]

7" with load 3/4" from ends

7" with load 1-3/4" from ends

Where I come from, the second bar is equivalent to 5" with load 3/4" from ends.

Any statements otherwise are incorrect. Obviously a lost cause argument. Plenty of folks who use the technique of holding way out at the ends freely admit it's tons easier. It's simple physics, something I know a little about.

I can only agree with what you are saying if you actually have a 1" portion or the bar showing (sticking out past your hands). I agree with you if you move your hands in it increases the involvement of the wrist. If your palm still covers the end of the bar you are in fact putting force at that end of the bar. You are still bending a 7" bar not a 6" bar. by moving your hands in you are increasing the amount or torque your wrists must create to get the bend started. Your question is more about degrees of difficulty. I think the only true way to determine this is to have someone bend for a max both ways, and the difference in max would give a relative difference in difficulty. So if you take whatever is your best bend, move in an inch and bend it, if you are succesfull then the improvement is 1", continue on from there.

Pat I hear what you are saying, and I am not trying to be argumentative, but how about just doing an imperical test. What is you current best bend? What can you demostrate doing using Erics method. If it is truely tons easier then you should be able to shave at least an inch off your max bend. So rather than try to weigh it using a scale which people can argue about, max bend both ways and I believe the difference would show the leverage gained.

[3Crusher]

Eric,

I have seen your device, but let's for example place a pencil on top of a piece of metal that 1/4" wide. Put slight pressure with your fingers on the very ends of the pencil and the pencil flexes. If you then move your fingers 1" in from the ends of the pencil and apply the same exact pressure, the pencil will flex even less. As you continue to move the points of pressure inward closer and closer to the middle of the pencil, the pencil flexes less and less. That is why I am saying that if you move your hands out towards the ends of the bar, it is an entirely different movement than having your hands close together. This is just my opinion, and since it is different than your opinion, yes, I am disagreeing with you. I can disagree with your opinion, and have a constuctive discussion without it getting out of control. It is just my opinion, and nothing else. Whatever style of bending people want to use, that is up to them, so I will not even open up that can of worms. Again, just my 2 cents.

[JohnOBrien]

I see the list as information. Relativistic information. Regardless of how you bend, the relative difficulty of each piece of steel will be in the order of how Eric has listed it. Hand placement, technique, etc. will make a difference on the actual amount of force, but the actual order of difficulty will not be changed. The percentage of difficulty will not be changed. This is information that Eric took the time to provide us with and I don't know about you, but I value my time more than just about anything else! Thank you very much Eric!

[Bob Lipinski]

Pat-

Why don't you just bending something totally crazy with your hands out farther?

This would be an easy challenge. I know you are an excellent bender, but as it stands now it seems like you just like you are complaining because others are doing great things with a different technique.

It would be very easy for you to show others that you are right, and that you purposefully grip more of the nail for the "purity" of the challenge. I would love to be proved wrong.

[3Crusher]

I see the list as information.  Relativistic information.  Regardless of how you bend, the relative difficulty of each piece of steel will be in the order of how Eric has listed it.  Hand placement, technique, etc. will make a difference on the actual amount of force, but the actual order of difficulty will not be changed.  The percentage of difficulty will not be changed.  This is information that Eric took the time to provide us with and I don't know about you, but I value my time more than just about anything else!  Thank you very much Eric!

John,

Many months before I ever bent a Red Nail, a GripBoard member sent me 7 60d nails that he calibrated as being tougher than a Red nail. As I am sure you know, a 60p nail is 1" shorter than a red nail. I believe the calibration was done similar to Eric's method. I bent all 7 of the nails he sent to me, but it took me a long time until I bent a Red Nail. That is why I believe his list should not be taken as gospel. Others value their time as well as you do, but coming to certain conclusions on one's own without having one's hand held their entire life counts for something as well. The journey is half the fun getting to your destination, and that is where you grow your level of knowledge and confidence. I'll bow out for now before I bore everyone to tears.

[JohnOBrien]

I'm a firm believer in testing your abilities and finding out the hard way what your limits are as well. I agree that seeing a list is definitely not the same thing as bending the steel yourself and should not be substituted as such. That being said, I don't see anything on Eric's list that is out of line. The dull Red's are more difficult than the shiny Red's and 1/4" square is more difficult than 1/4" round. I'm just saying that I value the list for what it is. A guideline for the relative difficulty of these bends. I guess I haven't had the misfortune of mis-calibrated stock, but I think this is a good list for experienced benders and beginning benders alike.

[John Beatty]

I can't bend crap unless my hands start close together. Once it hits about 30 degrees I shift to overhand & I'm strongest from there on to the finish.

Eric-

Thanks a ton for all the work! I'll be getting these numbers up on the FBBC site soon.

Edited September 22, 2004 by John Beatty

[JS27]

Thanks for the list.

[EricMilfeld]

Eric,

I have seen your device, but let's for example place a pencil on top of a piece of metal that 1/4" wide.  Put slight pressure with your fingers on the very ends of the pencil and the pencil flexes.  If you then move your fingers 1" in from the ends of the pencil and apply the same exact pressure, the pencil will flex even less.  As you continue to move the points of pressure inward closer and closer to the middle of the pencil, the pencil flexes less and less.  That is why I am saying that if you move your hands out towards the ends of the bar, it is an entirely different movement than having your hands close together.  This is just my opinion, and since it is different than your opinion, yes, I am disagreeing with you.

Okay, I'm starting to feel as if I took a wrong turn somewhere and am now in the Twilight Zone. Steve, where did you ever get the notion that I diagree with you on this point? I very recently told Pat in another thread that I felt no one would disagree with this assertion, as it is very simple physics. Come on man, give me some credit. I'm just a truck driver and all, but not completely brain dead. That being said, I can play "tricks" by pushing on the ends of a bar, with my forefingers much closer to eachother than I normally keep them, and yet still get the same leverage. Am I accusing Pat or anyone else of doing this, or attempting to misrepresent their bending proficiency? Of course not! I mention this point only as a warning to pursue any possible rule modifications of hand placement with discretion.

Also, my list of calibrations was presented with qualifiers. I stated that we must compare various types and thicknesses of steel of the same length, or the results would be misleading. This is why a 60D nail can calibrate higher than a Red and yet feel substantially easier to bend. The above list is meant as an aid for comparing stock strength itself, and not to compare, for example, a 6" piece of square stock to a 7" piece of round. I'm sure I must sound like a broken record to most by now.

Once more, believe it or not, I have yet to disagree with anything you or Pat have posted on this subject. If you like we can keep trying to find a true difference of opinion. I happen to be on vacation now, and Lord knows my wife would appreciate my devotion to defending a point on which I agee with someone else for hours on end. Rod Serling save me!

Mr. Beatty, thanks, and I really enjoyed the partial deadlift workouts all that calibrating gave me.

[CMunger]

I don't understand the obsession with whether or not someone is pushing on the ends. I'd love to see someone bend try to bend metal by pushing on the middle. If you're "choking up" on the steel, then bend it's time to bend shorter steel, and you're making the shit harder than it has to be/was designed to be. I mean a 7" piece of steel has 7" to work with. Period. What's with the "grab it like it was a 6" piece" mumbo jumbo? If a guy can do that, then bend a 6" piece. I don't get it.

[GarytheDino]

I like the list. Looks like alot of work went into it. I've always wondered about the percentages......for example how close is a G8 to Red. I wonder if Eric can apply some type of curve grading system to the different length stock, based on experience, to compare say a 6"G8 directly to a 7" Red, since the different lengths are not as accurate comparision with the method used.

I find this list very helpful.

[Kurt Lane]

Id like the g8 to a red comparison along with a 5/16 Hr to a 5/16 CR comparison that would be intresting.. and help me figure out how far I have left lol

[JohnOBrien]

The only problem with a direct comparison of a G8 is that it is a different length and that throws the numbers off. Plus, the feel of a 6" vs. a 7" piece of steel is completely different. 5/16" CRS and HRS have quite a bit of variability, so calibrating those, even a 7" piece, would only be accurate for the batch that the particular piece that was calibrated was taken from. I'm assuming that is the reason that there aren't any nails incleded on the list either.

Edited October 8, 2004 by JohnOBrien

[GatorGrip]

Excellent Post Eric man I wish I had known about this earlier it would have cleared a few things up for me in the beginning which would have led to less novice questions on my part.

Thanks for the valuable information Eric