MMG0 Rules

[Bill Piche]

For the MMG0, a witness is required going forward. The thing is, do we want to require video or just a still picture with the handles being shown shut?

Vote now. Thanks.

[FrankyBoy]

I voted for video.

The only disadvantage is that a camcorder is required.

Besides this there are only benefits:

1. Its much easier to take than a still shot with a digital camera.

2. If a still shot is needed it can be taken out of the video (As I did for the Martin Arildsson certification for his Ironmind certification)

3. The only reason that guys want to certify on the MM0 is that they want to process further on the ladder. So why not doing the video aleady for MM0?

4. It incerases the credibilty of the feat.

5. Videos look better then pictures.

[SqeezeMasterFlash]

All that should be required is a picture and a witness. Without a certified gripper being used if people wanted to cheat they could (not that I see that being a problem). Video should be optional. Most people will provide video anyway, but some just might not be able to do it.

[jad]

I voted for just the picture. CoC's are already eligible for the MM1 and no video is required to cert on a #3 so I don't feel video should be required for the MMO. I'm not a fan of double standards.That said, if you have access to the video though it's probably easier than a still shot. I had to go to a professional photographer to get my #3 cert pics.

[mooinabc1]

wannagrip

Yes a video.

But clear close up for the end of the handles that mark the letters or

numbers. mybe a practice run.

[The Mac]

I voted for video - just my preference. I have no objection to the picture though, so I suppose you could put my vote down as a 4/5ths.

[itch85]

video here, just because im getting a camcorder and want to use it

[Finnegann]

Still Photo.

Things can always be faked. Anyone hell bent on cheating won't be dissuaded by the fact that faking a video takes a little more work than faking a still photo.

Further, there's not that much incentive to fake the MM0. There's no cash reward or fame, you're not setting any records, girls aren't going to be throwing themselves at you... you just get a little well-deserved recognition for your hard work from a group of guys with a common interest (something that a person who didn't really close a #3 would not appreciate)... and a shot at the MM1.

I think the chances are slim of there being (1) a person who wants to deceive us, (2) a witness willing to lie to help that person, and (3) those people having the knowledge and patience to fake a photo. I definitely think the chances of that happening are less than the chance of someone not being able to certify because they don't have access to a video camera.

[The Mac]

Further, there's not that much incentive to fake the MM0. There's no cash reward or fame, you're not setting any records, girls aren't going to be throwing themselves at you... you just get a little well-deserved recognition for your hard work from a group of guys with a common interest (something that a person who didn't really close a #3 would not appreciate)... and a shot at the MM1.

Whilst I agree the chances of it are slim, there are definitely people out there who will "cheat" to get some approval from others, so I don't necessarily agree with the thrust of this paragraph.

Remember, this is the Internet folks...

[gerryg]

I voted for the video!

[Finnegann]

Whilst I agree the chances of it are slim, there are definitely people out there who will "cheat" to get some approval from others, so I don't necessarily agree with the thrust of this paragraph.

As I said, things can always be faked, and anyone hell bent on cheating won't be dissuaded by the fact that faking a video takes a little more work than faking a still photo.

The chances of someone faking it are slim with either a still photo or a video... maybe slightly slimmer with the video because it requires more effort to fake.

Some safeguards against fakes are worthwhile, even though they may cause some inconvenience for the person who is certifying. What we must do in a situation like this is compare the benefit of the added safeguard against the inconvenience caused by it.

There's just not much benefit here to adding another obstacle to certification at this level. What's worse, the obstacle could be a lot more trouble for a person who has no access to a video camera than to a "cheater" with a video camera, some editing software, and a little know how.

[Jedd Johnson]

I vote for the video. I have a few reasons / feelings that govern my opinion.

If your argument against video is that you have no access to a video camera, then you shouldn't sign up for the Mash Monster process as it is, because you won't be able to fulfill the requirements.

People WILL cheat or lie. People have already cheated or lied, they just haven't gotten away with it.

With video and the right software, it is much easier to get a shot of the gripper closed and to read the bottom of the handle. The still shot comes out in near-perfect detail.

Yes, things can always be faked, but with a video, it will almost always be easier to tell that it was faked or there was cheating involved. Think of how suspicious the number three seemed that the Canadian brothers used to pawn off as real, but would never let anyone try.

(1) a person who wants to deceive us, (2) a witness willing to lie to help that person, and (3) those people having the knowledge and patience to fake a photo.

The chances are slim, but not zero.

-Jedd-

[OldGuy]

Video. I can think of so many ways to fake closing any gripper. Much harder with video involved. I will not reveal those ways!

[FbaLLPlaya_53]

Without reading peoples opinions I would say just a photo, but after reading Jedds post it made me re-think that, and I will now say that a video should be required simply because there are people who cheat and there always will be.

[CMunger]

I vote still, just because the MMG0 is a more informal/entry level to the MM Gripper ladder, and it started as an alternative for people after the IM rule change. I'm ok with video, I jsut think that it unnecessarily complicates things. If somebody's faking the funk on the MMG0, they'll fall flat on their face BADLY trying the MMG1. I dunno, I think that an outside witness and a photo should suffice. Mimic the old IM rules, and I think it should be golden.

Edited September 14, 2004 by CMunger

[milkbone]

I think video proof should be required for the MM0. To me, it is an extension of the MM certification process and should be held to the same level of proof. You have to have video for MM1, 2, or 3, so why not make it across the board? I know it's an inconvenience to some guys but I think it's necessary to maintain a level of legitimacy for the certification. Sure, video can be faked, but it's much harder to alter many frames of video than it is to alter 1 picture. Besides, why even bother getting yourself on the MM0 list if you are not interested in going forward to the MM1? You'll have to have video to progress on the MM list, why not get the process of videoing your closes figured out now? I also think that by getting guys to get "good" video proof with a #3, it paves the way for good video on future MM closes. No more jerky, bobbing videos that look like a gripper version of the Blair Witch Project.

[Bob Lipinski]

I say picture or neither.

My only reasoning is that the MMG0 isn't really anything, basically just a qualifier. I'd say give a small burden of proof and no recognition, cause seriously the MMG0 wasn't meant to be a "title", just a qualification.

A respected witness, in my opinion, would be good enough for that purpose.

I say take the MMG0 list offline so there is no reason whatsoever to fake it.

[austinslater]

I voted picture. I understand the reasoning behind the video though. I just think if someone wants to fake it who cares. They cant sign up for the mm1 anyways and wont if they are faking the mmo level.

Austin

[Bill Piche]

Bump

[Jedd Johnson]

I'm ok with video, I jsut think that it unnecessarily complicates things. If somebody's faking the funk on the MMG0, they'll fall flat on their face BADLY trying the MMG1.

It's going to waste the time of the process, guys. Serious honest gripsters will have to wait if these guys fake it and then sign up for the Level 1.

Note - that I said IF.

Gotta understand guys, the cheaters on the 3 still shot aren't going to sign up for the Level one, because they know they will get caught. If they don't sign up they won't get caught, but they'll always be on the board with a still shot on a list saying they reached an excellent pinnacle in grip strength when in actuality, they did not.

A still shot is too easy to fake, guys. Video is what this board is built around, so why go to still shots?

Really in my opinion, you shouldn't be able to get on any records lists without video, but that is only my opinion, I guess.

-Jedd-

[Sybersnott]

Gotta understand guys, the cheaters on the 3 still shot aren't going to sign up for the Level one, because they know they will get caught. If they don't sign up they won't get caught, but they'll always be on the board with a still shot on a list saying they reached an excellent pinnacle in grip strength when in actuality, they did not.

Jedd - words of wisdom. This is how I feel about it too!

[twig]

I say video AND an independant witness, someone with a proven track record, because that person will verify the strength of the gripper. Otherwise the gripper could be a trainer that's had the handle ground down and a 3, or even 4 stamped on it!

Incidently, I disadvantage myself here, because I don't have a video camera, but then, I'm miles away from attempting any sort of certification, so it a null point.

[AP]

Yeah that's why we also have the witness. If you think about it, this system is more robust even without video than the Ironmind system. A gripboard member in good standing should be able to tell if the gripper is a good 3 and not tampered with in any way, knows what to look for with set depth, will look closely at the close because they know that the last milimeter is the hardest part (whereas a witness whose never closed a hard gripper might not pay attention because they think that if you can get it to within 2mms then you've essentially got it closed), AND not to mention that these witnesses are public record and not some kind of secret that only Ironmind knows.

But, on the other hand, if any of you voted for a pic because you think the MMG is not a big deal, you might reconsider. I think it's a big deal to have the Mash Monster title and I'm excited about certifying whether with picture or if I can find a video camera. It's still a big milestone

[Bill Piche]

Direction choice time.

Thanks for all the feedback and inputs.

There were good statements on both sides. It's pretty much even with video a very slight margin (if you call it a margin).

However, we have to choose a direction and I think the "video and witness" required is the direction we take.

[The Mac]

It is good that we've had a lot of input on this!