Im Red Nail Rule Clarification/modification

[Jedd Johnson]

Does he bend without them, or did he just do those demo pics without them?

-Jedd-

[crs9740]

I'm almost positive Bender uses padding for all his bends. ( occasionally bending slim style without I think)

-CHRIS

so I might have read his web page a FEW times...

[austinslater]

I can actually see where IM is coming from. If the new rule bothers you then go after Beattys cert process as he makes great products and should be supported. Im betting the double overhand will be the next to go as Mikael has suggested. Just pick the cert process that fits your style and have some fun with it and dont worry about the other cert process. Doing this for a certification shouldnt be a top motivating factor so lets have some fun!

Austin

[terminator]

I think it's a step in the right direction, especially if it helps minimize all the grabbing the last inch of the nail "bends". Truthfully I'd love to see a max distance between the fingers rule, but people would surely bitch and complain.

[Dan Cenidoza]

That didn't stop Randy from making the credit card rule. Maybe he should apply the credit card rule to the bending cert.

[EricMilfeld]

I think it's a step in the right direction, especially if it helps minimize all the grabbing the last inch of the nail "bends". Truthfully I'd love to see a max distance between the fingers rule, but people would surely bitch and complain.

I won't argue whether or not pushing should be allowed, though everyone employs it to some extent, but I will mention some potential problems with such a rule. First off, larger handed individual would have the upper hand, as they would be able to get more of their hands on the bar's end while maintaining the maximum distance between their fingers. Secondly, by opening up one's first three fingers and pointing them towards eachother, the palms can still be positioned on the bar's ends and used for pushing while adhering to the rule. And it's the pressure being applied by the palms that does the bending (atleast during the initial kink), while the fingers are acting to stabilize the bar and serve as a fulcrum. And lastly, with a "one size fits all" max distance rule one's technique would change depending upon the length of the bar being bent. With shorter bars a push style could still be employed, while longer bends would require substantially more wrist strength.

[gamidon]

This is nothing more than a question so please do not read into this.

I do not understand the difference between terminators bending styl and Eric's. I have looked at terminators 6.5" red bend video and Eric's red bend video from his maximized bending book.

Terminators Red Nail

There is a picture of terminator in the night of strength where he is starting a bend

Night of Strength2 bend

The only real difference I see is the terminators index finger is straight and his fulcrum appears to be the index finger and the middle finger. I can understand why you might choose to disallow the overhand style for a wrist strength event, but I can't figure out why you would worry about the "last inch" of the nail being used. The longer the nail the more leverage you get, and the further your hands are out the more leverage you get. Why would this even be a concern?

If the goal is to bend a bar unbraced who cares how you go about it as long as it is unbraced, if the goal is wrist strength then get rid of the overhand style.

Greg

[Zach Passman]

I think it's a step in the right direction, especially if it helps minimize all the grabbing the last inch of the nail "bends". Truthfully I'd love to see a max distance between the fingers rule, but people would surely bitch and complain.

What distance between the two hands would you like to see?

[OldGuy]

Some pain loving people have bent 60d nails barehanded. Bender on his website, insists that people use wraps and padding. Has anyone seen Brookfield bending nails of any kind?

[terminator]

I've said it before, 1"-1.5" max for a certified bend between fingers. Three or four to five inches is just plain ridiculous on a seven inch bar. I don't expect it to be a popular view, but I really don't care. If you can't do it like that, you ain't proved much to me.

[Bill Piche]

More changes will come I'm sure, as more and more people smoke reds....especially if they are all gripboarders. I'm just hoping they don't change too much before I get there

Look at the list. Most are gripboarders.

[OldGuy]

Are we looking for the most difficult way to bend a nail with two hands? It is human nature to take the path of least resistance. I myself use Bender's style, because it is the only way I can bend a nail. I showed a friend that same style, and he has gone on to fully bend grade 5 bolts using it. Also it seems to me that the Holles have to some extent popularized the hands way apart under the chin maximum leverage style, and they are clearly Strossen boys. How can you maintain a list of red nail benders and gripper closers when not all was achieved within the same set of rules? It has become a farce. Gripboard certs are the way to go. This reminds me of a job I did years ago in England. They indroduced a bonus scheme. The better we did each month, the harder thay made the terms of the bonus as we were making too much money. Of course they went on to drop the bonus scheme.

[gaster]

So what about the people who used leather wraps for certification right in front of Randy?

Do they still get to stay on the list or should they get recertified?

Or maybe we aren't supposed to remember that little detail?

[OldGuy]

So what about the people who used leather wraps for certification right in front of Randy?

Do they still get to stay on the list or should they get recertified?

Or maybe we aren't supposed to remember that little detail?

Exactly

[Clay Edgin]

I used leather wraps in front of Randy too. We shouldn't have to recertify, just like #3 closers who used a 1" set don't have to recertify with the credit card.

[jad]

If the goal is to bend a bar unbraced who cares how you go about it as long as it is unbraced, if the goal is wrist strength then get rid of the overhand style.

Greg

Exactly. Although I would add if the goal is wrist stength the individual must bend Slim-style only. Every other style I've seen uses plenty of other muscles. The old Terminator style requires A LOT of wrist strength but it is by no means pure wrist. I've put a very slight kink in a G5 with the old Terminator style but I can't even do a TT, Slim-style. Why would you not use the most advantageous style if your goal is to bend steel unbraced and why would you not use the most wrist-taxing style if your goal is to demonstrate wrist strength?

[CMunger]

If the goal is wrist strength, do wrist curls. Bending is a cool party trick. Period.

Flame away.

Edited August 17, 2004 by CMunger

[nagual]

In any given sport rules tend to change as the technique/equipment improves etc. This is usually for practical and/or safety reasons (for instance, javelins flying out of the stadion and spearing onlookers - the javelins used to be a lot easier to throw), or for a more intangible reason such as, for instance, "moving away from the essence of the sport/challenge".

Strossen's motivation for the rule changes would fall under the last category, and perhaps a practical/financial one.

Now, I do not believe there is anything inherantly wrong with this. That is just the nature of things.

However, feats performed in the context of a different rule become a lot less meaningful, if that context is not known. If a newcomer looks at the IronMind #3 closers list, he will be oblivious to the fact that the rules have changed over time, and that most of the certifications would not pass under the new rule.

This does not diminish the feat in and of itself, as a #3 close is quite impressive however it's performed (especially for the average joe), but it does make the certification, and thus the feat, inconsistent.

Edited August 17, 2004 by nagual

[MikeP]

And that is the ONLY problem I have with it....if you change the rules in the middle of the contest than the contest is screwed and the results really are meaningless. Right or wrong you have to stay the course. Now, if things get too easy or whatever, you can always introduce a new challenge and make the rules whatever you want. Make a "black" nail and say it must be bent with IM pads with 1" between the hands, fine, its your party. Introduce a new 3.5 COC that must be No Set to get yourself on the list, fine, your party. Just don't change midstream.

[The Mac]

I don't recall the IAAF introducing new world record categories when Athletics stopped using Cinder tracks and started using Tartan. Neither did they introduce new categories when they switched from a wooden pole to a fibre-glass one. Things change - that is the nature of sport. Get over it - if you don't want to get an Ironmind certification for a #3 or a Red, then don't. You have options now.

For what it is worth, I agree with CMunger. It's just one reason it does not interest me.

[3Crusher]

Munger and Mac,

Party Trick? I just love it when others trivialize things they either can't do, or have no interest in. I guess cleaning and jerking a 500 pound barbell is a party trick too, since you can't do that either? Or maybe just no interest? There is no comparison to bending a nail and doing a 500 pound clean & jerk, but for those who have worked hard to get good at something, like bending nails, or Olympic lifting, it is a slap in the face. Olympic lifting is all technique, right? No strength involved, right? Take 500 pounds off a rack and get it over your head any way you want. Nice trick, huh? See my point? I could care less if you do or don't, but try at least to respect what others enjoy and have achieved.

[The Mac]

3Crusher,

Did I trivialize the acheivments of others? That was not my intention - if it came off that way I apolgize. I PERSONALLY do not believe that it is the best (or even a very good) test of wrist strength, hence my agreement with CMunger. I do not see it as merely a party trick, although the recent discussions in this forum concerning bending materials and technique (which I obviously did not spend hours reading because I clearly do not respect it - now where is that sarcasm button?) has made it's continued use in a GRIP contest questionable to me, in my opinion, with my limited experience.

See my point? I could care less if you do or don't,

After your response, I am not sure I do either.

[Anuwbius]

wow, lets not start jumping at each others throats here. In a sense, I also agree with Cmunger. Bending is a novelty. I dont bend to become strong, I bend because its freakin awsome. Bending is fun. And yes, bending definitly makes you stronger in many respects, including your wrists, but if super wrist strength is what one is after, and that is the focus training, why not just play with sledges all the time?

Just because bending is more of a fun drivin past time for some people doesnt mean they didnt put their sweat and blood into getting better at it AND doesnt mean that it isnt hard.

Hell, if someone bends a 60D for painful wrist ripping strength training, or someone bends a 60D at a cocktail party as an ice breaker, either way, their bending a big nail.

Personally, I have the utmost respect for anyone who loves to bend, regardless of the reason why.

[CMunger]

Hey, don't get me wrong. I love bending, and I'm back into it after letting my wrists recover. My point is that bending is a "feat", not a wrist exercise. And, as I said, if people are saying that bending is merely the means to an end of strengthening wrists, they're barking up the wrong tree, IMO. It's a feat for show. For me, it's a party trick. Sure I practice it to try to get better at it, but bending is bending. It's not "wrist work", it's not this, it's not that, it's using your own strength to bend metal. People came up with unbraced bending to standardize the feat, but all this talk about no overhand, no this, no that.... It's ridiculous. I think IM has made probably the best call, IMO by standardizing the pads used for certification.

But the talk of banning overhand is akin to talking about banning the Fosbury Flop because some think that Scissoring is "pure" high jumping, and that it's supposed to be about how strong your legs are, not how flexible your back is and how coordinated you can snake and maneuver your body in the air to clear higher bars than you otherwise could. That's my beef with the whole discussion. Bending is about bending. Not wrist strength, not pec strength, not shoulder strength, or whatever otehr muscles are used more or less in a given nuance of technique.

re: working hard to be good at something - great. I'm working at becoming a better bender. Why? So I can do more impressive party tricks. I'm knocking on the Grade 8, and when I get it one of the first things I'm gonna do is go to the Fastenal store where a guy was incredulous when I told him that people were bending them. There are people working at being better at eating light bulbs, sword swallowing, breaking bricks, ripping license plates, all sorts of physical feats. I'm not belittling bending, I'm just calling it what it is. As you and Pat know, when you get to be good enough at "party tricks" (don't get pissed, just keeping the theme here) people will line up to see them performed. But at what point does it change from a party trick to performance? I'd say based on the size of the audience.

so in conclusion - What is bending? It's a party trick. What's bending really really hard stuff? A hell of a party trick that some people might pay to see, and will probably impress a lot of people.

[JohnOBrien]

If you want a good workout from bending, break a nail/bolt/piece of steel. I promise that you'll feel it in your wrists!