Brookfield's Article On Bending The Red

[GordonV]

supersqueeze Posted on Mar 5 2004, 09:41 AM

  All this talk of bracing vs not bracing is starting to irritate me. What about the under the chin, neck and chest brace used by most in their "non-braced" bends? Clearly the neck, chest and chin are used to support and steady the hands and wrists during the start and finish of the chest crush. Is this not bracing?

Mike M. 

When bending, contact with the neck chin or chest can provide steadiness and help prevent injury due to sudden loss of control. This is not "bracing" in the traditional sense. Braced bending in the traditional sense is to use ones legs or other body part to press against or add leverage or power. i.e. bending wrenches between the legs or bracing horseshoes on the thigh to gain leverage on an awkward object.

suterp Posted on Mar 5 2004, 09:44 AM

  I have practically no experience bending, but doesn't the wrapping material add leverage? Especially when it's a short bar and a thick wrap, I'm guessing it makes a big difference. I think if bending gets more popular and competitive, the whole wrapping issue will get scrutinized, and using certain materials and thicknesses will not be considered legit bends. 

I challenge you to actually do some short (5" and shorter) bending. I see this reasoning thrown up frequently when looking at all bending, not just short bending. Conceivably a particular rag could provide a small amount of additional grasping area/leverage on a particular nail, but if one does not have the power & technique down to perfection, the best rag in the world will not help.

I witnessed first hand Rob V, bend a 4" blue. Sure he used a Kevlar rag (nearly everyone who didn't was sporting some kind of injury) but that rag did not help him bend that nail.

[supersqueeze]

Gordon V. - Read the rules of bending and pay particular attention to the part about what is and isn't bracing.

Mike M.

[Mikael Siversson]

Let's put it simply: with Terminator 's style and Holle's style and spike style (or Shrug style) A LOT of upperbody power is involved.

It is just a FACT and i'm not sorry if some people don't like it.

Now its getting entertaining. What is your definition of a fact?

[amaury]

Here is a fact: i go Holle style on a 6mm*160mm nail and don't exert chest strength. Nothing happens. Then i push hard on the ends of the nail and kaboom, job done. What is entertaining is your limited understanding of the physics of the bend. It's easy to put a small deviation on a nail, and OK this very very first part can be done with wrist strength only. Once this small deviation is here if you can exert a lot of strength on the ends of the nails then the job will get much easier. With Holle's style you can exert that pressure with your chest. Brookfield's style it's possible too but VERY limited (cable cross over analogy in my post above). That's why JB's style is almost pure wrist strength.

[AP]

Holle's style and spike style (or Shrug style) A LOT of upperbody power is involved.

It is just a FACT and i'm not sorry if some people don't like it.

Its NOT a fact simply because the Holles don't HAVE a lot of upperbody power.

Sure when you see Shrug bend it looks like upperbody is essential, but Gavin Holle has proved that it is not. But you're right we do see things pretty similarly except on the point that I think Brookfield is just making excuses. He shouldn't critisize legitimate techniques jus because other people are puttin a whoopin on his storied bends.

As for the bracing V nonBracing argument Supersqueeze is bringing up, I think he makes a legitimate point. I would still argue that contact with the chin/chest is not the same type of bracing that contact against the leg is. But, what do the rest of you think?

Edited March 5, 2004 by AP

[amaury]

Its NOT a fact simply because the Holles don't HAVE a lot of upperbody power.

Each amount of upper body strength you can add to the bend is an help. With JB style you can almost apply no upper body strength, with Holle's style you can. Do you think that if you can apply just 80kgs on the end of the nail it doesn't help a lot ???

[Mikael Siversson]

What is entertaining is your limited understanding of the physics of the bend. It's easy to put a small deviation on a nail, but this very very first part can be done with wrist strength only. Once this small deviation is here if you can exert a lot of strength on the ends of the nails then the job will get much easier. With Holle's style you can exert that pressure with your chest. Brookfield's style it's possible too but VERY limited (cable cross over analogy in my post above). That's why JB's style is almost pure wrist strength.

Ahh, a French with an attitude. Honestly, I doubt Brookfield just wiggles his wrist to bend things.

[amaury]

I don't know what Brookfield does or does not and in the end i don't care. I'm talking about the differences between the double overhand waist style (let's call it Brookfield's style for the moment will we) and the other styles. Some styles involve upper body strength much more than others and that's the point i want to make. If i understood correctly wthe first post, that was Brookfield's point too and i agree with him.

[amaury]

I doubt Brookfield just wiggles his wrist to bend things.

You can't do much more with the double overhand waist style and that's why i say bending a red in that fashion would be out of this world.

[AP]

To Supersqueeze:

1. No part of competitor’s arms/hands may touch body below waist level. Upper arm down to elbow is allowed contact with chest and stomach. Any part of the arm may contact from the pectorals and above. Hands may only contact body from pectorals and above, this is primarily to prevent injuries caused by unsupported rotation of wrist under extreme load during a bend.

I'm guessing you disagree with the permisiveness of this rule?

Amaury & Mikael,

Let's not let this get out of hand (unless you want to go to chat to duke it out ...) But I agree with Mikael that any style has inherent in it a degree of body english. I don't think you could create a rule barring this, even with behind the back bending. Therefor I think we should assume that people are using all availible strength when bending... No matter what style you use I think after a while you'll figure out the technique to use what body leverage you have.

Edited March 5, 2004 by AP

[chrisof4]

As for the bracing V nonBracing argument Supersqueeze is bringing up, I think he makes a legitimate point. I would still argue that contact with the chin/chest is not the same type of bracing that contact against the leg is. But, what do the rest of you think?

I am new to bending, so I may be misreading the rules, but I thought any contact with the body above the pecs was legal. I have been using my chin to help stabilize a bend during the crush. But at the same time, I am not exerting any significant force against my chin. I mean, its not like I am developing a callous under my chin because I am pushing down hard on the top of the nail.

Instead, it serves more as a centering point for me to help keep both hands pressing equally during the crush. Anyway, just my two cents.

[Mikael Siversson]

I don't know what Brookfield does or does not and in the end i don't care.

Quote:That's why JB's style is almost pure wrist strength.

Now I am getting really confused. First you conclude (after thorough research) that Brookfields bends are almost pure wrist strength and then you tell us that you have no idea what John does or does not.

[GordonV]

supersqueeze Posted on Mar 5 2004, 10:17 AM

  Gordon V. - Read the rules of bending and pay particular attention to the part about what is and isn't bracing.

Mike M. 

Mike, I am familiar with the rules. I also believe that my prior statements are completly accurate. I am however open to suggestion. I have excerpted the relevant portions of 1-3 of the rules (dealing with hand positioning and bracing). Emphasis added. Where does my misunderstanding lie?

1. No part of competitor’s arms/hands may touch body below waist level. Upper arm down to elbow is allowed contact with chest and stomach. Any part of the arm may contact from the pectorals and above. Hands may only contact body from pectorals and above, this is primarily to prevent injuries caused by unsupported rotation of wrist under extreme load during a bend.

2. Competitor may not lean against any stationary object. The feet on the ground are the only permissible contact.

3. The object being bent may not dip below waist level at any time during

the bend. Any incidental contact between the arms/hands and any part of the

legs during a bend is cause for immediate disqualification. Reference to

"during the bend" indicates the time when you are applying force to the

object, obviously while wrapping, resting or positioning for the bend your

hands sometimes are below the waist.

[jad]

Holle's style and spike style (or Shrug style) A LOT of upperbody power is involved.

It is just a FACT and i'm not sorry if some people don't like it.

Its NOT a fact simply because the Holles don't HAVE a lot of upperbody power.

Sure when you see Shrug bend it looks like upperbody is essential, but Gavin Holle has proved that it is not. But you're right we do see things pretty similarly except on the point that I think Brookfield is just making excuses. He shouldn't critisize legitimate techniques jus because other people are puttin a whoopin on his storied bends.

As for the bracing V nonBracing argument Supersqueeze is bringing up, I think he makes a legitimate point. I would still argue that contact with the chin/chest is not the same type of bracing that contact against the leg is. But, what do the rest of you think?

Gavin isn't in Shrug's zipcode when in comes to upperbody strength but don't lump Gavin in there with Nathan. Look at the pics of the brothers on the IM site and you can see Gavin is by no means small. In all the new pics he's got a longsleeve shirt on so you can't really tell much but on that pic, with the short sleeves, you can see he's no weakling in the upperbody department and not even comparable to Nathan.You can't tell how wide his wrists are due to the angle but you can see they are very thick. I'll guarantee you Gavin has plenty of upperbody power, he may not win any powerlifting meets, but he's got plenty for nailbending.

I'm a huge JB fan but if he thinks the other styles are so easy then I agree he should just try them and theoretically blow by everyone or he should keep quiet(put up or shut up). However all of these people claiming they've surpassed him as a bender should try bending a red his way or shut up as well.

I was confused about the chin/chest bracing as well. So is it just your lowerbody that you can't be in contact with as far as bracing?

[amaury]

Quote:That's why JB's style is almost pure wrist strength.

Now I am getting really confused. First you conclude (after thorough research) that Brookfields bends are almost pure wrist strength and then you tell us that you have no idea what John does or does not.

I think either you understood what i mean't (which was "i don't know whether Brookfield really bent that red nail in a double overhand waist style as he seems to claim, and i don't care) and you were therefore trying to be a smart a## either you are indeed too confused.

[AP]

Don't lump Gavin in there with Nathan.

Ok, I don't want to suggest that either of them are weak, because that's obviously not the case. I just remember seeing a post about Nathan's Bench press being about 250 and his overhead at 190 or something don't quote these. And that his brothers were all in that neighborhood also. Maybe they don't work bench alot? or my memory is wrong I could admit that, whatever, also Nathan is an accomplished bender too, and I thought that he was nearing a red bend as well? Regardless, I don't think one needs the strength of a 300 benchpress in shoulder/tri strength to bend a red. But one needs some serious fing wrist strength...

[Mikael Siversson]

I think either you understood what i mean't (which was "i don't know whether Brookfield really bent that red nail in a double overhand waist style as he seems to claim, and i don't care) and you were therefore trying to be a smart a## either you are indeed too confused.

That is one very long and complicated sentence. I am especially confused by the last bits.

[AP]

From Ironmind News: Feb 17 2004

Last summer, Gavin Holle absolutely demolished a Red nail and in so doing popularized a new style which involved holding the nail at about chin height. In fairly short order, two of Gavin's brothers, Craig and Jay, also officially bent an IronMind red nail

Craig and Jay don't look that yooge in any ironmind pics. I could be wrong though, chest strength can't neccessarily be seen in pics, and again maybe they just don't BP and that is why their numbers are/were/(I remebered them wrong) low...

That is one very long and complicated sentence. I am especially confused by the last bits.

Don't be jerk Mikael, quit while you're ahead.

[thorfinn]

Skill is a big part of displaying sterngth. If you want to get big and strong in many angles then doing many lifts with a rep range that enables both strength and size to be gained will work. But, when you specify the transfer to other lifts is not that great. Unless you practice and want to excel at those lifts. Baseball pitchers do not have unreal squats or bench presses (unless they train for PL like strength which might hinder ability) yet they can throw a ball much faster than normal folks. Skill. A boxer can puch real hard (break your face hard) and still not bench or squat very impressive numbers. But, both of the athletes require and display a significant amount strength and power in these areas. Another is that a boxer with a lower bench and squat can punch herder than the higher strength in those lifts. Shot putters founf this out too.

Wrapping does add leverage too. It has more to do with pain but, any advantage in leverage will help. For instance...I had a flat tire so, I whipped out the crobar (very short one) and started trying to break the lugs free. Well I got all them off except on stingy one. I tried and tried... Nothing. Then I removed my sock and wrapped the crobar and with less effort came right off. Some might say you lossened it already. I doubt it. It was the added leverage and the removal of pain too. Levering a sledgehammer... move up an 1/8" makes a big difference.

Bracing...Even a little is still bracing... Ones skill just gets real good at exploiting the brace. Check out the posts about just holding grippers by the coil and most say it was easier to close etc... Just an example. I'm sure there are others.

Okay begin the attack on the newbie.

-Keith-

[amaury]

Yes you were right Mikael, i should have recognised it. Bending has nothing to do with upperbody strength and all the styles are equal in that department. Sorry once again. What a jerk am i

[Mikael Siversson]

Don't be jerk Mikael, quit while you're ahead.

I am bored.

[amaury]

You surely were bored too during your physics lessons

[Bill Piche]

Let's talk facts here boys and not get into personal attacks.

By the way, who started this thread. I think it's funny how I get these good threads going and they end up causing me potential work as a moderator. HAHHAHAHA!

My take is Brookfield should not degrade the new young up and coming stars. Regardless how you word it, that's what he did.

[Bob Lipinski]

Ha, this parallels many of the powerlifting debates.

My opinion is, the best is the person who can do the most "weight" under the rules. Other feats may be admirable, but to be the best you have to play the same game as the rest of the top contenders.

[EricMilfeld]

My opinion is, the best is the person who can do the most "weight" under the rules. Other feats may be admirable, but to be the best you have to play the same game as the rest of the top contenders.

Bingo.