The Future of the MashMonster Certification

[Bill Piche]

For those who might have missed my post on retiring from the Gripboard, read it HERE

 

What about the MashMonster certification moving forward?  As you know, Matt has been the key person for the MashMonster certifications. He and I have worked super well as a team. Him being the most important front end and me the back end with the list updates, profiles, etc. 

 

The first MashMonster was certified on November 22, 2003 (Heath Sexton).  In November of this year, the certification will be 20 years old!  During this time, the grippers have traveled the world!  What is amazing is we never lost ANY of the grippers. What is not known by members is that I had purchased “backup” grippers for most levels (several for Level 1) and they were made at the exact same time by the infamous Warren Tetting to ensure they were as close as possible to the same just in case we lost a gripper during their travels all over the world. We never had to replace a gripper with a backup due to loss in transit in over 20 years. Amazing! With my retirement from running this forum, it’s a fitting time to end an era with the current MashMonster certification.

 

That does not mean an end to the MashMonster certification.  Quite the contrary!  Let me share the exciting possibilities going forward with Matt at the helm. Matt and I think it’s time to make the MashMonster certification more expansive, inclusive, sustainable, and stable.   While all athletes closed the same grippers, there is a known issue that grippers do get easier over time and measurements show the strength is sliding especially at the lower levels. We have known for a long time that international shipping costs have been a huge barrier to a true worldwide certification. A new MashMonster certification means the potential to have international satellite shipping hubs for the MashMonster grippers to make the cost more economical.  It might be time for more levels as well and that means more lower levels for women which is exciting!  And, last but not least, which we think is a BIG one: the possibility of going straight to any of the expanded levels rather than having to do them all in order!  Now that is a potential exciting change in the certification!

 

The current MashMonster certification is hereby declared frozen in its current state.  I will be transferring the MashMonster name over to Matt soon. The potential for a new revamped version of the MashMonster certification is exciting!  What about the original grippers themselves? Well, stay tuned.  Especially if you love collecting grippers and the history they represent.

 

Bill

[EmilBB]

Super exciting to see those changes! I really love that you guys are thinking about the international gripsters! Being able to skip levels is a HUGE change and I'm very happy to see it, not because it means anything to me but I wanna see the big boys have a chance at going straight to the top!

I hope to see @Carl Myerscough in queue for the MM10 soon 

Edited October 8, 2023 by EmilBB

[Vinnie]

More wow!  I am looking forward to the new cert, which I am thinking will have something for me to strive for that isn't quite as far off as MM3!  Good luck and thanks again!

[C8Myotome]

Interesting. Is the Cannon Powerlist completely replacing mash monster? I would imagine it would because why have that list and mash monster running simultaneously by the same person when it is just about the same thing

It would make a lot more sense to actually know the rating of the gripper that will be sent so people can know if they are prepared for it or not...when it's being sent by someone that rates grippers all day as a living I always thought it was silly that we could not be told the rating of the mash monster gripper that was being sent as if it was some mysterious unknown which was obviously never the case

I hope that left-handed certs will still be a thing

Edited October 8, 2023 by C8Myotome

[dubyagrip]

If the RGC is going to be disclosed, then the cert grippers at each level should be ones with a rating at the top end or the highest rated to prove absolute mastery.  I guess this should be the case even if it isn't disclosed.

Example: The cert Tungsten should be a 200.  There have likely only been a couple of these come out of production, and knowing @Cannon ... he has one of them.

I hope the mash monster set is still used going forward.  Cards and blocks are cool, but the MMS adds a great psychological/mental element to the attempt.  It also prevents people complaining about being limited by their hand size.

Edited October 8, 2023 by dubyagrip

[Harrison]

Though im not on the MM ladder, I’ve been a silent observer the last 7 years. I hope y’all will keep it the way it is. Each progression seems like a right of passage. A lot of jumping around, I think, would be chaotic for Cannon. 

[Vinnie]

I see what Jaland is saying about not being certed on a gripper of a certain name unless you have closed the hardest one, but I was envisioning that this cert is specifically going to be by RGC anyway - in increments of 5 perhaps? - so that you would be certing a difficulty, not a name.  Maybe once someone hits the top number of a particular model of standard, they could classed as "Iron" or "Nickel" or "Tungsten" certified, but really people would just be gunning for the next RGC step.  Yes, this would be a lot of work for Cannon!  He should build in a little profit so that it is worthwhile - maybe a $10 fee on top of the shipping.  It would discourage people from doing it for no real reason, and if the volume got high, at least it would be worth the trouble for Cannon to handle it.

[C8Myotome]

I think dubya is onto something by certing the hardest version of each standard gripper. Like a 170 Cobalt etc.

Certing every 5 lbs RGC for everything ever is going to be so many certs to manage, and the more time spend doing that the less time Cannon will have to be listing pre-rated grippers for us all lolol, and if anyone can cert anything at any level 50-220 lbs im wondering at what point certs stop becoming "special" anymore if it's not something that's actually difficult enough that it's something that takes a lot of work to strive for.

I'm definitely curious to see how this plays out cause a MM cert or CoC for example it's kind of a big deal and you write a biography type article etc...I'm wondering at what RGC cutoff it becomes more than just writing a name down on a list to say you certified on a standard platinum at 120 RGC, and at what point it becomes heavy/significant enough that it becomes more than just putting a name on a list again. I mean that's basically what GHP is at for every level now, and what makes CoC certs that much more of a benchmark because of how personalized it is and the amount of recognition that comes along with it.

Also if CPL will cert different set widths that's going to be a ton more documentation/video watching of who certed what set width etc 

Either way I'm excited to see this new system

I would not mind if MMS got replaced with a 20 mm block so that there is no question of if it was parallel or not

Edited October 8, 2023 by C8Myotome

[Busa]

It would be a shame to see it go. I do like the idea of the right of passage to go up the ladder I fully understand the costs of moving the grippers around. Also the fact that they are Tetting grippers adds to it.

For me I would not like to see it retire more maybe be an option of your choice in the path you follow. When you look at CoC its always mentioned what type of judging was done along with what was closed.

If they are going to be sold off I suggest a sealed bid system for the grippers.

[C8Myotome]

16 minutes ago, Busa said:

It would be a shame to see it go. I do like the idea of the right of passage to go up the ladder I fully understand the costs of moving the grippers around. Also the fact that they are Tetting grippers adds to it.

For me I would not like to see it retire more maybe be an option of your choice in the path you follow. When you look at CoC its always mentioned what type of judging was done along with what was closed.

If they are going to be sold off I suggest a sealed bid system for the grippers.

Maybe there could be like a 1 tetting per customer limit for a while too since there are so many people who have never had a chance to buy them or own one

[Jared P]

1 hour ago, C8Myotome said:

Maybe there could be like a 1 tetting per customer limit for a while too since there are so many people who have never had a chance to buy them or own one

Agree with this. I'm likely going to sell/trade 2 of my 3 Tetting grippers soon, and only keep 1 for myself to train with and use. There is no reason for me to have 3 Tettings, when 2 other people could have the opportunity to own one.

[Jared P]

Lots of interesting opportunities for the sport ahead. I can see pros and cons to any direction these certifications take.

Combining the MM ladder and a Cannon PowerList cert system might be a mess, in my opinion. I think it would be better to keep them separate. But I also trust @Cannon and team to come up with the best solution, and support whatever decisions are made.

The MashMonster certifications could remain unrated and with (relatively) unknown RGCs to keep the magic and mystery of the certification intact, while a Cannon PowerList certification could feature the exact and precise RGCs. As far as those go, I think 10 rgc increments would be best - starting with something around 130 or 140 for men, but no lower. The certifications should still be something rare and difficult to strive for, above what the average person could do. But it could also work like the GHP cert list, where you certify to a certain level and your name is only placed on that level. So the certs could start as low as even 50 rgc, in theory, all the way up to 220+ in 10 lb increments, etc - and you'd be able to start as high or low as you want, at any given time (just like the CoC and GHP certs). As soon as you certified on another level higher, your name is now on that level instead of the lower one.

[liftyzig]

well crap just my luck

[slazbob]

Maybe the MM cert should go with Bill as part of his legacy…so to speak.

Matt continues with the Standard Grippers as the New certification for the new ownership.

rate the old Tettings, let everyone know what they are, then have the Rated Standard’s go in their place with the…hopefully, same rgc. 
 

at least people who certified in the past, will know for sure what they closed. 

[Cannon]

Hey guys! I really appreciate all the comments and feedback. Feel free to keep discussing what you would like to see. Keep it coming!  

To clarify a couple things:

1) The old Mash Monster cert is officially closed. As Bill said, the lists are frozen in time and that certification is permanently retired and the original grippers will never be used again. However, the Mash Monster name and legacy will live on as a freshened up certification in some form with different grippers and thoughtful consideration for the spirit of the certification we love.  

2) Bill and I had a great deal of discussion and deliberation over this. There were a lot of factors to consider which included everything from the lifespan of aging equipment to the fact that the Mash Monster grippers are an incredibly valuable asset when it comes to the business side of things. I do have a pretty clear picture for the type of Mash Monster certification I would like to offer. It will take some time to finalize and build. We can all anticipate a grand reopening, hopefully in 2024. 

I love seeing the ideas here. The excitement and possibilities are on full display. Mourn the endings, dream the dreams and wish the wishes. Let's hear it all!       

[Mitch Jones]

21 minutes ago, Cannon said:

Feel free to keep discussing what you would like to see. Keep it coming!

I'm no where near a Mash Monster, but just my 2 cents. I've seen both 5 and 10 pound increments suggested. and of course 5 pound increments make a lot of work. But if RGC was the method and 5 pound increments were used, maybe let people choose to jump 10lb at a time if they feel ready for it rather than every 5. This would somewhat double the rate that people could cert.

Sounds like a lot of moving parts and i'm happy i'm not responsible for it in any way lol. Kudos to Matt!

[C8Myotome]

1 hour ago, Charles Jones said:

I'm no where near a Mash Monster, but just my 2 cents. I've seen both 5 and 10 pound increments suggested. and of course 5 pound increments make a lot of work. But if RGC was the method and 5 pound increments were used, maybe let people choose to jump 10lb at a time if they feel ready for it rather than every 5. This would somewhat double the rate that people could cert.

Sounds like a lot of moving parts and i'm happy i'm not responsible for it in any way lol. Kudos to Matt!

I believe the whole idea of the CPL is that you can attempt whatever level you want, so the only reason to do small increments would be if that's what you could manage at the time. Some people will be going straight to the top 

[liftyzig]

Loved the mystery and the history behind the original grippers, a lot of blood sweat and tears went into training to close the same gripper that people we looked up to in the past had also closed.  

I'm sure whatever comes next will be fine, but I for one will definitely be mourning this decision, the fact that I was literally on the bubble after a few years of training just adds a little extra salt in the wound for me personally.

RIP MM

[dubyagrip]

Well, I'm glad I got to make a run on it.  I wish I hadn't been injured.  I'll never know for sure, but I'm confident I'd have made it to MM9 before today, if I had been healthy.

Edited October 9, 2023 by dubyagrip

[matek]

9 hours ago, C8Myotome said:

I would not mind if MMS got replaced with a 20 mm block so that there is no question of if it was parallel or not

I second this opinion. If a 20mm aluminum/metal block goes through between the handles (not just touching the handle ends as some people do it), there is no doubt. There is a reason why they use it in competitions. 
I've seen multiple people go definitely wider than parallel just to be sure. And we know even between a 20mm and 30mm set there is a big difference. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by matek

[Harrison]

@Cannon is there anything we can do to help? 

[Bill Piche]

9 hours ago, Cannon said:

Hey guys! I really appreciate all the comments and feedback. Feel free to keep discussing what you would like to see. Keep it coming!  

To clarify a couple things:

1) The old Mash Monster cert is officially closed. As Bill said, the lists are frozen in time and that certification is permanently retired and the original grippers will never be used again. However, the Mash Monster name and legacy will live on as a freshened up certification in some form with different grippers and thoughtful consideration for the spirit of the certification we love.  

2) Bill and I had a great deal of discussion and deliberation over this. There were a lot of factors to consider which included everything from the lifespan of aging equipment to the fact that the Mash Monster grippers are an incredibly valuable asset when it comes to the business side of things. I do have a pretty clear picture for the type of Mash Monster certification I would like to offer. It will take some time to finalize and build. We can all anticipate a grand reopening, hopefully in 2024. 

I love seeing the ideas here. The excitement and possibilities are on full display. Mourn the endings, dream the dreams and wish the wishes. Let's hear it all!       

Matt and I have had some great conversations for weeks now about all of this.    I am super excited about the possibilities. 

 

5 hours ago, matek said:

I second this opinion. If a 20mm aluminum/metal block goes through between the handles (not just touching the handle ends as some people do it), there is no doubt. There is a reason why they use it in competitions. 
I've seen multiple people go definitely wider than parallel just to be sure. And we know even between a 20mm and 30mm set there is a big difference. 

Matt and I didn't really discuss this aspect much of the old cert versus going forward.  I am not sure why I didn't bring it up because it's been a thing in my mind for a long time. I have always wondered about this because I think if one were to gather data for the last 20 years on failed attempts "not seeing the set distance clearly"  or "the set was too deep" are probably up there at the top of the list for cause of fails.  If I were to guess.

[Vinnie]

The 20mm block seems like a good idea to me, despite that I find the block annoying because the mechanics of having to hold the gripper open and pass the block through add a dimension to the process that I think takes a few pounds off my max close.  But I agree, especially as a mash monster judge, that eyeballing the adequacy of the width of a close is a bit imprecise--so the block makes the judging easier and more accurate.  If it adds a twist to what you need to do to certify, so be it, the twist is added for everyone and it is fair.

I like the idea that the grippers start low and that you can skip levels.  This makes sense.  

SUGGESTION FOR CANNON: I hope you monetize this a little bit.  If the grippers start low and the cert is too cheap, you are gonna be sending out 50-120 as soon as they come back, with long waitlists, and no time to rate grippers!  I exaggerate, or maybe I don't.  But if you want to have a cert where you use the ACTUAL SAME GRIPPER as whoever else certed that level, then you can only have one each, and the lower ones are going to be out all the time.  If you add a little fee to each, you will make a few well-deserved dollars and also reduce demand a tiny bit, finding some happy medium where you can justify the workload by the income it generates (like, hire a mash monster clerk whose wages are covered by the cert fees).  You may have already worked through an figured a way that works for you, and you may also be willing to devote some time to it without compensation as you have in the past.  All up to you of course, but I am in favor of it being profitable for you and I think someone else should say that because you probably would get flak if you said it first.  But you already do enough for the sport, and I am not talking about Sam Bankman Fried profit or price gouging, just making it worth your time, because your life is not service to grip!

Anyway, sign me up for something around 160 to start.  That's where I left off with MM2, and I was not expecting to have much luck with the huge jump to MM3 anyway, so this gives me something to try for, when it happens.  Looking forward to it!

[Vinnie]

Another idea, just thinking out loud:

You receive the gripper.  You get however many minutes.  Within that time, you make as many attempts as you want with either hand or both hands.  You use whatever widths you want.  You get certified for whatever you can pull off of the below sets on either hand (include option for some subset of the below options, or all of them if you want):

-MMS

-20mm

-30mm

-38mm (GHP)

-CCS (IM)

-TNS

So, like, someone whose best right hand close in comp is 165 at 20mm:

1) sends for the 140.  He closes that MMS both hands.  He fails everything else lefty, but is able to TNS it righty. 

               He gets entered in the stats as 140-L-MMS and 140-R-TNS.

2) sends for 145.  Gets MMS lefty.  Gets up to CCS righty but fails TNS.  

               He is still in stats as 140-R-TNS, but gets added as 145-L-MMS and 145-R-CCS (140-L-MMS gets deleted bc he is at 145 there now).

3) sends for 150.  Fails all lefty, and gets it CCS again righty.

              He is still in stats as 140-R-TNS and 145-L-MMS, but gets added at 150-R-CCS (replacing 145-R-CCS).

4) sends for 155.  Fails all lefty, gets it 30mm righty and fails CCS.

              He is still in stats as 140-R-TNS and 150-R-CCS and 145-L-MMS, but gets added at 155-R-30mm.

5) sends for 160 and only attempts righty, who is he kidding.   Gets up to 20mm.

             He is still in stats as 140-R-TNS, 145-L-MMS, 150-R-CCS, 155-R-30mm, and gets added at 160-R-20mm.

6) sends for 165, gets it 20mm, that just replaces his 160-R-20mm and all else same.

The final stats for this guy are a spot on the TNS list (140-R-TNS); a spot on the CCS list (150-R-CCS); a spot on the 30mm list (155-R-30mm); a spot on the 20mm list (165-R-20mm); and the chance to go for 170 when he feels ready.  If he cares, he might also send for a lower gripper again if he feels left has gotten stronger or he wants to up his width on the right hand closes.  This would be a little less of a ladder and more of a cargo net?  LOL

No question there are more stats that would be involved here, but it isn't really that complicated when you would have this all in a database.  Each person's result from each cert would be in the data and sorted by computer.  You could print the list of (1) TNS from high to low; or (2) All 150 closes from TNS to MMS; or (3) All Joe Schmo's closes etc.  You could do overall and also by weight class.  You could include hand size if you want.  So many possibilities!

Again, just thinking out loud.  I think the most important thing is to make some decisions about what the cert will be, and try to stick with it, so that people who cert feel like they are being compared fairly.

[C8Myotome]

I think that given multiple set options people will still generally go for the easiest set option anyways just to use as heavier of a gripper as possible, assuming that a heavier gripper out-ranks a wider close of a lighter gripper

Also do you really want to do CCS judging....one issue with CoC certs is that a plastic card is flexible and a "CCS" can easily start turning into something else when people force it through too-narrow handles, and then it's not a CCS anymore...everything else metal is unquestionable, a plastic card is where a lot more of fudging of trying to force the card through, passing it over the handles, in front of the handles and all the subconcious things people do to try to reserve energy for doing a CCS will cause a lot of failed attempts

I always found eyeball parallel MMS a little boring as this is really not much different than closing a hose-clamp choked gripper combined with good setting technique

It would be a lot more intereseting to see 30mm or 38mm, both of these I consider narrow anyways. Or you could get really weird and do 25 mm which I don't think anyone has done before, just 20 mm I've always viewed the same thing as a choked gripper, if you're going to set a gripper 5 cm just to close 2 cm of it.