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richcottrell

wide pinch training for The Extensors?

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richcottrell

I just "discovered" ... or at least stumbled upon this video and I got me thinking... and rethinking grip extension.  I am curious what smarter people think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiOp3hxJVkw

In the beginning of this video, the part where this climber [Eric Hörst] talks about the relationship between the forearm's Extensor muscles and the ones that Contract  [the flexors] to make what we call The Pinch Grip.  Here Eric  mentioned something that was a new idea for me.

He refers tho the different arm muscles working together  as a "Co-contraction kinetic chain" where the extensors work with the contractors in order to deliver maximal force.  He goes on to show how the lower arm muscles works differently then the upper arm's Biceps and Triceps.
The point that I felt Eric was talking about differently then my current understanding, was that training the extensors does not just prevent potential grip over fatigue, but that the extensors muscles are a very active muscle group used in most any grip event (except for maybe armwrestling).  Here, when I refer to "grip" i am thinking about picking stuff up.

Some interesting ideas come at the end of this video, where Eric does what the Gripboard community would call "Wide Pinch" but Eric thinks about these same training exercises as extensor training.  I think he said "Open Handed Grip" or something like that, but we are still talking about Wide Pinch Training as is commonly referred on The GripBoard.

Now I  am thinking about the first time I ever tried to lift a 100 and 150 lb Inch style dumbbell where you attempt to "pre-cock" you wrist so the bell will not straighten your wrist out, and how fruitless that mini wrist flexion helps... and now, after thinking about Eric Horst's exercise demonstration at the beginning of this video and I am thinking "No Wonder Why!"  That wrist "pre-cock" potentially takes away much of the other strength in the lower arm.

I am not trying to say Eric Horst discovered something NEW and we all need to buy his books and chance everything we do; I  only wanted to share his video, as it did  trigger a different set of thinking for myself.

 

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Climber028

I thought this was commonly known in the grip community, tho surprisingly few climbers are aware of it. 

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Bob Callahan
14 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

I thought this was commonly known in the grip community, tho surprisingly few climbers are aware of it. 

Though they may not do it consciously, a lot of climbers do it. It's what's happens when we get tired and "chicken wing":

_mg_2409jpg.jpg

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Hopefully

On another note, I think attempting to flex the wrist is what's beneficial in an inch lift for example (or all grip activities really) not necessarily the angle of the wrist. The wrist flexors would then help parry the rotation and work in conjunction with the primary grip muscles, but if you intentionally flex it before the lift you handicap the extensors as you say.

Or am I wrong?

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climber511

I always assumed this was common knowledge - maybe because I've read all Eric's books etc.  :)

Here's one that is a personal theory of mine.  Your body will only allow a certain amount of imbalance between opposing muscle groups - say flexors and extensors,   If you get too far out of balance - you will get injured.  The imbalance will also act as a governor - and will slow (or stop) additional growth.

Edited by climber511

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Hopefully
21 minutes ago, climber511 said:

I always assumed this was common knowledge - maybe because I've read all Eric's books etc.  :)

Here's one that is a personal theory of mine.  Your body will only allow a certain amount of imbalance between opposing muscle groups - say flexors and extensors,   If you get too far out of balance - you will get injured.  The imbalance will also act as a governor - and will slow (or stop) additional growth.

This is a popular theory, it would be cool to see some litterature that supports it. Hard thing to prove or disprove though..

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Climber028

We already know mechanically that muscle imbalance causes dysfunction. Differential loading of a joint will pull it into a sub-optimal position, then when loaded heavily in this position injury is very likely. 

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Hopefully
14 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

We already know mechanically that muscle imbalance causes dysfunction. Differential loading of a joint will pull it into a sub-optimal position, then when loaded heavily in this position injury is very likely. 

Like wrist deviation? :)

Yes if the muscles affects the same joint in some way, but if it will slow down or stop growth if not. For example I have seen people believe that not training legs would hinder upper body potential as the body always strive for balance and thus wouldnt let the upper body become too big or strong if lower body is weak.

Edited by Hopefully

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Climber028

Yea I think we're saying the same thing. I don't belive there is a magic limit imposed on your muscles, but by being imbalanced you will get injured, then this limits your training. You also can't maximally contract your finger flexors without strong enough extensors to hold the wrist in place, but that same relationship holds true with many other joints. 

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Hopefully
4 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

Yea I think we're saying the same thing. I don't belive there is a magic limit imposed on your muscles, but by being imbalanced you will get injured, then this limits your training. You also can't maximally contract your finger flexors without strong enough extensors to hold the wrist in place, but that same relationship holds true with many other joints. 

Yes, sure.

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Climber028

I also don't think any of this actually matters. Everybody I explain anatomy to is stronger than me so ultimately it's just trivia. 

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richcottrell

Again: I have never heard anyone doing Wide Pinch Work talk about it as their Extensor Training

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Onerepman

In the example shown in the video at 2:00, I thought that this was more of active insufficiency rather than your extensors playing a role in the finger flexion. With your wrist drooped over like what he shown, your flexors are too shortened to be able to apply an effective force. Through slight wrist extension, you obtain the ideal length-tension relationship. If however your wrist is fully extended, you're exceed this ideal length-tension relationship and therefore generate submaximal finger flexion.

Edited by Onerepman
Clarification.
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Hopefully
11 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

I also don't think any of this actually matters. Everybody I explain anatomy to is stronger than me so ultimately it's just trivia. 

Yup.. but I think a basic understanding is important in order to maximize your potential. You have to know what you are doing.

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wobbler

Hub seems to work extensors also

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AdamTGlass

Rich if you ever invest in a 3”x4” Saxon bar this whole thing will make instant sense to you 

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slazbob
12 hours ago, richcottrell said:

Again: I have never heard anyone doing Wide Pinch Work talk about it as their Extensor Training

Years ago David Horne mentioned his extensors were fried from blob work and I didn’t understand it back then. 

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Bob Callahan
21 hours ago, Onerepman said:

In the example shown in the video at 2:00, I thought that this was more of active insufficiency rather than your extensors playing a role in the finger flexion. With your wrist drooped over like what he shown, your flexors are too shortened to be able to apply an effective force. Through slight wrist extension, you obtain the ideal length-tension relationship. If however your wrist is fully extended, you're exceed this ideal length-tension relationship and therefore generate submaximal finger flexion.

Yes.

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richcottrell
22 hours ago, Onerepman said:

In the example shown in the video at 2:00, I thought that this was more of active insufficiency rather than your extensors playing a role in the finger flexion. With your wrist drooped over like what he shown, your flexors are too shortened to be able to apply an effective force. Through slight wrist extension, you obtain the ideal length-tension relationship. If however your wrist is fully extended, you're exceed this ideal length-tension relationship and therefore generate submaximal finger flexion.

funny to reread this a few times and then see Jedd posted a video yesterday where he was basically talking about the same thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKcUsuqb5HA

 

When I was talking about my first time trying to lift the 100# and 150# Inch bells, I was describing my first [and very futile] attempts as myself trying to "pre-cock" my wrist but here Jedd uses the term "goose necking" for the same idea.
While he does not mention the Extensors being part of the equation, I am learning more every day.

BTW:
This whole thread was started after I finally went to the Asian Produce market in South Philly to buy about 20 pounds of Mung Beans so I can finally start training "dirty rice" or the sand bucket; or rice bucket, depending on what you call it... but i am basically trying to train my extensors these days as a more conscious thing.

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richcottrell
13 hours ago, AdamTGlass said:

Rich if you ever invest in a 3”x4” Saxon bar this whole thing will make instant sense to you 

When Adam Glass tells you to invest in something, you MUST listen!
 [and while I am happy to give Richard Sorin my money,  my wife will kill me; so I will have to wait till after the holidays to pull this trigger.]

That said, I already have the FBBC 2x5" Saxon that I sadly (and stupidly) do not use enough!

I will have to start thinking  of "Saxon Bar" differently, as while I already felt the difference between  2inch and 3 inch is a HUGE difference; but NOW -- in regards to this conversation -- maybe that wide grip of  3" brings the extensors into the pinch workout, where the 2" does not?

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Onerepman
2 hours ago, richcottrell said:

funny to reread this a few times and then see Jedd posted a video yesterday where he was basically talking about the same thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKcUsuqb5HA

Here's a good photo on what I was saying. Slight extension of the wrist for finger flexion will essentially be #2 on the graph; drooped or fully flexed wrist will be a #1; fully extended wrist will be a #3 or #4. 

maxresdefault (2).jpg

Edited by Onerepman

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FrankSobotka

This video from Jedd makes too much damn sense to me. 

For a time I thought I was getting weaker on the WW but maybe I was just engaging my wrist too much 

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mcalpine1986

This may not be wide pinch but Using the Rolling thunder makes my extensors more sore than direct movements and they have grown since doing them so they must get hit hard.

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