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LebaneseChampion

How Many Of You Guys Believe Will Ever Close Coc#4 ?

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Mike Sharkey

I'm finding it hard to wrap my head around Paul knight and Paul savage not being able to close a #1 at the start. How is that possible?

I just can't imagine going from finding a 1 difficult to actually closing a 4, the difference between the two is enormous. I could close a 1 off the bat but there is no way in the world id ever close a 4.

One of the greatest KB athletes of all time, Sergey Mishin, couldn't even put a single 24kg bell overhead when he first tried. Had to use a stick to go between the handle to use both hands. Went on to dominate in almost incomparable manner.

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PeterSweden

He did not look like he would be an athlete of worldclass :)

Think arms and legs and a bit fat :P

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Mephistopholes

I'm finding it hard to wrap my head around Paul knight and Paul savage not being able to close a #1 at the start. How is that possible?

I just can't imagine going from finding a 1 difficult to actually closing a 4, the difference between the two is enormous. I could close a 1 off the bat but there is no way in the world id ever close a 4.

PK has been training grippers off and on since the late 1990's.. and (correct me if im wrong) but he didnt close any #4's until 2009-2010'ish... so thats over 10 years of dedication to it. ...and he made it happen. and i cant help but think of all the people who told him, or posts he read along the way stating how rare or impossible it was to close a #4 before he got there.

It's all about putting the work in. I hate to use cliches, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

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Mikael Siversson

I have competed in grip against individuals on and off 'performance enhancers'. They placed behind me when off and in front of me when on. The grip strength they gained was across the board; grippers, pinch, thick bar and wrist.

I don't think genetics come into it for a 4 mms close, i think nigh on anybody can do that, just some much easier/quicker than others. For me it too years and years of day in day out grind, working my hands and wrists consistently in my job 6 days a week, sometimes year round with no holidays as well as a lot of specialised grip training and general weights training, week in week out. Also i dont feel performance enhancers come into it as much as people think as there's much more tendon strength involved than regular gym stuff.

Edited by Mikael Siversson

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Wannagrip

Look at the top of the Mash Monster ladder. The top tiers. The #3 was in reality a easy to those guys.

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mightyjoe

...dont mean to get all deep on the topic, but the answer to this thread is found in this clip.

http://youtu.be/MEGSiX0JA-s

There's a message to be taken from this video Tommy but I like what Steve Jobs said better. Steve said that if

one is not passionate about what it is they set out to do then they will most likely fail. I've seen this quite a bit actually in real life.

What happens is someone is sometimes trying to please others or impress others but they lack the passion (love what they are doing)

for what they are trying to achieve and 99% of the time they simply fail. Did they put in the hard work? Absolutely! Did they want it really bad?

Absolutely! But did they have a passion for what they was trying to achieve? If there's no passion behind one's drive they will eventually give up.

Bill has a good point as well but if taken to its logical conclusion then it would imply that there actually are no limits. This may sound good in theory (wishful thinking) but is far from reality. For example, why not set your goal to close the Hercules and then the World Class would be easy. Again, sounds great but it assumes there's no limits. One can want to close a Hercules gripper (or for that matter, Universe or Super Galaxy) but no matter

how bad they want it, it is not going to happen. It goes back to setting realistic goals and then establishing a realistic time frame to accomplish said goal. Notice that since the credit card rule has been established for the #3 and #4 grippers, the rate at which one certifies has slowed way down. Drastically!

Please note this is internet talk where one can easily assume and attach meaning to others posts. This post is not to offend anyone and there's absolutely no bad intent here nor am I attacking someone personally. It's simply the way I see things and also a different way of looking at things!

I eagerly await others views on this as well!!! :)

This is turning out to be a great thread!!! :rock

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hellswindstaff

...dont mean to get all deep on the topic, but the answer to this thread is found in this clip.

http://youtu.be/MEGSiX0JA-s

1++

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Wannagrip

@Paul Savage,

You bet it does. This is like saying I can become an olympic sprinter by "working hard". Or, a brain surgeon. Or, a pro basketball player. Grip is no different.

Anyone who has the ability to close a 4 was at the front of the line for hand strength genetics.

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Mikael Siversson

One thing people forget or rather never think about is that grip is one of hardest areas of strength to gain in. Grip was so vital for survival for our ancestors that virtually no-one (if not sick or injured) has a weak grip the way untrained people have a weak bench press for example. My oldest daughter closed, without any training whatsover, a 41 lb IM Sport gripper TNS. Not a single human on the planet can close a gripper five times harder TNS and very few can close one four times harder. The next one up she tried was around 60lbs so in reality the strongest men on the planet are probably four times better and this is in a rather technical grip feat. Think about this for a moment, the most monsterous of men are, after years of training about four times better than a 14-year old girl with no training at all. Lets take another one like 2'' vbar lift. The giants amongst us with huge vbar strength would fail to lift three times more than said girl, after years of training.

in essence the vast majority of people training grip vastly underestimate just how difficult it is to improve grip strength, compared to just about any other areas of strength.

Edited by Mikael Siversson

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Paul Savage

@Paul Savage,

You bet it does. This is like saying I can become an olympic sprinter by "working hard". Or, a brain surgeon. Or, a pro basketball player. Grip is no different.

Anyone who has the ability to close a 4 was at the front of the line for hand strength genetics.

It's not like i think someone can get to being the strongest man in the world without having freak genetics, but this is a very specialised thing and it's not as difficult as you think. I'll explain why - go back over the years for worlds strongest man competitors and have a look at there strength levels. Very, very few of them could pull a true (powerlifting style) raw deadlift of 800lbs up until recent years, even some of the winners, samuelsson, virastyuk, pfister, even the 5 time winner pudzainowski certainly wouldn't have managed it through most of his career, if ever. Now look at worlds strongest man competitors in 2013, instead of struggling to find the odd person that could manage it, you'd struggle to find competitors that couldn't do this, and the best is 8 reps with over this weight in the finals (after other events). My point, things move on, grip is a young sport.

As for you saying you have to have top notch genetics to do it, i can't speak for others apart from maybe steve g, but how could i possibly have these genetics when i couldn't do a #1 or even pinch three 5kg plates before training? I started my grip work with plastic store grippers and pinch training with two 5kg plates. After over 3 months of training (think i used towels as well as weights too) i got my own coc grippers, still couldn't close the #1 both hands, only strong hand. Surely if i had some kind of hyper-responsive difference to other people i would have jumped up huge with newbie gains. It took me 5 months to get an easy #2 with both hands, over a year to get an easy #3 strong hand and over 2 years to get an average #3 strong hand. Now it's been 8-9 years of specific grip training, 11 years of general weights/strength training, and i've still not managed an average #4 both hands mms.

Also it's not like i've just been 'training', i've put some peoples = to 80-90 years into those 8-9 years of grip training because i have firstly done a lot of long training sessions, often over 5 hours, and my job works my grip to the point where i've not done grippers in several months then come back to pr's at a world class level. I regular use thick bar lifting of 2","2.5, "3, all the way upto "5.5, all kinds of different pinch, even including hub style, wrist rolling, i could even specifically train for dinnie stone lifting, and crush grip is probably what get's taxed the most as i have to sqeeze a wheel (again, 3 different sizes of thickness) in a crushing manner as i wind the carpet rolls on. It's no wonder my strongest lifts in the gym are front squats, deficient/sumo deadlifts, one arm rows etc these are all the things i do the most in work. Not many people have a job as such and i do use it to get stronger/plan things out as best i can just as i do with training outside of work. I think this a big reason of why i have improved so much, this along with the fact that i wanted it so badly.

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Cannon

If the past is any indication of the future - way less than 1% of people who make this a goal and train long and hard for it will EVER close a #4. I'm been on the GB for a decade or so and I can probably count on one hand all the fours that have been closed. And many have tried. I don't mean to discourage anyone of course but it's a very "rare air" feat of grip strength. Good Luck to all though aiming for it!!!

This. Good post.

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bwwm

I think a lot more people will be closing the #4 when Aaron Corcorran publishes his e-book.

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PeterSweden

I think a lot more people will be closing the #4 when Aaron Corcorran publishes his e-book.

Tell me more about this :)

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Mikael Siversson

Yes today's strongmen are stronger than yesterday's but look what happened when the CC rule was introduced. Instead of people quickly adjusting and continue the avalange of new Captains of Crush everything came to a near standstill and still has not recovered. Grip is much harder to gain in, in general, than dealifts, bench presses etc., as I explained above. As Chris pointed out we go through these discussions every now and again with same result; a considerable number of people claiming they will be different, they will be ones reaching the goal. They train like animals for a few years, get injured and retire. It is far better, long term, to set small and realistic goals and not worry about #3's and #4's.

@Paul Savage,

You bet it does. This is like saying I can become an olympic sprinter by "working hard". Or, a brain surgeon. Or, a pro basketball player. Grip is no different.

Anyone who has the ability to close a 4 was at the front of the line for hand strength genetics.

It's not like i think someone can get to being the strongest man in the world without having freak genetics, but this is a very specialised thing and it's not as difficult as you think. I'll explain why - go back over the years for worlds strongest man competitors and have a look at there strength levels. Very, very few of them could pull a true (powerlifting style) raw deadlift of 800lbs up until recent years, even some of the winners, samuelsson, virastyuk, pfister, even the 5 time winner pudzainowski certainly wouldn't have managed it through most of his career, if ever. Now look at worlds strongest man competitors in 2013, instead of struggling to find the odd person that could manage it, you'd struggle to find competitors that couldn't do this, and the best is 8 reps with over this weight in the finals (after other events). My point, things move on, grip is a young sport.

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Mikael Siversson

You don't 'make it' in grip competitions by going all out trying to close a #4 at all cost. You succeed by taking your time and replace one small achievable goal with another.

Quite frankly I have little interest in competing against people who are so easily discouraged (as you outlined above).

What we are saying is simply that almost all of the people who say they will eventually close a #4, will fail.

Overconfidence will always attract justified critisism.

i.e. responded to my questions by referring to a guy, or numerous guys, who didnt make it in grip, i would have likely never came back. and do you know why??

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Geralt

the main thing about threads like this that get my goat is the fact that a new guy (usually one who doesnt know any better) gets in here and says hes gonna close a #4, then a bunch of the guys hit this dude with the "ya whatever". and what that does, is the opposite of promote grip. fact.

most guys that get into grip these days seem to be getting in with the learning of the heavier tsg's. i did. and then when the new guy gets told he'll basically never make it to that level with tsg's (which is his first semi-grip experience), do you know what hes gonna do??.. hes gonna walk away from grip without ever even learning anything more advanced.. and crap like that doesnt grow gripsport. that same guy (had he not been made a joke of) may have very well gone on to learn himself that he may not be cut out for it.. but by the time he does, he will have probably not only learned tons about grip by sticking around, but he might have very well done some other decent grip lifts or feats. and not only that, but its also likely hed have gotten others interested in grip during his journey. ..not to mention he may actually have had the stuff to eventually get a #4 close done. who knows.

ill put it this way, if PK and Eric Milfeld would have been negative the first time i hooked up with them when i asked a boatload of questions about grip, grip-pers, i.e. responded to my questions by referring to a guy, or numerous guys, who didnt make it in grip, i would have likely never came back. and do you know why?? because my thoughts would have been "jeez.. i guess these guys know what they are talking about.. they have been in grip for a long time... maybe theyre right.. i shouldnt waste my time..." but instead, when i asked about stuff like the #4, or an inch DB lift, or pinching 2-45s with 1 hand, they had classy replies, such as "yes you can do this too, but dont rush things and get hurt. grip takes a very long time to develop. and its taken a long time to get to where im at today. your gonna need to get serious if you want to make this happen, and heres how, etc, etc." ....and this is the kind of answer that grows gripsport.

..and i dont know if this helps anyone out, but ive never seen a #4 closer get in one of these threads and tell someone else that they cant do the same.

:rock

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benjaminBoy

I think a lot more people will be closing the #4 when Aaron Corcorran publishes his e-book.

I'd like to know more about this e-book Aaron Corcorra is making.

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Mephistopholes

the main thing about threads like this that get my goat is the fact that a new guy (usually one who doesnt know any better) gets in here and says hes gonna close a #4, then a bunch of the guys hit this dude with the "ya whatever". and what that does, is the opposite of promote grip. fact.

most guys that get into grip these days seem to be getting in with the learning of the heavier tsg's. i did. and then when the new guy gets told he'll basically never make it to that level with tsg's (which is his first semi-grip experience), do you know what hes gonna do??.. hes gonna walk away from grip without ever even learning anything more advanced.. and crap like that doesnt grow gripsport. that same guy (had he not been made a joke of) may have very well gone on to learn himself that he may not be cut out for it.. but by the time he does, he will have probably not only learned tons about grip by sticking around, but he might have very well done some other decent grip lifts or feats. and not only that, but its also likely hed have gotten others interested in grip during his journey. ..not to mention he may actually have had the stuff to eventually get a #4 close done. who knows.

ill put it this way, if PK and Eric Milfeld would have been negative the first time i hooked up with them when i asked a boatload of questions about grip, grip-pers, i.e. responded to my questions by referring to a guy, or numerous guys, who didnt make it in grip, i would have likely never came back. and do you know why?? because my thoughts would have been "jeez.. i guess these guys know what they are talking about.. they have been in grip for a long time... maybe theyre right.. i shouldnt waste my time..." but instead, when i asked about stuff like the #4, or an inch DB lift, or pinching 2-45s with 1 hand, they had classy replies, such as "yes you can do this too, but dont rush things and get hurt. grip takes a very long time to develop. and its taken a long time to get to where im at today. your gonna need to get serious if you want to make this happen, and heres how, etc, etc." ....and this is the kind of answer that grows gripsport.

..and i dont know if this helps anyone out, but ive never seen a #4 closer get in one of these threads and tell someone else that they cant do the same.

Truth.

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climber511

I didn't and don't mean to discourage anyone from chasing their dream of closing the 4 or any other goal one might have. I do want to discourage the training methods I see so many people new to the sport seem to be using.right off the bat. The training methods that someone new should be using and those of someone with a few years under their belt should be quite different. Build a base of all around grip and wrist strength - continue to build that as you begin to specialize with the grippers. Maybe you'll be "that" guy who can ignore this advice - or maybe you'll be the one with the injury - chase hard - but chase smart.

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mightyjoe

I think a lot more people will be closing the #4 when Aaron Corcorran publishes his e-book.

I often wondered why Aaron never wrote a book on grip strength.

Aaron's a very bright individual IMO!

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LebaneseChampion

my 50 years old uncle came from Canada this week, to Beirut, and i let him try the Captains of Crush. he took the 3.5 no set and closed more than half, until 1.5 inch is left (as much as i can close it).. he has very strong fingers and pinch.

he never trained with grippers, but he worked with his hands a lot

he could not close the 1.5 , i tried to teach him how to set it ( but i assure you it wasn't well set, it was just the first day)..didn't set it right, he can close the #2.5 - #2 and #1.5 the same way. his hand is strong when it's open, but not in the last mm. probably because of the set technique

his fingers are short but very strong. he pinch stronger than me, but i can close the #1.5 more than 12 times.

so talking about genetics, i believe he's got it. even without training...

he's excited to buy grippers and start training, even at 50, he's still doing sports, he never stopped. he's my childhood hero

he told me his forearm was a lot bigger few years ago.

that's good motivation for me also to see infront of me how thick i can get my fingers to become, and how strong my pinch can be

Concerning everyone that has nearly reached a block, and is not advancing, i found a rather secret strength training. i don't really want to start sharing it before i apply it for at least 2-4 weeks(now i am resting). as soon as i see it's really worth it, i'll share it with you all, and we'll see what we'll be closing.

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Chez

You don't 'make it' in grip competitions by going all out trying to close a #4 at all cost. You succeed by taking your time and replace one small achievable goal with another.

Quite frankly I have little interest in competing against people who are so easily discouraged (as you outlined above).

What we are saying is simply that almost all of the people who say they will eventually close a #4, will fail.

Overconfidence will always attract justified critisism.

i.e. responded to my questions by referring to a guy, or numerous guys, who didnt make it in grip, i would have likely never came back. and do you know why??

One thing I agree with is setting small short term goals along the way. I have done that throughout my training. I don't understand the guys who hold off certifying on lower grippers along the way. If you're strong enough, grab the certifications when you can. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with not certifying on the lower grippers, but it doesn't make sense to me. The #4 MMS is a very long term goal for me. I actually arrange gripper certifications in the order of difficulty. Next for me is the MM4 certification and after that is the GHP 8 certification/MM5. On the way to the my COC #3 certification I certified MM0, MM1 both hands and MM2 both hands. Setting these small goals in order keeps me motivated and hungry. I never look ahead of the task at hand. Right now I'm super concentrated on the MM4. I believe in slow steady gains which eventually accumulate to huge gains over time. I also don't use negatives and other dangerous training techniques. I always perform low rep closes with the heaviest gripper I can handle in my workouts. I don't believe the hand was meant to hold a gripper closed which was cheated shut. That seems that a super overload on the tendons and just asking for trouble.

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Sam Scott

You don't 'make it' in grip competitions by going all out trying to close a #4 at all cost. You succeed by taking your time and replace one small achievable goal with another.

Quite frankly I have little interest in competing against people who are so easily discouraged (as you outlined above).

What we are saying is simply that almost all of the people who say they will eventually close a #4, will fail.

Overconfidence will always attract justified critisism.

i.e. responded to my questions by referring to a guy, or numerous guys, who didnt make it in grip, i would have likely never came back. and do you know why??

One thing I agree with is setting small short term goals along the way. I have done that throughout my training. I don't understand the guys who hold off certifying on lower grippers along the way. If you're strong enough, grab the certifications when you can. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with not certifying on the lower grippers, but it doesn't make sense to me. The #4 MMS is a very long term goal for me. I actually arrange gripper certifications in the order of difficulty. Next for me is the MM4 certification and after that is the GHP 8 certification/MM5. On the way to the my COC #3 certification I certified MM0, MM1 both hands and MM2 both hands. Setting these small goals in order keeps me motivated and hungry. I never look ahead of the task at hand. Right now I'm super concentrated on the MM4. I believe in slow steady gains which eventually accumulate to huge gains over time. I also don't use negatives and other dangerous training techniques. I always perform low rep closes with the heaviest gripper I can handle in my workouts. I don't believe the hand was meant to hold a gripper closed which was cheated shut. That seems that a super overload on the tendons and just asking for trouble.

Everybody who has certified on the MM3 has eventually deepset closed a #4.

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jchapman

Just one post above yours, Chez hasn't deep set a #4 (to my knowledge, he can correct me if I am in error).

You don't 'make it' in grip competitions by going all out trying to close a #4 at all cost. You succeed by taking your time and replace one small achievable goal with another.

Quite frankly I have little interest in competing against people who are so easily discouraged (as you outlined above).

What we are saying is simply that almost all of the people who say they will eventually close a #4, will fail.

Overconfidence will always attract justified critisism.

i.e. responded to my questions by referring to a guy, or numerous guys, who didnt make it in grip, i would have likely never came back. and do you know why??

One thing I agree with is setting small short term goals along the way. I have done that throughout my training. I don't understand the guys who hold off certifying on lower grippers along the way. If you're strong enough, grab the certifications when you can. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with not certifying on the lower grippers, but it doesn't make sense to me. The #4 MMS is a very long term goal for me. I actually arrange gripper certifications in the order of difficulty. Next for me is the MM4 certification and after that is the GHP 8 certification/MM5. On the way to the my COC #3 certification I certified MM0, MM1 both hands and MM2 both hands. Setting these small goals in order keeps me motivated and hungry. I never look ahead of the task at hand. Right now I'm super concentrated on the MM4. I believe in slow steady gains which eventually accumulate to huge gains over time. I also don't use negatives and other dangerous training techniques. I always perform low rep closes with the heaviest gripper I can handle in my workouts. I don't believe the hand was meant to hold a gripper closed which was cheated shut. That seems that a super overload on the tendons and just asking for trouble.

Everybody who has certified on the MM3 has eventually deepset closed a #4.

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Forever

You don't 'make it' in grip competitions by going all out trying to close a #4 at all cost. You succeed by taking your time and replace one small achievable goal with another.

Quite frankly I have little interest in competing against people who are so easily discouraged (as you outlined above).

What we are saying is simply that almost all of the people who say they will eventually close a #4, will fail.

Overconfidence will always attract justified critisism.

i.e. responded to my questions by referring to a guy, or numerous guys, who didnt make it in grip, i would have likely never came back. and do you know why??

One thing I agree with is setting small short term goals along the way. I have done that throughout my training. I don't understand the guys who hold off certifying on lower grippers along the way. If you're strong enough, grab the certifications when you can. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with not certifying on the lower grippers, but it doesn't make sense to me. The #4 MMS is a very long term goal for me. I actually arrange gripper certifications in the order of difficulty. Next for me is the MM4 certification and after that is the GHP 8 certification/MM5. On the way to the my COC #3 certification I certified MM0, MM1 both hands and MM2 both hands. Setting these small goals in order keeps me motivated and hungry. I never look ahead of the task at hand. Right now I'm super concentrated on the MM4. I believe in slow steady gains which eventually accumulate to huge gains over time. I also don't use negatives and other dangerous training techniques. I always perform low rep closes with the heaviest gripper I can handle in my workouts. I don't believe the hand was meant to hold a gripper closed which was cheated shut. That seems that a super overload on the tendons and just asking for trouble.

Very good post Chez, like your game plan. Certify step by step, keep the hunger and fuel the drive Keep it up :rock

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