Are We Killing Our Hands?

[Cannon]

This holiday, I had an interesting conversation with my sister, a 4th year med. student, but by no means a specialist in hand health. It started when I showed her the back of my left hand. From bending on Saturday, it seems that a bit of fluid has accumulated there. Apparently, tendons run inside sheaths that protect and lubricate them. She thinks I popped a hole in the sheath and a little lubricant squeezed out. Nothing serious and it will only take a few days for the fluid to be carried away.

This got us talking about the various aches and pains that come with the gripping and bending territory. It is her opinion that the joints in the hand just aren't meant for this type of heavy load. She didn't deny that it is possible to significantly strengthen what the joints are capable of supporting, but she questions whether this type of "overload" is ever healthy. In her opinion, in the case of specialized hand training, very strong does not necessarily equal very healthy.

In a nutshell, her point was that it might be great to strengthen your hands and meet your goals, but understand that you're not doing much more than accelerating the aging of your hands. She thinks I can expect to have problems with arthritis if I keep up grip training.

I offered the example of individuals like Richard Sorin or David Horne who have been training at a high level for many years. Also, the countless people that identify themselves as "geezers." They are still experiencing healthy gains. She only said, "Well, you're not them. You'll be lucky to get through this with no permanent damage."

We also got into a whole conversation about how this is any different than training the rest of the body. What about a 700lb deadlift? Did training to get there cause more damage than good? She said it's different because of how the muscle groups are organized, the size of the muscle groups and their support network, and most importantly, the intended anatomical purpose of the muscles, tendons, bones, joints, etc. That is to say that our hands just aren't meant to do this type of work.

I asked, what about people that do manual labor their whole lives? Her answer, "Most get arthritis." What about cavemen? You've gotta believe that cavemen had to have strong hands. Her answer, "They probably had arthritis too, but they also only had about a 25 year life expectancy."

So, what do you guys think? In the long run, are we killing our hands? How can we expect to use and abuse them like this and not suffer the consequences? I try really hard to not over-train, let injuries heal, and practice good hand health. I am determined to proceed and meet my goals. I would like to think I'll be healthier for going through it...

[Yersinia]

i want strong hands that get crappy at old age instead of girly nancy hands thats healthy when im old =)))

[CoC#3]

Very good post bro. I appreciate her view completely, and i see where she is coming from, but with proper care of the hands i don't see that much of a problem. This comes from someone who probably does close to 200 max gripper singles/negs in a week plus a lot of pinching and thick bar to top that (i suspect mr. Kinney himself is probably the only other grip trainee that used this sort of volume). I spend most of the time i am not training in active recovery (light extensor work, closing light grippers, light stretching) and i have a lot of contrast baths (these really help with recovery, anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are on about). This pretty much keeps my hands healthy and so far, i have not experienced even the slightest hand injury.

Proper nutrition is important aswell, yes, even for grip athletes. Make sure you are getting enough protein and also supplement with fish oil to keep joints healthy.

To sum up, our hands are not made to last forever. That is the way of the world. It is pretty normal to have arthritis in later life.

[Niels]

It also depends on genetics. If you have someone with arthritis in your family it is more probable that you get it too at old age. So everyone could get athritis with or without hard grip training.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Niels

[nickr104]

We might be killing our hand and then again we may not be But how much different is this then the millons of people who smoke because they enjoy it. Some live long lives and some live short. If it was up to doctors we would never do or eat anything we enjoy. I would be willing to bet by the time I am 50 or 60 my hands will still be fine other than I have the hands of a 50 or 60 year old.

[Cannon]

If it was up to doctors we would never do or eat anything we enjoy.

This is a good point. My wife had back surgery and the doctor actually told her, "If it were up to me, I would tell you to never lift anything off the ground again no matter how heavy; not even a bag of groceries or your kid."

[Starkmann]

It's no different than any other training. If you train intelligently with an eye to the long road, it will benefit you in the long run. When you lose sight of the heath benefits and begin "sacrificing" your body to a certain weight or certification, that is when it costs you in health. You can see this echoed in many professional athletes and laborers of all type.

Don't train through the pain.

of course we all slip up occasionally.

[David Horne]

My hands are all fine, and this after 2 decades of training, and 17 years of grip contests.

I have had a conversation with my doctor in the past about injuries that I have picked up, and he said that the benefits from the all-round body training I do far outway a few injuries here and there.

David

[Scott Styles]

Most here would probably be better off from a health perspective to do only moderate grip work. Living simply to maintain your body takes a lot of the fun out of life though. It's not isolated to grip work.

[CoC#3]

Most here would probably be better off from a health perspective to do only moderate grip work. Living simply to maintain your body takes a lot of the fun out of life though. It's not isolated to grip work.

Very good post. It is my belief that you can close a #'3 doing moderate grip work. In order to close a #4 you have to go beyond this and do training that may have some destructive effect on the hands.

[lifesnotfair]

There was a thread about heavy excercises and health not too long ago, I believe it mentioned getting red spots in your eyes because of going too heavy when squatting, or something like that.

I can't remember who it was, but someone said: Lift heavy and die like a man!!

That sounds funny, but it can be applied here as well! Forget that! Just do what's been stated here, don't train through pain, take good care of your hands and keep getting stronger.

[MARKR]

There was a thread about heavy excercises and health not too long ago, I believe it mentioned getting red spots in your eyes because of going too heavy when squatting, or something like that.

I can't remember who it was, but someone said: Lift heavy and die like a man!!

That sounds funny, but it can be applied here as well! Forget that! Just do what's been stated here, don't train through pain, take good care of your hands and keep getting stronger.

I believe alot of (not all) joint problems/ arthritis comes from poor diet rather than any type of labour or training a person might do.

Alot of people blame a certain job that they had to do in the past for damaging joints.I know people who have bad knees or other joint problems and have never done any manual labour let alone training.

As others have said genetics can play apart in it but alot of the time it is poor diet and lack of exercise

[Teemu I]

Personally, I think it's the really high volumes of monotonous work that will/can lead to "killing our hands". Balanced grip training that is done mostly for quite low volume if compared to actual manual labour, shouldn't be that taxing, even at intense levels.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Teemu I

[climber511]

I want to live a life where I have worn out every single body part from having LIVED to the absolute limit possible for me.

[GoJu]

I want to live a life where I have worn out every single body part from having LIVED to the absolute limit possible for me.

HERE HERE!

[John Beatty]

I want to live a life where I have worn out every single body part from having LIVED to the absolute limit possible for me.

Said like I'll want to talk when I'm old, too. Bravo!

[j.scribner]

I agree with Nick and Chris(Climber)... you will probably have some arthritis with advanced age. It's natural. I DO notice mine gets a lot worse when I don't work my hands for awhile, so I keep doing this stuff. Keeps me limber. If you don't have arthritis in the hands, you will probably have it in several other spots; knees, hips ankles or spine, so keep exercising them, too. You are in much greater danger of dying of a myocardial infarction (if you don't exercise your heart muscle- read 'cardio' between the lines here) or lung disease (if you are a smoker) than ending up debilitated from grip exercise. Obesity will get you before all else, because your heart, a muscle the size of your fist, has to push blood through every cell in your body (including those fat cells) It can't do it if it's flabby and out of shape, or if your lungs are shot, and can't get oxygen to it. Medical personnel are not the best sources of fitness advice. Medical students are at the bottom of that food chain (and I don't mean any disrespect here). They are mentored by an establishment that has a vested interest in prescripted medications, and a huge percentage of doctors who smoke, don't exercise, and are obese.

Bottom line- keep exercising your whole body, do cardio religiously, don't be obese, and find a supplement regimen that works for you. You'll be a strong "geezer" someday, like Climber... and that old guy is strong

John Scribner

[milkbone]

My sister and brother-in-law have told me (jokingly) I'm going to give myself CTS if I keep doing this stuff (grip training). Both have had corrective surgery for CTS and neither have ever done any grip work in their lifetime. How many people have arthritis that never did manual labor jobs? ... lots. I'll take my chances and do something different than the majority in hopes of achieving a different end result.

I've also noticed I get more aches and pains in my hands when I don't train my grip for long periods of time.

[Number Ten Ox]

Great topic guys! I have aften heard the "you're going to get arthritis someday" comment from folks (right after they usually say "oooh, ahh, wow! etc).

Lets address this topic again in 40 years when we all have a bit more experieance. By then maybe we can all afford tendon replacement surgery.

[Biggerfoot]

Actually, arthritis is why I started grip training. I have it in my left thumb (hip too) and grip training has really helped to all but remove the constant pain. Hack squats have really helped my hip.

[Cannon]

Actually, arthritis is why I started grip training. I have it in my left thumb (hip too) and grip training has really helped to all but remove the constant pain. Hack squats have really helped my hip.

And this goes back to what Scott said, "Most here would probably be better off from a health perspective to do only moderate grip work."

Sam followed with his opinion that most people could close the #3 with moderate grip work.

Biggerfoot, I see that closing the #3 is one of your goals. How close are you? Do you think you're doctor would actually recommend that you train to reach that level? I am guessing that we (those of us at the Gripboard) would define "moderate grip work" much differently than the rest of the population. I actually disagree with Sam because I consider what I'm doing to get to the #3 to be more than "moderate" training. But, I don't disagree that I could likely scale it back to something moderate and still get there eventually.

Just more thoughts. This is all great conversation, which is all I hoped to instigate!

[GetAGrip87]

I'll take my chances.

I'm off for another hard grip workout!

[Cannon]

And this goes back to what Scott said, "Most here would probably be better off from a health perspective to do only moderate grip work."

Sam followed with his opinion that most people could close the #3 with moderate grip work.

Biggerfoot, I see that closing the #3 is one of your goals. How close are you? Do you think you're doctor would actually recommend that you train to reach that level? I am guessing that we (those of us at the Gripboard) would define "moderate grip work" much differently than the rest of the population. I actually disagree with Sam because I consider what I'm doing to get to the #3 to be more than "moderate" training. But, I don't disagree that I could likely scale it back to something moderate and still get there eventually.

Just more thoughts. This is all great conversation, which is all I hoped to instigate!

Wait, so I guess I do agree with Sam after all.

I guess what I meant to say is that I don't think of my red-faced, all out, balls-to-the-wall gripper attempts to be a "moderate" activity despite the fact that I'm only training to close the BBSM. I try to bring this crazy intensity to every rep in every workout.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Cannon

[Scott Styles]

The definition for moderate grip work depends on your potential. Dave Morton training to close the #3 was probably moderate grip work. Me doing the same is not. I experienced knuckle pain doing KTA to get the #2.

Moderate grip work could also be argued to be a slower, but more sure way to build and maintain healthy, strong hands over the long term. While your peak may be lower in the near term, there's no garuntee it won't ultimately surpass what you can achieve with intense training.

Moderate grip work is not regularly doing severe negatives, heavy steel bending, or max effort tearing. Many on the board go for max effort attempts weekly. I think that is one of the best ways to shorten your training lifespan and ensure problems will occur as you age.

The challenge is to get your work in by training around the lift in addition to the lift itself. I think if that is done well along with paying attention to hand health, one reduces the risk of long term problems. I credit grip work for my healthy hands in spite of 10-12 hour days on the computer.

[Biggerfoot]

Actually, arthritis is why I started grip training. I have it in my left thumb (hip too) and grip training has really helped to all but remove the constant pain. Hack squats have really helped my hip.

And this goes back to what Scott said, "Most here would probably be better off from a health perspective to do only moderate grip work."

Sam followed with his opinion that most people could close the #3 with moderate grip work.

Biggerfoot, I see that closing the #3 is one of your goals. How close are you? Do you think you're doctor would actually recommend that you train to reach that level? I am guessing that we (those of us at the Gripboard) would define "moderate grip work" much differently than the rest of the population. I actually disagree with Sam because I consider what I'm doing to get to the #3 to be more than "moderate" training. But, I don't disagree that I could likely scale it back to something moderate and still get there eventually.

Just more thoughts. This is all great conversation, which is all I hoped to instigate!

Well, the doctor only suggested exercise. Since I have always lifted weights, I figured if it does not hurt, then I'll do it. However, I do it within reason. For example, I go really light on pitches with my bad thumb but I still work it. Distance running used to be my silver bullet for trimming down, but now I am limited to light treadmill work and bicycling due to my hip. I stopped squatting for a long time but since I started using my hack squat, I have virtually no hip pain and can feel normal again. I have to be careful...my father has had both hips replaced due to years of basketball.

I am probably about 1/2 to 1/4 inch to closing the #3. I can close the BBSM regularly now. I am looking forward to trying the new IM 2.5 too. I credit grip training with helping my hands.