Training Guidance

[Starkmann]

My problem:

I can bend 1/4" steel down to about 7 1/2" inches using the double underhand style (elbows down, knuckles face away). When I try to bend double overhand (I think this is becomeing known as folding style, nail pokes into thumbpad, knuckles down, bend over forefingers) I don't seem to be able to bend any length of 1/4".

To compare to other exercises that relate to bending, I can lever a 10lb sledge from 25+" to my nose. I can back lever(dealift) the same sledge from about the same distance. Front levering I can only go from about 10" and side lever (rotation) is about the same.

I realize that all the biggest benders seem to favor the DO technique and I see the merit in this. When I do it with no load I feel that it does load a lot of potential strength up. When I actually try it, all the energy seems to be gone. When I go DU I don't feel the same loading feeling but feel like I can apply my own natural strength to the problem.

The flip side is that I feel the DU in my shoulders and wrist a lot. If I try to bend quite a few pieces in a week I end up with sore shoulders, elbows and wrists. I think the strain is worse but it could just be that I am applying a whole lot more force this way, and that I'm a pretty new bender.

I'm in this for the long haul, I have no problem with changing techniques if it means results in a year and less pain. At this point in time I do want to bend a RED eventually and more importantly, I really want to be a bastard some day (some people will tell you I'm already a bit of one, don't listen to them ).

The question:

So should I favor one of these techniques and in doing so should I abandon the other?

If so, should I favor my stronger technique (DU) or should I go with the more popular and the one that I believe I see more potential in(DO)?

Your help is appreciated.

[Dave Lemanczyk]

Since you requested general help; Challenge yourself and achieve through the most difficult methods possible while always maintaining your integrity and safety.

For me that personally happens to be; hands together, over the top (Reverse Style). I know I could "fold" tougher spikes & bolts than I am currently bending with my hands together but I would never even consider it due to the fact that I know it is easier. I always took and will always take the longer road.

Good luck man.

[joeyg]

Bend however you get the most leverage and what is more comfortable.

If you like double underhand, stick with it, if you feel better goind double over hand, go with that.

Bending is about bending a piece of steel....when I look at two pieces of steel that are bent, i can't tell what style they were bent with.

[Dude]

Go with what feels best to you, if DO is more advantageous for progression then do so. The best thing to do is practice all 3 styles like many people do. You won't be cheating yourself of strength gains using DO technique.

As Dave said "Challenge yourself and achieve through the most difficult methods possible while always maintaining your integrity and safety". If you deadlift with your feet close together on an unknurled bar DO, file the knurling off your grippers and TNS every rep, bench with your hands touching the collars, and other likes then DO may not be for you since it creates a false illusion that you're becoming stronger when your really just cheating yourself with shortcut technique. My advice is bend DO since it is generally easier to most people. Eventually you'll run into the piece of steel that is difficult for you at any level whether your hands are interlocked in the CPR chest thrust position on the bar or out at the ends "folding" it. Get strong and kill some steel in the process

[joeyg]

I don't understand why DO would be cheating yourself....I mean, you can't bend EVERYTHING, you'll eventually hit something that is tough for you, then you will have to develop the strength to bend it.

Whether you a g5 is tough for you reverse style or a red is tough for you DO, you have hit something that you need to develop more strength for.

I've always found it confusing when someone mentions that they shouldn't try something, like super squats for example, unless they are already lifting heavy. Any given weight can be heavy depending on the person, just like any given piece of steel can be touch depending on the person.

[CMunger]

Bending a bar with one end stuck in my ear is the most difficult method I have discovered, and therefore the best.

Use whichever method you are best at. The goal of this little party trick we enjoy called bending is to bend the largest bar possible. We do not want to see people bend paperclips with their eyelids, no matter how difficult it might be, so go large, and become a Bastard.

[gamidon]

My problem:

I can bend 1/4" steel down to about 7 1/2" inches using the double underhand style (elbows down, knuckles face away). When I try to bend double overhand (I think this is becomeing known as folding style, nail pokes into thumbpad, knuckles down, bend over forefingers) I don't seem to be able to bend any length of 1/4".

To compare to other exercises that relate to bending, I can lever a 10lb sledge from 25+" to my nose. I can back lever(dealift) the same sledge from about the same distance. Front levering I can only go from about 10" and side lever (rotation) is about the same.

I realize that all the biggest benders seem to favor the DO technique and I see the merit in this. When I do it with no load I feel that it does load a lot of potential strength up. When I actually try it, all the energy seems to be gone. When I go DU I don't feel the same loading feeling but feel like I can apply my own natural strength to the problem.

The flip side is that I feel the DU in my shoulders and wrist a lot. If I try to bend quite a few pieces in a week I end up with sore shoulders, elbows and wrists. I think the strain is worse but it could just be that I am applying a whole lot more force this way, and that I'm a pretty new bender.

I'm in this for the long haul, I have no problem with changing techniques if it means results in a year and less pain. At this point in time I do want to bend a RED eventually and more importantly, I really want to be a bastard some day (some people will tell you I'm already a bit of one, don't listen to them ).

The question:

So should I favor one of these techniques and in doing so should I abandon the other?

If so, should I favor my stronger technique (DU) or should I go with the more popular and the one that I believe I see more potential in(DO)?

Your help is appreciated.

I would work with your strongest technique. If you are feeling pain in your shoulders you need to evaluate if it is soreness or injury. If it is soreness this is OK. Get enough rest between workouts. For now with your wrists getting sore rest 7-10 days between. Ignore any threads where people talk about different techniques being better than another. If your goals are to bend steel bend it. You get stronger no matter what technique you use, but it is true that each technique hits your body in a different way.

Your levering is hitting your wrists as well so be carefull that you are getting enough rest on your wrists. If you bend every 7 days you cant be levering too often inbetween or your wrists will not get the rest they need. Try different intervals and try some light levering as active recovery as well.

Greg

Edited February 5, 2006 by gamidon

[joeyg]

final thought....

I hope whomever writes off DO benders as cheaters realizes that we are talking about the start of the bend. All bends much end with a chest crush. How you start a bend means absolutely nothing. The wrists are removed from the equation at 90 degrees....start the bend how you want, just remember, the only ones calling you a cheater or saying you are taking the short road are just jealous cause they can't bend big steel.

[stew2]

Mike you've gotten some good info here and some other stuff.you can pick through and decide which is which. I'm not an expert bender by far but enjoy it at times.Do what your comfortable with practice a couple different ways to gain the strength in different areas and go back to the way you like it.Do some reaserch and educate yourself on the difference between bending, folding,crushing or what ever you want to call what you do just make sure if you claim it it is what you say because anything else will cause a backlash as you can already tell. And most important try to have fun now go get some steel practice,and strive to improve thats the best advice I can give hope it helps some how.

[climber511]

I won't even address the styles issues except to say that each body has different length levers and leverages - what works well for one may not work for you so let your body be your guide - especially in veiw of any pain caused by any style. Flexibility issues and old shoulder, elbow etc injuries also need to be included in your decision. Work with all the different styles with light stock long enough to see what works and doesn't work for you. Small changes in body position can make or break both your strength and your joints so learn how to bend before trying to bend big. Start slow and work form until you can exert yourself safely. Bending can be dangerous under extreme conditions - learn yourself well enough that it's not dangerous under your conditions.

[Scott Styles]

Doing the DO style with the most force possible is highly dependent on learning the movement. If someone at your strongman sessions knows it, a little coaching from them could be all you need to fold the quarter inch stock. I'm sure you have the strength needed. You may also find a six inch piece easier to start with, due to the reduced flexibility needs.

[rjkd12]

There is a large continuum of styles. At one end, you have what Cmunger said. Bending with one end in your ear, or if you wanna be more serious, bending with one end in your mouth (big steve does that). At the other end would be special wrist wraps that you need to have help to get your hands into position because of the pressure stored in the wraps. Choose where you want to bend on that continuum.

I would say still bend both DU and DO. It seems like DO needs a bit more technique and someone to teach you how might be best. Once you can do both ok, decide what you want to do. Do you want to bend big steel? Then go DO since I assume you can do the most DO. Since you say you want to be a bastard, I say go with this style.

Want only wrist strength? Bend DU or DO with knuckles together. Actually, if you want wrist strength I think there is better things out there than bending. Do more levering.

I don't see why you would bend for any other reason but bending.In my opinion, its silly to make it more difficult for yourself for no reason. But, if that is your goal, feel free to stick one end in your ear.

[bencrush]

Starkman, I've been in the same predicament as you for a while.

I was only able to bend using the DU style for quite a while. I kept trying and then quickly abandoning the DO style each and every time I attempted it again and most of the time failed to bend even a very easy timber tie.

So with some form critique over the internet (through video) and by one on one form critique, I am now able to at least bend some 60D Nails now. I recently bent a 60D Nail that was cut down to 4.5". This is nothing to brag about really, just letting you know the difference a month or so can make with better technique.

I still favor the DU style though. I am still stronger with it and have constantly sore hands from the DO style. And still can't seem to nail my form down on the DO even with constant practice and attention to my form.

I have had to ask myself the same questions you're asking yourself.

Which style should I use? Which style do I think will allow me to eventually bend the hardest steel?

The DO style, I think, will eventually allow me to bend the hardest steel.

As for which style should I use, that will be dependent on more than just bending the biggest steel.

Like which style leaves me in less pain throughout the day. That would be the DU style.

Which style for some reason seems to be sapping my crushing grip at record pace? That would be the DO style.

So for me, the choice is now a bit more clear than it was. I will bend DU for the majority of my bending workouts. I may bend DO every once in a while to keep a bit of my newfound technique intact.

But as someone else said, even a DU bend is a combination of DU and DO at the crushdown. So hopefully all the DO bending I've been doing will transfer over to a better crushdown. Or at least an ability to switch to a crushdown sooner than what I used to have to do.

[Starkmann]

Thanks for everything so far, I appreciate it.

To address a couple posts:

I am in fact driving for the bastard title. I have no intent of ending there but for now that is the furtherest goal I have set. More importantly I want to bend and do lots of other cool stuff when I am Climbers age and older.

Based on Gamidon's post, I'm thinking I'm bending too often and reduction in volume will help the shoulders, elbows, wrist, sissiness. Being fairly new to bending I did what we tell noobs not to do and then do ourselves, I did too much too often.

I'm trying to gather all the info I can, I have reread the FAQ and the article on Diesel more times than I care to admit to, it still took at least five or six readings for me to understand the correct way to do the folding technique. I've been trying to watch all the videos I can search for. The greatest effect there is to be blown away by what some of you can bend. It is awesome.

At this time I don't think my training partners can out bend me. We haven't done a real direct comparison but I think I have them beat. They are really good with the showman style bending a 3' bar over the nose type stuff. I don't think either of them have done much nail bending at all. The flip side is that we have a lot of strong people in this area of the country. I will have to seek knowledge where I can over this next year.

I did a little more experimentation last night and found that on a short piece (4"-5") of 3/16 the fold seems a lot easier than the DU. Which ephasizes to me what many of you have said, don't abandon any style. They all have their place, even some of the odd ball styles (teeth not ear).

Thanks again for everything so far.

Edited February 6, 2006 by Starkmann

[Left Side]

Bending a bar with one end stuck in my ear is the most difficult method I have discovered, and therefore the best.

When I read this I laughed so hard I almost choked.

But on to the real question, Stark, find what works, and run with it as long as it lasts. DU is working for you right now, it sounds like you enjoy it, then take it as far as you can. Even if you hit a wall and need to switch later, you will still retain the crushdown strength what you earned in DU bending.

If it was me personally, in your position and with your goals, I would switch to double overhand.

[Dave Lemanczyk]

Bend however you get the most leverage and what is more comfortable.

If you like double underhand, stick with it, if you feel better goind double over hand, go with that.

Bending is about bending a piece of steel....when I look at two pieces of steel that are bent, i can't tell what style they were bent with.

Have you ever wondered why there are so few reverse or double underhand steel benders in the world?

In comparison why are there are such plentiful amounts of individuals using the double overhand folding style?

Why is that?

I understand that everyone has their own methods but at the same time, are you getting the most out of your mental and physical body through the methods any of you are currently imploring?

For those that have any doubts on my abilities or current level of steel bending I will say this; I have witnesses that can attest to the fact that with my hands completely together and only using two seven inch thin leather wraps (to protect my hands from wound) that I can melt a Grade 5 Bolt down past two inches in less than :05. This example is only to give an illustration of what I am currently performing.

Could I always perform this? No.

Did it take time and patience? Yes.

How many people do you think can put their hands completely together (negating leverage) and melt down Grade 5's like that? Seriously, how many?

Very interested to hear your response Joe.

[joeyg]

Bend however you get the most leverage and what is more comfortable.

If you like double underhand, stick with it, if you feel better goind double over hand, go with that.

Bending is about bending a piece of steel....when I look at two pieces of steel that are bent, i can't tell what style they were bent with.

Have you ever wondered why there are so few reverse or double underhand steel benders in the world?

In comparison why are there are such plentiful amounts of individuals using the double overhand folding style?

Why is that?

I understand that everyone has their own methods but at the same time, are you getting the most out of your mental and physical body through the methods any of you are currently imploring?

For those that have any doubts on my abilities or current level of steel bending I will say this; I have witnesses that can attest to the fact that with my hands completely together and only using two seven inch thin leather wraps (to protect my hands from wound) that I can melt a Grade 5 Bolt down past two inches in less than :05. This example is only to give an illustration of what I am currently performing.

Could I always perform this? No.

Did it take time and patience? Yes.

How many people do you think can put their hands completely together (negating leverage) and melt down Grade 5's like that? Seriously, how many?

Very interested to hear your response Joe.

Dave,

It does not matter to me how you complete your bend, or how anyone completes their bend for that matter. Nor does it matter to me how many people do it with hands touching or on the ends of the bars.

Of course I am getting the most out my methods mentally and physically. I find my challenge in big pieces of steel, not making bending smaller stuff more difficult. I can easily make all lifts more difficult. For example, i could only Deadlift with a narrow stance and double over grip with no chalk or straps; I could squat narrow; i could tns all my grippers and not use chalk; i could lift my block weights with sweaty hands and no chalk; etc, etc. I hope you implore all of the methods I just mentioned. I can't imagine taking the easy road on the lifts i just mentioned while making bending difficult.

Bending is about bending, it's not about how close your hands are. If you want to turn bending into a wrist exercise, by all means, do what you think is best. Just don't put people down and call them clowns because they don't follow your thinking.

Edited February 7, 2006 by joeyg

[Mikael Siversson]

final thought....

I hope whomever writes off DO benders as cheaters realizes that we are talking about the start of the bend. All bends much end with a chest crush. How you start a bend means absolutely nothing. The wrists are removed from the equation at 90 degrees....start the bend how you want, just remember, the only ones calling you a cheater or saying you are taking the short road are just jealous cause they can't bend big steel.

There is more to it. The reverse style, for example, will add strength to rope pulling or vbar lifting.

In three weeks time you will see exactly how effective it is.

DU appears to add strength to closing grippers.

I believe these two techniques are better than DO for adding to your total in an allround grip competition.

If you don't compete, then it obviously does not matter. I enjoy watching clips of people bending steel regardless of style.

Edited February 7, 2006 by Mikael Siversson

[Dan Cenidoza]

I don't much get into the specifics between bending styles, though I do realize there are "techniques" (i.e. folding) that make the bend easier. What I don't fully understand is why people say DU is "better for wrist strength", obviously that's the case if you're folding but in my experience, the DO style seems more difficult. Perhaps I just feel more comfortable in the DU position...

At this time I don't think my training partners can out bend me. We haven't done a real direct comparison but I think I have them beat. They are really good with the showman style bending a 3' bar over the nose type stuff. I don't think either of them have done much nail bending at all.

I've done my fair share of short-bending. It isn't something I practice often, but I can hold my own. Bring some steel down this weekend, we'll take a look at the different techniques, and we'll have a little 'direct comparison'.

[Dave Lemanczyk]

Dave,

It does not matter to me how you complete your bend, or how anyone completes their bend for that matter. Nor does it matter to me how many people do it with hands touching or on the ends of the bars.

Of course I am getting the most out my methods mentally and physically. I find my challenge in big pieces of steel, not making bending smaller stuff more difficult. I can easily make all lifts more difficult. For example, i could only Deadlift with a narrow stance and double over grip with no chalk or straps; I could squat narrow; i could tns all my grippers and not use chalk; i could lift my block weights with sweaty hands and no chalk; etc, etc. I hope you implore all of the methods I just mentioned. I can't imagine taking the easy road on the lifts i just mentioned while making bending difficult.

Bending is about bending, it's not about how close your hands are. If you want to turn bending into a wrist exercise, by all means, do what you think is best. Just don't put people down and call them clowns because they don't follow your thinking.

I respect your opinion Joe as everyone has one.

I also did not call anyone a "clown" in this thread Joe. I did not put anyone down either. Why do you bring something like that up Joe? Seriously...All you are doing is stirring the cauldron. This is something that this boards owner (Bill Piche) has outwardly stated that he does not want. Several members have also outwardly stated that this is something that is not wanted. Why do you then stir this pot? Anyone with common sense can see this simply by reading to your responses to what I write.

I gave suggestions in my previous posting and added a different perspective than one that is commonly shared amongst the members of this board. Again, I respect what everyone does but there are methods out there that are safer and more efficient for physical progress. If bending a bar to bend a bar is all you care about then by all means, do what you want. For the rest of the people out there who really want to learn how to improve their lower arms for everything possible, I am here.

On this thread Joe, I gave suggestions from a different perspective to enable longevity and natural progress. YOU are stirring the pot and instead of learning and maybe contributing. YOU are adding a negative perspective which will in turn cloud the mind of others.

I will get through to a great many people and I also will never have a chance to get through to the rest. Bending steel to me is a feat of strength only implored after years of building the connective tissues in the lower arms. When I speak about technique and the dificulty of using the hands together it is to properly illustrate that when you CAN achieve the bend in that specific fashion, your body is naturally ready to handle the imposed demands. Injuries are something of a rarity when you implement this method because your body is naturally ready for the imposed demands.

Can steel be bent using other methods? Yes.

Will men and women become physically and mentally injured as a result of to much too fast by implementing methods that are easier for them? Yes.

Why? Connective tissues take time and patience to build. Muscles do not grow in quality in comparison to connective tissues. Again, time and patience.

It suprises me that you (Joe) would react this way and write such things as a response to my inquiry. It also makes sense to me because I understand how the mind works and what causes certain decisions to be made. I only hope that some time in the near future that you (Joe and any others that vehimently argue with what I have to write) may consider what I have to offer as it represents a safe way to your own natural progress.

There is a reason why there is such a limited amount of men who can complete several feats of strength. There is also a reason why some people can bend spikes but little or anything else. You want to think about that and why. It might help you to understand where I am coming from.

Again, I post this because the truth needs to be understood. As a sports science professional and a man with experience, I feel I am qualified to help anyone who really wants to make physical and mental progress implementing their entire body (obviously including their lower arms). Grip training is not a secret rather common sense and applied information learned through intensified studies coupled with proper experience.

For those that want to bend to bend, please clarify that as it represents something I simply can not comprehend yet I respect because it is an individual decision.

[joeyg]

Dave,

I appreciate your response and your willingness to help others.

I am not trying to stir any pot.

I have yet to be injured bending using my style. I am unsure if anyone has been injured using the DO method, but perhaps injuries were sustained on steel that just cannot be bent unbraced.

However, there are many ways to bend steel and strengthen connective tissue and wrist and forearms. I, as I hope others do, train wrist strength specifically in the form of levering. I bend steel because it is fun. I am not bending to gain strength in muscles that are used for bending.

If however, bending was going to be a main source of strength development, then your methods should be used. If you train your lower arms with other exercises, then go bend in any style you wish.

[rjkd12]

Haha, this is crazy. If your goal is to bend big steel, bend in a fashion that lets you bend the biggest steel. Otherwise, when someone, who is even possibly weaker than you, outbends you all you have is excuses. I hate it when someone looses and start spewing shit about leverage, wrapping, "special vitamins", equipment, how they can't workout because they are so busy etc... Its all crap and excuses. If you choose to bend with a retarded style then thats fine, just don't complain when you loose competitions.

But, if your goal is to be the best DU bender, to bend reverse to build up special wrist strength, then do that! Why complain about what you are bending when your only goal is to get stronger?

Wanna bend in some weird esoteric way? Stick an end in your ear. Dave brought up that how many people can bend a such and such bar with a such and such method. hell, if you wanna be the best at some harder method, train your ass of at it and challenge others to do it your way. Don't go up to them and say "hey who can bend the biggest steel?" and complain when they don't stick and end in their ear.

Its funny that people wanna make stuff harder. Do you powerlift hungover? Close grippers with grease on them? Deadlift with an unknurled bar and no chalk? Benchpress with your index fingers touching? Squat wearing high heels? Not wear a cup while you grapple? If not, why only make bending more difficult?

It all comes down to what your goal is.

[Anuwbius]

I say bend with both styles to the original question. Since DU seems to fit you, keep going with it, even though you will probibly bend bigger steel with DO.

On a side note, can I ask how one will be mentally injured using a certain techniqu (DO in this case)

[Dude]

For those that have any doubts on my abilities or current level of steel bending I will say this; I have witnesses that can attest to the fact that with my hands completely together and only using two seven inch thin leather wraps (to protect my hands from wound) that I can melt a Grade 5 Bolt down past two inches in less than :05. This example is only to give an illustration of what I am currently performing.

Could I always perform this? No.

Did it take time and patience? Yes.

According to the pic you bend reverse style. Unless your extremely flexible having your hands touching side DO is difficult, not to do but to get into position. There is a big difference with DO and reverse hands together, not in difficulty but in flexibilty. Just wanted to note that so people trying DO for the 1st time aren't trying to bend in positions where they can get hurt.

Grade 5, reverse style, hands touching, sub :5, decent kink? I'd say a vast majority of people here can do that imo.

[gamidon]

GOALS!!!! I think this is lost on many people. Dave your goal appears to be to increase your wrist strength. This is a noble thing and I wish you the best. If someones goal was to gain wrist strength and asked you how I think it would be a mistake to reccomend bending, regardless of style. Sledge levering and the formulator or barbell curls are much more effective ways to do that. (Heck all this talk about how expensive a formulator is, I bent 120 dollars worth of nails in 3 hours... The formulator sounds like a deal to me )

Most people bend to deform steel. The goal being to deform the biggest piece of steel possible. The fact they gain strength while doing it is a byproduct of the act. As for hands touching my best bends have my hands completely together as the shorter bars will eventually put you knuckle to knuckle no matter what style you use.

I personally do not like the reverse style as it hits your wrists differently, if you train this style you should switch which hand is posting to gain strength evenly in both hands. I much prefer the DU style to the reverse.

Since when did increasing leverage become a bad thing? People on grippers put their hands as low as possible to increase leverage. Does this minimize the strength gains they can hope to achieve? NO the reason is they grab bigger grippers. The point is you can get stronger by progressively increasing the difficulty of what you do in several ways. On grippers you can grab a bigger one, or move your hands further up on the gripper. VERY few do that...