Best Way To Train With A Secret Weapon?

[dragonman]

Thanks in advance

Monte

[Volko Krull]

Load it up heavy, heavy enough so the torque calculated by weight times ratio

of the lever to the end of the handle is higher than the RGC rating the gripper

has you aspire to close, then shut with both hands, fight closed with one.

That's basically the secret as I get it.

If you want it straight from the master, get the Kinney DVD, it is worth it.

[Mun]

Load it up heavy, heavy enough so the torque calculated by weight times ratio

of the lever to the end of the handle is higher than the RGC rating the gripper

has you aspire to close, then shut with both hands, fight closed with one.

That's basically the secret as I get it.

If you want it straight from the master, get the Kinney DVD, it is worth it.

What do you mean Volko, could you clarify that a bit in Lamens terms please. I also just got my SW, works great.

[Wade Gillingham]

If you are strong at the close and weak in the sweep I would load it heavy enough to rip your hand open after 1-2 seconds. If you are weak at the close and strong in the sweep I would do more progressive weight holds starting with a weight you can hold 10" and moving up 5-10 pounds a set until you can't hold closed but can hold about an inch from close.

[Volko Krull]

Mun,

sure, what I mean is: Your gripper's handle has a certain length, which creates a lever.

Therefore it's easier to close it by pressing on the end then by pressing, for instance, on the center ring.

Now the Secret Weapon as Kinney built it had a loadable arm which was 2.5 times as long as a gripper handle.

That means, say your #4 takes a calibrated 98kg to close, at the very end, that you'd have to put only like

39 or so kg on the loadable arm to simulate, by leverage, the closing force your #4 has, at the end of its handle.

That is because the weight on the end of the load arm gets multiplied by 2.5 along the way up to the regular

handle length. If the arm was 5 times as long you'd only need 19.5kg and so on.

best regards

Volko

Edited April 16, 2010 by Volko Krull

[Mun]

Mun,

sure, what I mean is: Your gripper's handle has a certain length, which creates a lever.

Therefore it's easier to close it by pressing on the end then by pressing, for instance, on the center ring.

Now the Secret Weapon as Kinney built it had a loadable arm which was 2.5 times as long as a gripper handle.

That means, say your #4 takes a calibrated 98kg to close, at the very end, that you'd have to put only like

39 or so kg on the loadable arm to simulate, by leverage, the closing force your #4 has, at the end of its handle.

That is because the weight on the end of the load arm gets multiplied by 2.5 along the way up to the regular

handle length. If the arm was 5 times as long you'd only need 19.5kg and so on.

best regards

Volko

Thanks for clearing that up Volko!

[Cannon]

I train with it slightly different. I view it as a surgical device to specifically train BTR power. As opposed to the other machines which I feel are more comfortable to train brute strength that translates well to the sweep.

One mistake I feel people make--which adds to the PAIN you usually hear is associated with the SW--is that they lift the weight entirely, then close their hand tightly, then let go. As the weight drops, it mutilates your fingers as the moving arm drags itself over muscles, bones, joints, etc. If you picture what is happening, if the moving arm didn't "reposition" itself by ripping through your hand, the alternative would be dislocated fingers.

What I do is put my hand on the machine when it's open and close my fingers with the moving arm. So my fingers are positioned on the SW as if it was closed from being open--same as a gripper. But then the weight hits your hand in the closed position which is impossible to duplicate with a gripper.

You want to choose a weight light enough that you can resist it, at least briefly, in the closed position. In my opinion, the SW stationary handle should be filed through almost completely. Maybe only about 1/8" of the tip of the handle left. I also feel the range of motion should be limited to 1-1/2" or less. Fight the negative from shut all the way down. Pick a weight were the first negative lasts in the 20-30 second range. That will be your best rep. If you're truly giving the negatives everything you have, the time should degrade pretty quickly. It's a test of mental fortitude to be sure. My last workout lasted 4 reps before the weight was dropping straight down like a rock and I knew I was done. I will probably always stay in the 3-8 rep range and the goal is to add weight.

Again, the key points of the SW for me are 1) BTR focus, 2) Short range of motion, 3) Quality of the negative.

Depending on the length of the moving arm, it doesn't take much weight to get the job done.

[Guest Bullitt]

Forgive my stupidity, but how is this any different than Doing negs with a heavier gripper? It is easier to get closed I guess because of the longer arm, but wouldn't the BBs Wade sells with the extended handle do the same? And honestly, if the gripper is too hard for you to cheat close it, you need to use one that is not so hard. Or is it the ability to micro-load that makes it more effective? I'm not sure how much more you get from doing negatives on a machine than on a heavier gripper. Seems this would be appropriate for someone trying to close an elite level gripper like the #4, because there aren't many grippers above it to choose from. But negatives on my super hard 3.5 and then #4 worked very well to smoke most 3.5s. I guess I'm one of the guys that just doesn't get it. I've always believed if you want to get better at grippers, you need to work with grippers. That and 60 rep squats every morning before breakfast.

note: Not knocking the product. Wade's stuff (not to mention the excellent service) is always top notch. It's obviously been very effective for people. I'm just trying to understand why you would buy this vs. the next tougher gripper for negatives.

[Wade Gillingham]

The biggest difference is a constant load at any position vs. the gripper getting easier as it opens, and the ability to adjust the load. The machine is tricky however and I think you need to find what works for your weakness. I can hold a lot more weight than I use for a long time but I choose to go lighter because I am trying to work the close only and not the sweep. For example, I can do negatives with my extended handle world class. I can't even slow it down from popping my hand open to around parallel handles or a little more but at the point I can hold a long time - but what's the point? I really need to work that range that the gripper just blew through and holding in the middle isn't working my weakness. The nice thing about the SW is I can start at a weight that I can hold shut for 10" or so then add weight slowly for the next sets until I get to that same point that I am at with my WC, getting popped open outside of my weakness area and into my strength area, then holding without problems. Not everyone is like me however - most guys that are better than me with grippers probably can't hold as much as me in that position where I am strong but would do a better job holding or slowing it down from the starting position. I'm sure Kinney was that way and that is why he advocated using a weight that pulled you right open. For me to use a weight that pulled me right open I would be getting 0 value from the machine IMO. Hope this helps.

Wade

Forgive my stupidity, but how is this any different than Doing negs with a heavier gripper? It is easier to get closed I guess because of the longer arm, but wouldn't the BBs Wade sells with the extended handle do the same? And honestly, if the gripper is too hard for you to cheat close it, you need to use one that is not so hard. Or is it the ability to micro-load that makes it more effective? I'm not sure how much more you get from doing negatives on a machine than on a heavier gripper. Seems this would be appropriate for someone trying to close an elite level gripper like the #4, because there aren't many grippers above it to choose from. But negatives on my super hard 3.5 and then #4 worked very well to smoke most 3.5s. I guess I'm one of the guys that just doesn't get it. I've always believed if you want to get better at grippers, you need to work with grippers. That and 60 rep squats every morning before breakfast.

note: Not knocking the product. Wade's stuff (not to mention the excellent service) is always top notch. It's obviously been very effective for people. I'm just trying to understand why you would buy this vs. the next tougher gripper for negatives.

[Volko Krull]

Wade and Matt, both great posts, thanks a lot! I just got a new insight on the topic

from that. Do you think a Secret Weapon is appropriate if you're chasing the No3? Or should

that heavy duty tool rather stay reserved for things like the 3.5 and beyond?

best regards

Volko

[tselegala]

Wade and Matt, both great posts, thanks a lot! I just got a new insight on the topic

from that. Do you think a Secret Weapon is appropriate if you're chasing the No3? Or should

that heavy duty tool rather stay reserved for things like the 3.5 and beyond?

best regards

Volko

You can say that again. And this is a good thread. I never gave much thought to these details before now.

I have a SW but i never really used it much but that's about to change. I guess you can gauge you're strength better with the SW since you can mirror the loads to RGC ratings almost to the pound.

[Cannon]

Wade and Matt, both great posts, thanks a lot! I just got a new insight on the topic

from that. Do you think a Secret Weapon is appropriate if you're chasing the No3? Or should

that heavy duty tool rather stay reserved for things like the 3.5 and beyond?

best regards

Volko

It's good if you're chasing the #1! That's the beauty of a plate-loaded machine--you can adjust for what you need.

I would throw some numbers around, but keep in mind it's totally dependent on the length of the movable arm on your SW. As an example, mine has a shorter arm and I work out with about 50-60lbs lately. I am around #3 level right now. My buddy Luke (a #3.5 closer) uses 25lbs, but the arm on his SW is a mile long. You just need to fiddle around and see what works for you.

Another aside, if I remember correctly, Kinney definitely demonstrates that he lifts the weight completely then grabs on. I believe he also talks about a pretty tight range of motion--like 1". The ripping through your hand is more tolerable with the tighter range of motion. But I still think you're missing out on better duplicating the mechanics of a gripper and how your hand would be sitting on the handles at the close.

[Volko Krull]

That's exactly what I think, too. When I do negatives with my No3,

I always set it very shallow only, squeeze as far as I can, THEN take my other

hand and push it fully closed. That way I can have my fingers set up right in the

closed position and thus simulate the correct mechanics and leverage.

[Wade Gillingham]

Wade and Matt, both great posts, thanks a lot! I just got a new insight on the topic

from that. Do you think a Secret Weapon is appropriate if you're chasing the No3? Or should

that heavy duty tool rather stay reserved for things like the 3.5 and beyond?

best regards

Volko

I think it's good to add when you get to the point that just working with grippers isn't getting it done anymore and you've plateaued.

Wade

[tselegala]

I thought i would share something I noticed while training with the SW today. I was holding the handles almost completely shut with a weight that made me wonder why i was not totally mastering my 3.5 yet. I looked closely at how i was holding the SW handles and then realized i was doing it wrong. The lever handle was resting mostly on the finger sections closest to the palm (the longer ones) but when i close a gripper, the handle rests more on the middle sections of the fingers. it may seem like an insignificant detail but It made a big difference for both the feel and the amount of weight i could handle. Like cannon said, it's important to replicate the mechanics of closing a gripper if you want the most out of your training with this tool.

Edited April 24, 2010 by alexis

[Cannon]

...also, don't lock it shut by hooking with your thumb. You won't be able to do that in a regular gripper close either. Just remove your thumb from the equation completely.

[Magnus]

Forgive my stupidity, but how is this any different than Doing negs with a heavier gripper? It is easier to get closed I guess because of the longer arm, but wouldn't the BBs Wade sells with the extended handle do the same? And honestly, if the gripper is too hard for you to cheat close it, you need to use one that is not so hard. Or is it the ability to micro-load that makes it more effective? I'm not sure how much more you get from doing negatives on a machine than on a heavier gripper. Seems this would be appropriate for someone trying to close an elite level gripper like the #4, because there aren't many grippers above it to choose from. But negatives on my super hard 3.5 and then #4 worked very well to smoke most 3.5s. I guess I'm one of the guys that just doesn't get it. I've always believed if you want to get better at grippers, you need to work with grippers. That and 60 rep squats every morning before breakfast.

note: Not knocking the product. Wade's stuff (not to mention the excellent service) is always top notch. It's obviously been very effective for people. I'm just trying to understand why you would buy this vs. the next tougher gripper for negatives.

I used to think the same thing until I started using the SW. The difference is significant, though.

Btw, I usually train the SW two ways. 1, use a heavy weight and do timed holds (handle completely closed), and 2, use a weight slightly heavier than you can actually keep closed, use both hands to close it, then let go with your non-gripping hand and let the weight slowly pry your gripping hand open about a 1/2". Force it back up, and repeat for however many reps you want. I never open the SW past parallel.

[Sybersnott]

I train with it slightly different. I view it as a surgical device to specifically train BTR power. As opposed to the other machines which I feel are more comfortable to train brute strength that translates well to the sweep.

Exactly, I believe this was the way Kinney designed the device to do.

One mistake I feel people make--which adds to the PAIN you usually hear is associated with the SW--is that they lift the weight entirely, then close their hand tightly, then let go. As the weight drops, it mutilates your fingers as the moving arm drags itself over muscles, bones, joints, etc. If you picture what is happening, if the moving arm didn't "reposition" itself by ripping through your hand, the alternative would be dislocated fingers.

Well, this being a "negatives only" type grip machine, the pain is subjective to how much you really can endure. I hate pain and will readily admit that; I can't stand the expression, "No pain, no gain". I believe you CAN make gains and very good ones without having to torture yourself. Just be smart about it, that's my philosophy.

Again: you haffta be VERY careful with the SW when it comes to using significant weight with it as it does become "uncomfortable" after a certain point.

What I do is put my hand on the machine when it's open and close my fingers with the moving arm. So my fingers are positioned on the SW as if it was closed from being open--same as a gripper. But then the weight hits your hand in the closed position which is impossible to duplicate with a gripper.

No, it IS possible with a gripper -- but HOW do you get that gripper to that position? You can't (especially with grippers tougher than a #4), hence a device like the SW.

You want to choose a weight light enough that you can resist it, at least briefly, in the closed position. In my opinion, the SW stationary handle should be filed through almost completely. Maybe only about 1/8" of the tip of the handle left.

Kinney claims that the stationary handle was "pinching", hence the filing of it - I think that if you use enough weight on the SW, that's not really a problem -- it never was for me. Also, keep in mind that the filing was done to replicate a closeup of an actual gripper, something the design of which had to take into account and for which Kinney adjusted it for.

I also feel the range of motion should be limited to 1-1/2" or less.

I would say perhaps less than that!

Fight the negative from shut all the way down.

Duh! Isn't that the point?

Pick a weight were the first negative lasts in the 20-30 second range. That will be your best rep. If you're truly giving the negatives everything you have, the time should degrade pretty quickly. It's a test of mental fortitude to be sure.

If I really fight it, my negatives last a few seconds at most.

My last workout lasted 4 reps before the weight was dropping straight down like a rock and I knew I was done. I will probably always stay in the 3-8 rep range and the goal is to add weight.

Whoa, please be careful! This machine can easily injure you as opposed to a regular run-of-the-mill plate loaded grip machine.

Again, the key points of the SW for me are 1) BTR focus, 2) Short range of motion, 3) Quality of the negative.

Good way to sum it up.

Depending on the length of the moving arm, it doesn't take much weight to get the job done.

You're right, not a lot.

[stevey7]

the sw is agony for me i load it up heavy enough so it pulls my hand open straight away

[Volko Krull]

At this point, no matter how true his claims might be, which I do NOT want to discuss here at all,

wasn't Kinney somewhat of a pioneer mechanical genius? I mean, seriously, he invented grinding, BTR,

filing, the secret weapon, the severe negative principle? Back in 1996 and 97 in rural Tennessee when

grip was such a small thing it wasn't even recognized within the STRENGTH world not even mentioning

the rest of mankind.