Horseshoe Progression

[Tim71]

Okay, since we've never brainstormed on this stuff in one thread devoted to it I'll start it off. We'd all like to have a progression of the popular shoes. I'll start by listing what I think the general progression is. Now of course, as the sizes change, the difficulty may overlap just like as you shorted a bastard, it reaches a point where it's harder than a hexabastard. I won't try to disect that too much.

Also, each brand keeps the same wide of the steel for a few or several shoe sizes. In other words, like was posted on the St croix site, the 5/8 width was kept for the 000 and 00 sizes and the 3/4 was kept for the 0 thru #3 size in the lite and regular. I think diamond switches at the #2 size but I could be wrong, I'll have to look that up.

So for instance right now let's assume we're using #1 sizes. Here's my experiece with the shoes I've bent.

1. St croix ultra lite - I think we can all agree for this as a starting point. Rimmed shoe.

2. St croix polo show. Also a rimmed shoe with the inner rim being thicker than the outer.

3. Diamond classic - Flat or "regular" shoe. Would have DC1 on it to identify. Easier than the bronco or PL series.

4. St Croix lite rim - Is rimmed like the ultra lite and polo but both rims are thicker.

Up from here you'd have the diamond bronco which are about 5/16 thick. The St croix lites in the flat style are actually pretty thick at 5/16. These are probably similiar to a diamond bronco. The St croix regular shoes are 3/8 thick and would be one heck of a bend. I've also bent an anvil but I'm limiting this list to the regularly available shoes.

The next progression from the lite rim may be the "special" diamond shoe also. After the lite rim, I'm just guessing based on looks but maybe Chris can give some input although to be honest I have no idea what his toughest shoe is.

Come on guys, chime in and we'll put our heads and experiences together and piece it all out. The St croix lite rim is my best shoe so beyond that I can't say right now. Maybe after we figure out the types of shoes in order then maybe we can add a little size info too. Right now I think the brand or series is what would help the most.

Tim

[MalachiMcMullen]

As Tim pointed out, because the thickness and width stays the same for most brands through several sizes, the larger sizes like the 2's and 3's+ will typically be easier than the smaller sizes. That's IF the thickness and width stays the same.

Great idea Tim!!! Come on guys, there are some good shoe benders on here and at the very least a few with a great many brands and bends under their belt so join in!!!(Chris that means you too!!! )

[timiacobucci]

Just to clarify what exactly is a rim?

[Tim71]

A rimmed shoe is a shoe that looks like this:

rimmed shoe

The ultra lite and polo are both rimmed shoes. The Diamond classics are "regular" shoes, meaning they're flat.

Tim

[timiacobucci]

You mean it has the groove through the middle of it?

I wonder about horseshoes for the throwing sport, I remeber them being crazy big but I was pretty young when I used to play with my dad and grandfather so most everything looked pretty big back then.

[vikingsrule92]

You mean it has the groove through the middle of it?

I wonder about horseshoes for the throwing sport, I remeber them being crazy big but I was pretty young when I used to play with my dad and grandfather so most everything looked pretty big back then.

Yeah basically it has a groove through the middle of the shoe.

[timiacobucci]

I bought some Diamond horseshoes today and did some measuring and calculatin an figurin but if you want to skip the technical stuff you can scroll to the end for the conclusion I reached.

Here are pictures of the different shoes

1Pl , 0PL , DC1 , DC00 , DS1 here is them stacked together for comparison side , top

Here is how I and where I measured the shoes measure

1PL Thickness 0.34" / 8.6mm Width 0.732" / 18.6mm Length 5.26" / 134mm

0PL Thickness 0.32" / 8.05mm Width 0.7" / 17.6mm Length 4.94" / 125.5mm

DC1 Thickness 0.30" / 7.7mm Width 0.729" / 18.5mm Length 5.28" / 133.6mm

DC00 Thickness 0.28" / 7.3mm Width 0.69" / 17.5mm Length 4.70" / 119.5mm

DS1 Thickness 0.28" / 7.31mm Width 0.78" / 19.8mm Length 5.26" / 133.5mm

That is the raw information for the Different types of Diamond Shoes that I bought and measured.

I got a rough estimate of cross sectional area in the center of the shoe where it bends by multiplying the width x the thickness. This isn't 100 percent accurate because it is not a rectangle but it is closer to that than an oval and they are all a bit different so it is close enough for me.

So this is the Progression based on sheer beef of the shoe disregarding length. The 1PL or Bronco shoe is allot thicker and wider than the others and should be quite a beast.

1PL Cross Sectional Area 0.249 "^2 / 6.32 mm^2

0PL Cross Sectional Area 0.224 "^2 / 5.69 mm^2

DC1 Cross Sectional Area 0.219 "^2 / 5.55 mm^2

DS1 Cross Sectional Area 0.218 "^2 / 5.55 mm^2

DC00 Cross Sectional Area 0.19 "^2 / 4.9 mm^2

I also calculated the ratio of cross sectional area to length by dividing the numbers above by the length. This isn't based on any physics or force calculations based on the actual shape of the shoe, it is just an imaginary # and it doesn't mean anything but that the ones with higher numbers *might* be more difficult than ones lower than it.

1PL 0.0473

0PL 0.0453

DC1 0.0414

DS1 0.0414

DC00 0.0404

I was surprised by this because the 1PL still rates the highest dispite it's length. I was going to say the 0PL would probably be harder because it is nearly as thick as the 1PL but almost as short ad the DC00 but the 1PL is so much thicker it doesn't matter.

So I don't know about the St. Criox shoes or the bigger 2 or 3 sizes for the Diamonds but simply judging from the ones available at the store I was at, the bigger the shoes in a given type and generally the thicker and bigger they look the harder they are probably going to be to bend despite having more leverage.

Also if you look at the pictures the width and shape of the Special or DS1 is wider and rounder than the DC1 sort of like a St. Croix Polo so this should be harder than the roughly equivalent DC1. So based on all of that this my guess for the final order of the Diamond shoes that I have from hardest to easiest.

1PL

0PL

DS1

DC1

DC00

[antarath]

Something tells me you did NOT fail in math!

Great post, very interesting

Mats

[Brad Manion]

Out of curiosity, and because a SCF-Lite#2 laughed in my face after a SCF-Polo yielded so easily, I was wondering what follow in this progression between the SCF-Lites/harder Diamond shoes and the draft horseshoes Pat Povilaitis bent in "336 Pounds of Fury".

[Tim71]

That's what we're trying to determine. For one thing, most professionals are kinda tight-lipped about the brands and exact types of shoes, wrenches etc. Not Pat P necessarily but the whole catagory in general. It's been said that the monster #8 shoe that Pat partially bent is the diamond draft. Could be but I can't confirm it.

If anybody knows what kind he bent and where to get them maybe we can try? I'm not convinced that all draft horseshoes are harder just because they are bigger. Some I'm sure are but not all are 1/2 inch thick.

Anybody know the brand Pat P uses?

Also, does anybody know what kind of shoes you ask for to get the draft shoes with the extended legs that are real raw and squared off? I'm sure that gives you some extra leverage.

Tim

[Brad Manion]

Tim, the draft horseshoes Pat P. bent in those videos are Keershards (spelling, pronunciation???). I know I'm in the right ballpark on the brand. Incidentally, when I made my big purchase of SCF UltraLite, Polo, and Lite shoes, I bought a few of those giant draft horseshoes, size8. Those things are b-e-a-s-t-s.

[DAN PRAYDIS]

you should be able to find some good shoes with these links http://www.powersourcing.com/sf/drafthorseshoes.htm

[antarath]

Yep it's the Diamond draft he bent.

I guess the extra legs give you some leverage, but to hold the darn thing is a pain in the ass.

I tried one just now, and I could rest like 2/3 of the forearm on the leg!

On the smaller shoes you can get a good tight grip on the shoe , but I can't get that "feeling" with the draft ones. Pretty awkward

I actually tried putting the center of it in a vice, but it couldn't even get it to move

Again, for those who wonder how big it is, here's one compared to a Diamond DC1:

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9677/draftshoe1ur2.jpg

Just in case someone haven't seen it. I've posted it before

Edit: try www.centaurforge.com for horseshoes. They've got LOADS

Brad: I've got some Kerckhaert shoes. They got some pretty solid shoes.

Mats

Edited January 8, 2008 by Mats Erik

[stew2]

I've got some some diamonds that are marked #3 and SSP not sure what there for but they are big not quite but about the same thickness as the #6 Pat gave me but not as long they're a killer I tryed one after some others the other nite and only got it spread about 2or 3" I'll give it a go later maybe I can get stronger by then .Anybody know what these are .

[Tim71]

I know I've seen a pic of a #5 kerkhaert draft horseshoe that Dennis bent but it had the longer squared legs and when I look them up on line I can't find any that look like it.

Pat is definately not human when it comes to the shoes.

Anybody know what brand the #4s are that Pat used to bend? Or the one on the Slim video? It look pretty stout.

Tim

[MalachiMcMullen]

You know I think Dave Thornton has a squared off draft shoe of Pat's. Chris gave some away as prizes at Gripmas

[EricMilfeld]

I hit Tractor Supply today to check out their shoe stock. They no longer stock the #2 size Diamonds, but I did find a few new things to try out. In the store I bent, when no one was looking, a Diamond Hind #1 and a Diamond Heel #0, which both felt surprisingly easy. So I came home and discovered my wife was finishing up her art instructional class with a bunch of homeschool kids. I figured I'd show off a little bit for them with one of the hind shoes I had just bought. I got it, but it was as if the shoes mustered up a bunch of strength and courage on the trip home from the store. Wow was it tough! I got it to about 175 degrees and presented it to the kids as "finished". I mention all of this because I discovered for myself today, even though it's been noted here on the board, just how much the equestrian footwear can vary. The shoes came from the very same box, too. I'll try the Diamond Classic #1 shoes I got today when the pain in my thigh subsides and see how it stacks up against my other batch, which I suspect was particularly hard. I guess compiling an accurate list of difficulty requires trying several different batches of the various shoe types to factor in all of the inconsistency.

[antarath]

Great post/story Eric!

The Diamond shoes I have from July, 2006 are alot harder than the ones I got in December 2007. They even look different.

The older ones are almost black, and the new ones are more blueish and has some kind of "golden" spots on them. (or maybe I just need glasses) :Dd

Mats

[stew2]

I've got some #4s he's hearted and a #6 flatened out with the square ends and it's a beast. The 4's are not as wide as the hand forged one Nick got me from FBBC but they are thicker and shorter. I'm not sure what brand they are but I am sure knowing how Pat is if he does them in a show they are definitely a respectable bend because he wouldn't do one for a show unless he felt it was worthy. Which means for me I don't expect to be killing any of those right away.Some guys do stuff on the easy side in shows since they're doing so much volume but the stuff he does in volume is out of reach for alot or max attempts I still would like a DNA test to verify he's from earth . Heck of a strong guy and a stand up personality glad I've had the chance to meet him and see him in action.

[Tim71]

I noticed on my diamond classics that there's another number faintly visible on the other leg. Like a small 19 or sometimes 15. Maybe these are batch numbers?

To have one of Pat's bent shoes is a great honor. I'd love to find some of those shoes to try. Might be able to do nothing whatsover with them but I'd like to try.

No brand or markings on either one?

Tim

[MalachiMcMullen]

I noticed on my diamond classics that there's another number faintly visible on the other leg. Like a small 19 or sometimes 15. Maybe these are batch numbers?

To have one of Pat's bent shoes is a great honor. I'd love to find some of those shoes to try. Might be able to do nothing whatsover with them but I'd like to try.

No brand or markings on either one?

Tim

I noticed that as well Tim. I have diamonds from several different orders and several different stores, the #'s are

2, 6, 44, 11, 87, 27, 7, 88 and 3

[EricMilfeld]

I noticed on my diamond classics that there's another number faintly visible on the other leg. Like a small 19 or sometimes 15. Maybe these are batch numbers?

To have one of Pat's bent shoes is a great honor. I'd love to find some of those shoes to try. Might be able to do nothing whatsover with them but I'd like to try.

No brand or markings on either one?

Tim

I noticed that as well Tim. I have diamonds from several different orders and several different stores, the #'s are

2, 6, 44, 11, 87, 27, 7, 88 and 3

Yes, I noticed an "88" on one of the shoes I bought yesterday. Maybe a factory designation?

[antarath]

I have "27" on both DC1's, and "48" on both DC2

[MalachiMcMullen]

Maybe I'll add in what those shoes were

88- #1 Hind

11- DCOH

6- DC1(it could be a 6 or an 8)

82- OOPL

7- OPL

27- DC1

87- #1 Hind

44- OOHind

61- OOPL

2- OPL

[vikingsrule92]

I have a question for you horseshoe experts, I got a shoe from a friend from youtube. It's a diamond with the outer rim significantly bigger than the inner, about double. It has 2BRS on the leg, is this a rimmed Diamond? How hard is this compared to the St. Croixs?

Edited January 17, 2008 by vikingsrule92