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Rick Walker

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Dargath78

I had this one guy at work bitch at me about protien supplements hurting kidneys.

The problem was he was spending 300 a weekend on crack and drank a six pack every night after work. Go figure.

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DAN PETERSON
Eat whenever I'm hungry, keep sugar, white flour, and cholesterol to a minimum, and have some sort of fresh fruit or vegetable and whole grain with every meal. Lots of lean meat, protein supplement, and vitamins. Anywhere from 2500-4000 calories a day, depending on what I'm doing. This seems to keep me full of energy, keep the gains coming, and keep the body fat from getting out of hand.

I didn't see beer anywhere in there Flash

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SqeezeMasterFlash

I enjoy a snifter of port at Christmas :tongue

Seriously, I've been cutting the beer way down to almost nothing, maybe 1 or 2 good German beers per week. Except for last weekend, stupid friend getting married and stupid beer being free. I'm not made of stone! :cry

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No evidence of this in healthy people woodchuck.

Dont be so sure, Rick.

Kidney stone warning on high-protein diet

How the Atkins Diet Works

High Protein Diets

What You Need to Know About Kidney Stones Note the Risk Factors.

Sure, don't worry about it.

John,

That whole argument is based on theory. That has never been proven. If high protein diets did cause renal failure or kidney stones, there would be quite a few people in the hospital these days don't you think?

Kidney stones are caused by other underlying factors. Mainly macro and micronutrients that people would be getting on a sensible meal structure are not using atkin-like methods, thus increases in cases of kidney stones are not uncommon. High protein alone is not the culprit.

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There is no magical mix of macronutrients for weight-loss(bodyweight, not water weight) it is all caloric intake vs caloric expenditure. The key as you wisely mentioned is making lifestyle changes. These changes whatever they are, should lower your caloric intake or increase your caloric expenditure, or both.

yeah exactly. I hate all these stupid diets, especially atkins, and the people I know that use them. They are just trying to lose fat without effort and that just doesn't happen. Atkins is wealthy (was, until he died) because people are stupid and lazy.

I'm gonna invent the "eat as much of anything you want whenever you want to" diet, and get rich because people will believe me if I tell them it's healthy and it works.

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Tried low carb for awhile and didn't like it, even though it worked.  About three months ago, I virtually stopped eating processed sugar and haven't looked back.  I probably eat less than 10 grams of sugar a day in regular foods and have lost over 25 lbs. and counting.  That with no excercise except my job, and no cutbacks in how much I eat.  I intend to make it a lifelong commitment.

There is no magical mix of macronutrients for weight-loss(bodyweight, not water weight) it is all caloric intake vs caloric expenditure. The key as you wisely mentioned is making lifestyle changes. These changes whatever they are, should lower your caloric intake or increase your caloric expenditure, or both.

When you get on the leaner side, specifics are needed. But in a nutshell, energy balance is needed, and a needed deficit when trying to lose weight. But obviously, there are faster methods using anabolic type methods (not drug interventions).

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Landon,

Will you please go into some detail on these anabolic eating methods and the specifics you speak of for those who are interested in getting lean. Thanks.

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John Wood
That whole argument is based on theory. That has never been proven. If high protein diets did cause renal failure or kidney stones, there would be quite a few people in the hospital these days don't you think?
Perhaps it is based on theory, but based on what is known at the present time, a nutritional imbalance will very likely lead to health problems. An overabundance of calories above and beyond what the body requires is also awfully hard on the system.
Kidney stones are caused by other underlying factors. Mainly macro and micronutrients that people would be getting on a sensible meal structure are not using atkin-like methods, thus increases in cases of kidney stones are not uncommon. High protein alone is not the culprit.

Notice in the last link that protein supplements were not listed as a cause but as a risk factor for kidney stones. No, I'm sure that high protein alone is not the culprit although you are certainly not doing yourself any favors health-wise by overdoing it in that department at the expense of a balanced diet.

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Cutting back on calories or increasing your activity level is surely a good way to loose weight but it's a whole lot more complicated than that. The question should be, what kind of weight do you want to loose? Obviously, fat. To do that optimally, your hormone level plays an important role. You can change hormone levels within your body depending on what you eat. The Atkin and Metabolic diets tries to force your body into using as much body fat as possible as an energy source. It works better for some people than for others. Ofcourse, any sort of extreme diets will not be healthy in the long run.

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foggymountainmuscle

Anyone want to guess how much longer this Atkins craze will go on, in America at least? I'm giving it three more months.

The thing about dieters I hate the most is that most feel they can eat something semi healthy one time a day, or even a week, and that'll help them lose weight. Half ass dieting only adds to your ass.

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Cutting back on calories or increasing your activity level is surely a good way to loose weight but it's a whole lot more complicated than that. The question should be, what kind of weight do you want to loose? Obviously, fat. To do that optimally, your hormone level plays an important role. You can change hormone levels within your body depending on what you eat. The Atkin and Metabolic diets tries to force your body into using as much body fat as possible as an energy source. It works better for some people than for others. Ofcourse, any sort of extreme diets will not be healthy in the long run.

No disrespect intended but I don't understand how it's that complicated. Hormones alone don't make you lose or gain weight by themselves only caloric intake does (real bodyweight not water weight). Hormones may regulate a lot of things when it comes to macronutrients but it still comes down to calories in vs calories out. It doesn't matter how much your insulin levels spike throughout the day if you are at a caloric deficit at the end of the day you are still going to lose weight. Try adding up the calories in some of these diets, you'll be surprised how low they are.

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Cutting back on calories or increasing your activity level is surely a good way to loose weight but it's a whole lot more complicated than that. The question should be, what kind of weight do you want to loose? Obviously, fat. To do that optimally, your hormone level plays an important role. You can change hormone levels within your body depending on what you eat. The Atkin and Metabolic diets tries to force your body into using as much body fat as possible as an energy source. It works better for some people than for others. Ofcourse, any sort of extreme diets will not be healthy in the long run.

No disrespect intended but I don't understand how it's that complicated. Hormones alone don't make you lose or gain weight by themselves only caloric intake does (real bodyweight not water weight). Hormones may regulate a lot of things when it comes to macronutrients but it still comes down to calories in vs calories out. It doesn't matter how much your insulin levels spike throughout the day if you are at a caloric deficit at the end of the day you are still going to lose weight. Try adding up the calories in some of these diets, you'll be surprised how low they are.

Yeah, but like I said, you want to loose bodyfat, not muscle. I have also read some research that suggests that a calorie is not always a calorie, so calorie counting is not so exact as many think.

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Cutting back on calories or increasing your activity level is surely a good way to loose weight but it's a whole lot more complicated than that. The question should be, what kind of weight do you want to loose? Obviously, fat. To do that optimally, your hormone level plays an important role. You can change hormone levels within your body depending on what you eat. The Atkin and Metabolic diets tries to force your body into using as much body fat as possible as an energy source. It works better for some people than for others. Ofcourse, any sort of extreme diets will not be healthy in the long run.

No disrespect intended but I don't understand how it's that complicated. Hormones alone don't make you lose or gain weight by themselves only caloric intake does (real bodyweight not water weight). Hormones may regulate a lot of things when it comes to macronutrients but it still comes down to calories in vs calories out. It doesn't matter how much your insulin levels spike throughout the day if you are at a caloric deficit at the end of the day you are still going to lose weight. Try adding up the calories in some of these diets, you'll be surprised how low they are.

To optimally lose weight/bf ... hormone manipulation is key. I'll go into more detail when I get time next week. Jad, I'll cover a lot next week. Right now, work, classes, and employment offers have been keeping me from things.

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I was reading some of the articles John Wood posted regarding "stones". Someone Help!!! What is a good source of "vegetable protein"???

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SqeezeMasterFlash

Go to the health food store and buy TVP. Texturized vegetable protein. Really cheap, very high in protein and fiber, and doesn't really taste like anything. Kind of like an unflavored, unsalted, bag of Bacos. Cook them in with anything and they'll taste like it. Mix them with grapenuts, cooked in spaghetti. A cheap way to add protein to just about anything, and it'll help keep your fiber up.

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this is long, wordy, and probably boring, but does give some insight. I can go into great detail if you ever want me to. Shoot me an email if you want. Also, a calorie is a calorie is false. Foods/supplements activate different hormones in your body, and get utilized differently. So, saying a fat calorie is a carb calorie is false. But in the grand scheme of things, energy balance (on all sides of the spectrum) is key for maintaining/losing/gaining bw.

One of the best ways to properly control your weight to your specific needs, is by regulating insulin. Obviously, there is a plethora of other things that need to be regulated, but insulin is the king. Essentially, insulin is the most anabolic hormone in our body. Forget all of that GH crap that probably most of you have read about maximizing GH output. That’s fine, but to get the most bang for your buck, you must regulate insulin, and insulin works against GH's actions. When insulin is raised, all GH activity drops significantly (doesn't stop, but drops)

How do you regulate it, and when do you want to utilize it? To regulate insulin spikes, eat low-gi(typically low-insulin stimulation) carbohydrate choices. Insulin gets released from the pancreas in response to a rise in blood glucose levels. So, when you eat that pop-tart, once digestion occurs, and absorption into the bloodstream of the nutrients in that pop-tart, the pancreas notices an increase in blood glucose, and then releases it to shuttle the glucose to the sensitive receptors in the body. What are these receptors? They are all over tissue in the body. What we are concerned with are the receptors on the muscle. When insulin is released, and the receptors are sensitive (after a workout), insulin is likely to bind, open up the "gates", and allow glucose to flow into the muscle cell, then synthase can occur to catalyze the process of gluconeogensis (producing glycogen). <-- that is good.

EDIT: I forgot to mention what happens when you have a high glucose level in your blood when there is nothing to replenish. Basically, you have this abundance of energy, and the glucose are simply sitting in your bloodstream. So therefore, if not utilized, they get stored into the fat cells, basically, which are just storage depots. They have to get turned into triglycerides on in the adipocyte (fat storage cell) because thats how the fat is stored. The mechanism that does that? I don't know, I would have to look that up.

So, that is a very elementary explanation of the effects of insulin in regards to glucose up-take in the muscle. Obviously, you don't need insulin to uptake glucose in the muscle, but it's the best way. The other way is glut4 processes. When you contract, transporters in the muscle release from itself, bind to the surface of the muscle cell, and then open up the "gates" to allow glucose to come in.

Anyways, to regulate it, I mentioned that already, but how to utilize it?

Rules to apply are simple. Low-gi carbohydrates throughout the day, and a high-gi+protein drink after the workout. You may want to sip on one during/before your workout, but that is for people who are looking to gain weight/muscle. For power athletes, or any athletes in general, bodyweight may need to be maintained, or lowered, so sipp'n on a glucose type drink during may not be the best bet. I recommend a bcaa drink (preferably ICE from xtreme formulations). I won't get into details on why this is preferred, just trust me I guess. Then after your workout, about 1-2 hrs after, have another meal comprised of medium-gi carbs + protein.

Now, what could you do to not dip into catabolic-states? Eat about every 3 hours. Blood glucose levels stay maintained from your meal for about that long. So, food choices may be cottage cheese, and some walnuts. Don't look into it too much, but ideally, I try to use the following protocol throughout the day:

meal 1: p+c+f

meal 2: p+f

meal 3: p+c+f

meal 4: p+c

during workout: bcaa drink

post-workout: p+c shake

meal 6: p+c

meal 7: p+f

p.s. I'm not a berardi follower, but this works for me. combining fats w/ carbs is not a problem. I just indicated a typical day consumption of what I would eat. If I keep my meals moderate, I can't add more food choices (more p+c+f combos) if I want to keep at my weight (since I have a meet soon).

I use protein in every meal to keep blood glucose levels at bay. Blood glucose isn't just from carbohydrates. I split it up like I do because I try to get in all my necessary fats (sats, polys, monos), and all my carbs. I really don't worry about where I get my protein, but I do eat a red meat (great for fats too), chicken, eggs (good fats), tuna (good fats too), etc about every day. Just make sure it's quality.

For those who are pressed for time, that why MRP's are good. Usually, you want a MRP consistent with a casein type of blend. I prefer a micellar casein blend, with a good source of fat. Carl Valle (some might know him), has some good recommendations for MRP/anti-catabolic formulations. Typically, Micellar casein+Coconut Milk(or oil)+whatever else you wish for your MRP. Now, there are options like Grow!, Low Carb Grow! from Biotest (dirt cheap), but there are many others. Pick quality. No need to get a 80g / serving mrp. That’s wasteful.

Obviously, there is A LOT more involved, but that is the gist of it. I probably left out a lot of things, but more than likely, you can fill in the gaps, but I gave a pretty decent summary of how to stay anabolic throughout the day.

Also, I recommend you get your nutrition (veggies, fruits, quality protein sources, quality grain carbs, quality fats) in check then get a multi-vitamin. Then once that is covered, I would search for essential oils (fish, flax, etc), and antioxidants (vit e, vit c, etc) If your multi covers antioxidants a great deal, that isn’t an issue. But, higher doses do help athletes. Take vit E if you’re taking fish oil though. Or simply buy a good brand of fish oil that has vit E with it. Next, look into recovery supplements, then muscle/NS enhancers.

There, that is enough. Get strong.

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SilentDude

16 years old, 5,6 and I weight 205. I eat when I'm hungry... Most of the time i make sure I have some sort of protein with every meal.... The otherday I was watching A hotdog eating contest.. It got me hungry so I just ate 12 hotdogs... While I watched a 125 lb Japanese guy eat 53.. in 12 minutes... I do make sure I take a multi vitamin, alot of Vitamin C and I drink alot of water everyday. I have a big appetite... I love peanuts... Basically whatever I find in the house I eat. Mostly Hot pockets and stuff.... lots of peanuts too...

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this is long, wordy, and probably boring, but does give some insight. I can go into great detail if you ever want me to. Shot me an email if you want. Also, a calorie is a calorie is false. Foods/supplements activate different hormones in your body, and get utilized differently. So, saying a fat calorie is a carb calorie is false. But in the grand scheme of things, energy balance (on all sides of the spectrum) is key for maintaining/losing/gaining bw.

One of the best ways to properly control your weight to your specific needs, is by regulating insulin. Obviously, there is a plethora of other things that need to be regulated, but insulin is the king. Essentially, insulin is the most anabolic hormone in our body. Forget all of that GH crap that probably most of you have read about maximizing GH output. That’s fine, but to get the most bang for your buck, you must regulate insulin, and insulin works against GH's actions. When insulin is raised, all GH activity drops significantly (doesn't stop, but drops)

How do you regulate it, and when do you want to utilize it? To regulate insulin spikes, eat low-gi(typically low-insulin stimulation) carbohydrate choices. Insulin gets released from the pancreas in response to a rise in blood glucose levels. So, when you eat that pop-tart, once digestion occurs, and absorption into the bloodstream of the nutrients in that pop-tart, the pancreas notices an increase in blood glucose, and then releases it to shuttle the glucose to the sensitive receptors in the body. What are these receptors? They are all over tissue in the body. What we are concerned with are the receptors on the muscle. When insulin is released, and the receptors are sensitive (after a workout), insulin is likely to bind, open up the "gates", and allow glucose to flow into the muscle cell, then synthase can occur to catalyze the process of gluconeogensis (producing glycogen). <-- that is good.

So, that is a very elementary explanation of the effects of insulin in regards to glucose up-take in the muscle. Obviously, you don't need insulin to uptake glucose in the muscle, but it's the best way. The other way is glut4 processes. When you contract, transporters in the muscle release from itself, bind to the surface of the muscle cell, and then open up the "gates" to allow glucose to come in.

Anyways, to regulate it, I mentioned that already, but how to utilize it?

Rules to apply are simple. Low-gi carbohydrates throughout the day, and a high-gi+protein drink after the workout. You may want to sip on one during/before your workout, but that is for people who are looking to gain weight/muscle. For power athletes, or any athletes in general, bodyweight may need to be maintained, or lowered, so sipp'n on a glucose type drink during may not be the best bet. I recommend a bcaa drink (preferably ICE from xtreme formulations). I won't get into details on why this is preferred, just trust me I guess. Then after your workout, about 1-2 hrs after, have another meal comprised of medium-gi carbs + protein.

Now, what could you do to not dip into catabolic-states? Eat about every 3 hours. Blood glucose levels stay maintained from your meal for about that long. So, food choices may be cottage cheese, and some walnuts. Don't look into it too much, but ideally, I try to use the following protocol throughout the day:

meal 1: p+c+f

meal 2: p+f

meal 3: p+c+f

meal 4: p+c

during workout: bcaa drink

post-workout: p+c shake

meal 6: p+c

meal 7: p+f

p.s. I'm not a berardi follower, but this works for me. combining fats w/ carbs is not a problem. I just indicated a typical day consumption of what I would eat. If I keep my meals moderate, I can't add more food choices (more p+c+f combos) if I want to keep at my weight (since I have a meet soon).

I use protein in every meal to keep blood glucose levels at bay. Blood glucose isn't just from carbohydrates. I split it up like I do because I try to get in all my necessary fats (sats, polys, monos), and all my carbs. I really don't worry about where I get my protein, but I do eat a red meat (great for fats too), chicken, eggs (good fats), tuna (good fats too), etc about every day. Just make sure it's quality.

For those who are pressed for time, that why MRP's are good. Usually, you want a MRP consistent with a casein type of blend. I prefer a micellar casein blend, with a good source of fat. Carl Valle (some might know him), has some good recommendations for MRP/anti-catabolic formulations. Typically, Micellar casein+Coconut Milk(or oil)+whatever else you wish for your MRP. Now, there are options like Grow!, Low Carb Grow! from Biotest (dirt cheap), but there are many others. Pick quality. No need to get a 80g / serving mrp. That’s wasteful.

Obviously, there is A LOT more involved, but that is the gist of it. I probably left out a lot of things, but more than likely, you can fill in the gaps, but I gave a pretty decent summary of how to stay anabolic throughout the day.

Also, I recommend you get your nutrition (veggies, fruits, quality protein sources, quality grain carbs, quality fats) in check then get a multi-vitamin. Then once that is covered, I would search for essential oils (fish, flax, etc), and antioxidants (vit e, vit c, etc) If your multi covers antioxidants a great deal, that isn’t an issue. But, higher doses do help athletes. Take vit E if you’re taking fish oil though. Or simply buy a good brand of fish oil that has vit E with it. Next, look into recovery supplements, then muscle/NS enhancers.

There, that is enough. Get strong.

Landon,

Thank you for taking the time to explain everything but with all due respect I have to disagree with you on a couple of things. Gluconeogenesis is defined as the production of glucose from non carbohydrate sources, such as glycerol or amino acid carbon skeletons. Glycogen is the stored form of glucose and Gluconeogenesis doesn't produce glycogen it produces glucose. Gluconeogenesis doesn't usually occur if there is adequate glycogen available. This generally occurs in situations where glucose is a must and another macronutrient won't do, like when the brain needs fuel. So, I didn't quite follow you on how glucose being transported into the muscle was going to catalyze this process.

Yes, I know GH and Insulin are antagonistic to one another but no matter what your GH or Insulin levels are without a caloric deficit you won't lose weight and without a caloric surplus you won't gain weight.

Insulin inhibits lypolysis, prevents excessive production of ketones and ketoacidosis, facilitates conversion of pyruvate to freee fatty acids, stimulates lipogenesis, activates lipoprotein lipase, facilitating transport of TG into adipose tissue. I think these actions are why insulin gets such a bad rap in the weight-loss circles. People see that it stimulates lipogenesis and prevent lypolysis combined with its antagonistic actions on GH and all of its desirable actions and they are really concerned about not getting spiked levels. The thing they forget is that without excess calories substantial lypogenesis doesn't occur. Even if you eat too much at one sitting and insulin levels go sky-high, as long as you still come in under for the day, catabolic processes take place and you still lose weight. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for small frequent meals but they aren't a necessity to lose weight. Thanks again for your insight on the subject.

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Oops, I didn't mean Gluconeogenesis, I meant glycogenesis. I wrote that pretty quick, and didn't proof read it. Thanks for that.

Yes, I know GH and Insulin are antagonistic to one another but no matter what your GH or Insulin levels are without a caloric deficit you won't lose weight and without a caloric surplus you won't gain weight.

I think I stated that energy balance is the ultimate way to acheive your goals, but these things should be kept in mine to optimally acheive those goals.

regards to your last paragraph ... in both fed state, and a fasted state, insulin will inhibit fat burning in both of these, but it won't cause lipogenesis in a fasted state. Also, that is kind of like the warrior diet you said about a big meal. Yah, you'll lose weight. Optimal? No. Your body can only utilize so much foot at one time.

Thanks for your correction jad.

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Tom of Iowa2

Nice post landon.

Ironically I take about 7 meals a day also.I take liver tabs with all my meals.Old school "insurance"and their cheap. :cool

I do take in more protein than you would appear to recommend?(i take in 500-600 grams a day)...but i do (now)use a cassein/whey blend b.i have a protein shake with almost every meal.I also have a protein shake with Egg Albumin and Cassein and whey...just before bed.I require about 8000+ calories a day to 'grow'and when I dip below 6000 I lose weight.Its not water.I start to lose weight and strength.....also...I eat cashews instead of walnuts.4 0z a day.

I weigh 290 now,14-15% bodyfat,

B/P 124/80(somewhat higher than it used to be but OK).Resting pulse 64.Cholesterol 112.Low tryglycerides.Annual blood work(and because I tell the doc how MUCH proten I eat so he,annually, does Kidney and Liver Function...always Great...he always shakes his head :inno I tell him he's the one with the problem i.e. preconceived and generalized concepts of human limitations :laugh:laugh )

Also,I take in 4 table spoons of Flax seed in the morning shake.

10-15 grams of BCAA's a day and 35 grams of L-Glutamine.

1 tsp of BCAA and 2 tsp of L Glutamine half way through my work out.

Fish oil caps through out the day.Garlic.Tribulus.ZMA just before bed.

I take a multiple vitamin.4grams of C a day.A multi fruit/vegetable based phytonutrient(capsulescontains blue berires,apples,and grape extracts and 27 other vegie phytos..this is all new to me)

i also (for simplicity)dump a Carbo Force into my system right after working out and an Extreme Body 50 gram canned protein shake immediately after working out.

I'll have protein shake and some oatmeal 45 minutes later.

i am not familiar with all the science behind diets-i do a lot of reading and have had some 'classes'in college- but hardly an expert- but I do notice that most of the really huge or strong guys that I know?? DO take in a lot of protein.they eat frequent meals and they take in FAR more calories....than an average person.

Also...having said that...there are drastic differences from individual to individual.

One 'huge'guy might be at 5000 calories aday....another at 10,000.There must be something to be said of the individual differences in each persons unique metabolism?whetehr trying to gain weight or trying to lose weight?

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.

regards to your last paragraph ... in both fed state, and a fasted state, insulin will inhibit fat burning in both of these, but it won't cause lipogenesis in a fasted state. Also, that is kind of like the warrior diet you said about a big meal. Yah, you'll lose weight. Optimal? No. Your body can only utilize so much foot at one time.

Thanks for your correction jad.

I guess my next question would be why would the body be secreting insulin in the fasted state? Blood glucose levels would be pretty low in a fasted state so why would the body be secreting insulin?

You're right one big meal is far from optimal as your body can only use so much food at a time. I was only using that as an example to illustrate my point of no matter how high you jack up your insulin levels if you take in less calories than you use, you will lose weight.

An old professor of mine used to try to trick us all the time with glycogenesis/gluconeogenesis, glucose/glycogen, etc.. That was the only reason it caught my eye. Great posts man.

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I need to stop working, and trying to post on web forums.

I meant that lipogenesis is inhibited if you feed after a fasted state because your body has to replenish it's stores. Also, If you exercise, lipolysis is not inhibited. Just like why you should run in a fasted state in the am to lose weight, although it's fat and muscle. Also, the body will always be secreting insulin. There is a baseline level of insulin in your body at all times ... otherwise you would die. Sorry for the confusion.

Tom, your an animal. In regards to your questions, I think you already answered them. People's metabolism mechanisms are very dynamic, and thats why some people can simply pack on the muscle, and keep the body fat on. And others eat the wrong combination of food, and they tend to blow up. So variable.

I'm kind of glad you mentioned you took ZMA. ZMA ... people might not "feel" the effects, but ZMA (zinc,magnesium,b6) has been shown to be a great muscle relaxor ... especially beneficial taken at night. Great for days when you wreck your CNS in the gym, and a great way to aid in the process of regeneration is ZMA at night.

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Now I understand. I'm glad I'm not the only one who posts while at work. Oh well they pretend to pay and I pretend to work.

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