The size of grip enthusiasts.

[Guest 86-1005097353]

I have finally figured out why grip specialists are not huge mortals. They spend so much time training on their events that there is no energy left for regular training. Since  I had a competition to prepare for I spent most of my energy doing the blasted pinch grip. Oh, I should have kept up my lat pulldowns and squats but you all know how easy it is to have excuses not to lift those heavy weights.

I know I surprised many people by the tired state I ended up with after pinch training. I sweated and was exhausted. There is no way I felt like doing other training.

Does anyone here still maintain a bodybuilding routine on top of the grip training? I wonder if any of those bodybuilding strategies and protocols are applicable to grip training. I should think so.

[Tou]

I don't think you will find many bodybuilders on this board. Most people here are interested in strength and not in pumping and oiling biceps and pecs.

You will find powerlifters, olympic lifters, dinosaurs (Brooks Kubik really made a splash with that book), strongmen, all arounders AND grip specialists like David Horne, Nick McKinless, Richard Sorin and Tom Black.

Personnally, I once was a powerlifter wannabe wtih some good lifts. Now, I go for all around strength. I stick to the powerlifts and I lift some odd objects like a heavy sandbag and I train my grip like a madman (that's how people in the gym see me when I'm doing farmer's walk pinch grip style with 2x35's or 950 pounds deadlift lockouts).

[Guest james]

Don't forget that there are also HARDGAINERS in this board.

JAMES

[Guest 86-1005097353]

Well, so far no one has denied that most grip men are not giants of size. What about forearm size? Do the grippers have huge forearms?

You know how the general public are. They think huge muscles are strong ones. They are more right than wrong. However, many supermen are not outstanding in appearance and do not advertise what their muscles are capable of.

I think Stuart McRobert isn't right in his theories. He assumes that many are "hard gainers" and looks for explanations to justify his theory. That isn't being scientific. It is true that some gain muscle faster than others. Why is this so? Have we ever had a theory that explained differences in muscular growth. Calling someone a hard gainer is not an explanation.

You know, one of the most difficult facts to explain is the lack of growth and size of most people who lift weights or go to a gym. The uninitiated believe they will grow big muscles if they do training. That is plainly nonsense. Women are quite silly about training with resistances and believe they will become Amazons. Few ever have even with chemicals.

It is my conjecture that the reason most people do not grow is because they stop getting their muscles sore from training. No DOMS soreness means little or no growth. Oh, the gym heads are growing in a way because they are maintaining their size. You need to train hard to keep hypertrophy.

I did have two articles published in Ironman over the last 18 months about DOMS and the mechanical tension theory of hypertrophy. I might find those articles and post them at my site. Ironman edited them a lot and much of the interesting statements are missing.

[Tou]

Grippers don't necesseraly have huge forearms. Take Bruce White as an example : very small frame but what a grip master.

Grip strength relies on tendons strength primarly. Muscle comes second in my mind. Joe Kinney do not have forearms like Lee Priest but Lee Priest will never be close to close the #4.

Personnaly, I have 16,5'' forearms but I would trade them for 14'' and the ability to close the #3 and pinch a pair of 45's.

[mobsterone]

Vince - I'm currently the strongest I've ever been and train 2 times a week for strength and size and 2 times for grip strength. At 6'3" and a gnats ball under 250 pounds I might fit the criteria you suggest.

Recent grip feats include pinch gripping - just mind - 95 kilos on my thinner set up. Rolling Thunder: 116 kilos plus apparatus, Partial Deadlifts 335 kilos x 2 x 1, Thick handled db 101 kilos x 4 x 1 (more to come), Vertical bar work 101 kilos. I also am a no 3 gripper man and hold the weaver stick record.

'Normal training': Seated press 163 x 6, Leg Press 20 x 44 pound plates x 6, plus over decent poundage.

Hope thisn is what you were after.

Mobster

[Guest 86-1005097353]

Some say that tendon strength is responsible for much of strength. From my reading of physiology only muscles contract and cause motion. Ligaments and tendons are connective tissue but I don't believe they contract. I could be wrong here. That means that some small muscled people have exceptionally strong limbs. It could be that some people have more efficient levers where muscles originate and insert. That could account for superior performance. We all have witnessed thin calved black athletes jumping higher than their small calves would allow. The other explanation is that the muscles of different people might be composed of different fibres. This is more likely to account for superior strength. People with the right fibres and good leverage will be champions.

We do not know what Lee Priest or the other guys can do. We do have reports of a bodybuilder lifting the Inch Dumbbell.

When someone says they have a 16.5 inch forearm how is that measured and is it pumped or cold? I have always measured my forearms with the arm straight and the wrist bent inward.  My right forearm is 13 5/8" cold.

I would predict that guys with huge forearms should be good at grip feats. Pinching might be an exception, but maybe not. Very few people specialize in grip feats. Most bodybuilders want big forearms and most get them without specialized forearm work. Chuck Sipes had incredible forearms and was good at grip feats.

Samir Bannout told me that from his observations around the gyms that the guys with the biggest muscles were also the strongest in that movement. Thus, Chris Dickerson was strong on calf raises and Paul Dillett, Mike Matarazzo and Bill Grant are strong on biceps curls.

[mannek]

hey vince,

if your looking for scientific information on muscle growth(or lack of ), tendon and ligament strength and weight training try these two very interesting forums;

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/supertraining

http://weightrainer.virtualave.net/cgi-bin...d/ikonboard.cgi

all the best

mannek

[Roark]

Vince,

Among the listing of articles in the FAQ section,

is mention of a man leveraging two 25 lb hammers,

each with a 30" handle. His arms are parallel to

each other, and to the floor, and the photo shows

the hammers about 5" from his forehead as he looks

up at them.

The man, Murl Mitchell, placed second at the Sr. Nationals

WL Chps in 1945, in the 123 lb class! He appears to

have very thick wrists for such a bodyweight.

In my opinion bodyweight ( in grip ) matters less as the hand

is isolated. So, squeezing a gripper is much more hand-

isolated than a one-hand deadlift which involves other

body parts.

You certainly may measure your forearm in any manner

you choose, but the measurement increases if the wrist

is bent, and increases more if the elbow is bent. The

oldtimers, generally, were measured with the wrist in a

straight line with the forearm and the forearm in a straight

line with the upper arm (outstretched arm). The fist was

clenched (not goosenecked). Most of the measurements

you see in the mags for the oldtimers were taken in this

manner, so comparing to them requires this method. If

the result in this position is a measurement twice that

of the wrist, you have a world class measurement. And,

it should go without saying that we are discussed lean

muscle, not obese size.

I posted something similar to this when first joining in

on the board and it raised from eyebrows, but Willoughby

was adamant that this ratio was world class, and if

you find someone with it, you have found a rare forearm

ratio.

Tou, was your 16.5" measurement taken this way, and what

is your wrist circumference?

[Guest kINGPIN]

Good point James.  I too am a hardgainer and this not through lack of effort, eating, reading or applying.  I consider myself to be a bodybuilder as i aim to get bigger, but there aint no baby oil going on my biceps.      But in order to get bigger I lift heavy.   Anyone can get bigger, but to what degree is dictated by there samatotype (which is most of the time how a hardgainer is classed but there are exceptions to the rule on both ends of the scale).

Andy

[Guest StrongerthanArne]

Roark, just measured mine the way you suggested. My wrist is 17.8 cm (7'') and my forearm 32.9 cm (12 15/16''), which gives a 1.85 ratio (my forearms are very lean). Would that be an average ratio?

[Roark]

StrongerthanArne,

You probably are in the high end because you

are approaching double the wrist circumference,

and you are lean.

When I measured Manfred Hoeberl's forearm in

1995 his wrist was 8-3/8" and straight forearm 16"

a 1.91 difference. When he goosenecked his forearm

to a right angle with his upper arm, the forearm

measured 17.5"

One way I have tricked some bodybuilders who do

not want their biceps measured, is to simply ask if

they would allow their wrist to be measured. You will

not encounter a biceps that is triple a wrist. In

Manfred's case his biceps were 25-1/2" cold and he is

the only man I know of who just disproved my previous

sentence. A 2.5 ratio is a highly developed arm!

You may remember Charles A, Sampson claimed a

wrist/biceps ratio of 4.2, saying his wrist measured

4.5" and his biceps 19". Sampson actually had a 17"

biceps. A newborn baby's wrist would be about 4.5".

I have never seen any newborn babies with 19" biceps.

But I try to be open minded...

[Guest Jeff Roark]

Joe,

Just measured mine too, forearm length (backside) 10in, wrist 7 3/4 in, forearm straight, wrist straight 13 1/4in, right arm. My wrist may be larger than normal due to the genetic make up I possess. Also, I loved the literature you sent me, good stuff. I am also only 5'5 and i weigh about 185-190 at this time and wear 34 waist jeans.

[Bob Lipinski]

I am seriously into powerlifting, grip work is more of a fun diversion.

I've always had big forearms, straight they measure about 14 1/2"

[Tou]

I measured my right forearm with straight arm but making a gooseneck. I did it again today and it is really 16,5''. With a straight forearm and an open hand, I am at 15''.

When I measured it, my forearms are cold (but still sore from last gripper workouts, don't know if it might add to the circumference).

My wrists are 7,5'' and my biceps are 18'' when flexed.

[Tou]

I measured my right forearm with straight arm but making a gooseneck. I did it again today and it is really 16,5''. With a straight forearm and an open hand, I am at 15''.

When I measured it, my forearms are cold (but still sore from last gripper workouts, don't know if it might add to the circumference).

My wrists are 7,5'' and my biceps are 18'' when flexed.

Wrist curl is the first exercise I did when I joined a gym. I did it every two days with heavy weights when I was playing hockey. I always had a big slap shot but wanted a bigger one so I tought that strong forearms would help. I was right because I won a slapshot contest last winter.

My father don't train with weights but he has the biggest calves I ever see and some good forearms too. It might be genetic.

[Tou]

Sorry for the double post, my computer is so slow that I tought the post had not been sent.

[Roark]

Tou,

Remarkable ratio 7.5 : 15, plus if you clenched your

fist, which is allowed under the old system, you'll

get a little more size. I was expecting you to tell us

your wrist was about 8". I have the same wrist size

as you; but going toward my elbow, sadly, I get left

behind. Way behind!

[Sybersnott]

I'm like Bob.  I too had big forearms when I was a kid.

I'm 5'10", 230 pounds and have 14 1/2" forearms cold.  When I do HEAVY gripwork, I really feel it in my forearms.  Having big forearms is no indication of grip strength.

I had a brief e-mail session with Greg Kovacs.  I asked him about the Capatins Of Crush grippers, and his own grip strength.  He admitted to me that once at a bodybuilding show, someone handed him a IM #2 and asked him to close it.  He couldn't.  He told me that grip strength wasn't something he was concerned with - although he said he needed to work on his.  So much for the "world's strongest bodybuilder".  

Today, everyone is concerned with BIG muscles instead of being strong.  Barf!  I'd rather be strong than have those inflated artifical muscles anyday.

[Guest]

I’m with Snot. I would rather have something I can use -strong muscles- than something of no use that you must lumber around all day -big weak muscles-. If my muscles get big and strong great if not I prefer strong and small.

The body however doesn't work like that. Strength will increase with proper training and size will lag behind but it WILL follow. Usually in bursts rather than a constant increase like with strength increases. Your strength to size ratio is nonetheless determined by genetics, tendon insertion angels, the amount of muscle fibers you were born with, the type of muscle fiber your forearms are predominantly made up of (type 1, 2, 3) etc.

I measure- 9inch wrist and 11 ½ forearm, cold and everything straight and relaxed.

[underdawg]

i'm with you guys, i'd rather be strong than big any day.  there's a few guys walkin around here all pumped up and so full of creatine that their piss glows and everybody thinks it's impressive.  but just the other week one of these guys barely won an arm wrestling match with a guy that had all of a 13" bicep and no more than a 9" forearm.  i almost fell in the floor i laughed so hard.

[Guest]

    Their piss glows    

That’s the funniest thing I have ever heard!!!!!!

You da man underdawg!!

[Guest]

Just thought of this.

With most things in life- cars, planes, rockets, mobile phones , audio speakers etc. engineers try to get a better power to weight/size ratio why wouldn’t we do this with our bodies? Small and Strong Rules

[underdawg]

that's a good thought genetic.  maximum efficiency from minimal space  

[Guest 86-1005097353]

Some of the grip events such as Rolling Thunder are dominated by very large men. Tall men with large hands and heavy bodyweight. According J. V. Askem's article in "Milo" the smallest man in the 2001 championships was Brian Schoorveld at 6' 2" and the lightest was Janne Virtanen who weighed about 285 pounds. He said, "all these men have hands the size of catchers' mitts."  The world record is 265.4 pounds held by Jan Bartl.

This is another occasion where a manufacturer staged a grip contest. The participants seem to be the same guys who dominate the World Strongest Man contests. Not sure if their expenses were paid to the event but it was a good turn out. Where were the lads from the Grip Board? Or did some compete? Jan Bartl from Cze won this year lifting 258.5 pounds with his unfavoured left hand! All top seven men lifted over 223.5 pounds and 3 men missed their opener.

Coming from a bodybuilding background the old Popeye power never appealed to me. I prefer to look and be strong. People tend to leave those people alone. Everyone knows armwrestling and some of the grip events do not always favour some large muscled men. If I had a choice between being super on grip feats or having forearms and upperarms like Lee Priest I am sure I'd pick the latter.    He must be very strong in arm training.