Freestyle Bending

[EricMilfeld]

Not to start another controversy (though I offer no guarantee of this being avoided), but I thought up a name for the style of bending I, and many others, employ for our heavier bends. How about Freestyle Bending? Or Unbraced Freestyle Bending? I think this term could be used to describe what I believe to be a legitimate form of bending. Sure, it doesn't test pure wrist strength, but if you are attempting to be bend a steel bar without bracing, using only supple cloth, with your bare hands, freestyle bending would encompass any technique you wish to utilize to get the job done.

We now have Kinking, Dual Leather Pad Bending (which by definition would limit the bend to use of specific muscle groups), so why not Freestyle as a recognized legitimate form of bending? I think the three forms would compliment eachother nicely. I guess what I'm proposing is a variation of what David and Pat are calling Normal bending. So Freestyle would be a broader classification of the Normal bending, with Freestyle allowing for any unbraced technique and wrapping method, provided the wrapping consists of only supple, cloth-like materials. Anyways, just an idea. I personally will adopt this term to describe my own bending style, and select exercises other than steel bending to train and test my wrist strength. But I still think, regardless of bending style, that U-ing steel is working a lot of wrist, forearm, and hand musculature, though to different degrees.

[OldGuy]

Sounds good to me, and it's what most people are doing anyway going by the bending videos I have seen. Let the majority rule.

[bballdad]

I read on benders sight a few months ago when

I first started bending, About guys benching 400-500

lbs but couldn't bend a blue nail or 60d don't quite remember

now which it was. He said reason these guys couldn't bend

it was because they hadn't strengthened their wrist or done any

specific wrist strengthing exercises. They hadn't developed the wrist

ligaments and tendons to transfer that muscle power through to

the wrist and hands. That made alot of sense to me and even more so

after I had bent alittle longer. It looks like to me on a max bend your using

a tremendous ammount of wrist strength just to keep the wrist

stabilized and from an excessive range of motion that could lead to

a torn tendon or lig.

Oh yeah Eric, free style bending style sounds good to me.

Edited April 25, 2004 by bballdad

[Mikael Siversson]

Stating the obvious, the majority can do whatever the majority wants to. It is more of a question of a freestyle certification organised by whom? David Horne adopted Pat's rules for bending, where it states that padding cannot be allowed for gaining leverage advantages. Obviously Pat did not expect (the largely unintentional) streching and twisting of the rules to the extent that we have seen. I can't see how David Horne will allow excessive use of overhanging material and complex, indestructible padding allowing full force to be applied at right angles to a more-or-less straight bar, while at the same time adhearing to Pat's rules. Basically, I am not sure whom you are asking to include what you call freestyle bending. Is it Bill, Pat, David or someone else?

[austinslater]

Bballad you make a good point. I have years of powerlifting experience and Im horrible at bending but as my wrists get stronger progress has been fast.

Eric I think your idea is fine. Like Old guy said this is how most bend anyways. As a side note I switched from one rag to cutting it into 2 without the overhand and it made a huge difference. If you guys havent tried 2 rags I would suggest it. Instead of pulling on the rag and fighting it as well as the nail, you have much less resistance and the middle stage of the bend was extremely easy. I also kept the outsides at 1" just to make sure, which in my humble opinion didnt seem to make much of a difference. Thanks to Dave and Bballad for the rag tip!

[jad]

No disrespect intended towards Eric as his past insights have really helped my progression but I thought this form of bending was already called the Holle style. When I watched your vid it looked like to me you were just mimicking Gavin's performance on the Red in MILO(hand-position wise), which is why I didn't understand why people had such a problem with it. Freestyle by definition does have more possibilities though and would be a great way to avoid future controversy.

Edited April 25, 2004 by jad

[kerbjr]

I would even like to see what people can do braced, although I can personally do more double underhand than I can overhand braced. Dennis Rogers is an animal using this method,and I cant match him with a vise.....The certs do need some guidelines, but for those of us just having fun, do what you please....Brett

[Mikael Siversson]

I also kept the outsides at 1" just to make sure...

To make sure of what? Do you mean my original suggestion which I later modified to no overhang at all? You make it sound like a rule set in stone.

[austinslater]

I wasnt worried about what you modified. I did it as to what Pat suggested as legal.

Side note: Since you thought one long rag was cheating why did I see a increase in strength when I switched to 2 short rags? If others want to use a long rag in there bending thats fine and I think it hurts them not helps them. Just my 2 cents

Austin

[Mikael Siversson]

I wasnt worried about what you modified. I did it as to what Pat suggested as legal.

You are hurting my feelings. Where did Pat suggest one inch? I could not find it.

[austinslater]

Not sure why that hurt your feelings. You wont find it. So now your your saying that the padding whatever it is cant hang over at all? So anything on the end of the nail would be cheating? How do you do the crush down? do you push on the nail itself with no padding whatsoever? Interesting.

[Mikael Siversson]

Now I am getting more confused than normal. First you say that, I quote:..."wasnt worried about what you modified. I did it as to what Pat suggested as legal." Then when I ask were Pat made this statement, you say I won't find it.

Secondly, you find a number of unanswered questions by yourself interesting. What is so interesting about that?

[austinslater]

Ive talked to Pat about it personally. The questions were left unanswered by you. How do you crushdown the nail with no padding? If using a long rag is cheating as you say why did I find an increase in strength using 2 rags? Pretty self explanitory to me.

[Rick Browne]

I have seen John Brookfields' new vid on his style of bending.....

Demonstrating the material he uses to wrap the 60d nail with

went like this..........

He used a Mechanics shop rag and folded it in half length wise.

He then centered the nail and folded each end of the rag over

3x. The folds appeared to be about 1 inch each. The nail head and

point are now buried in the 3 folds. The end of the rag is buried in his

hands as he begins to show the bend.....

He also suggests that you can use a smaller piece of material

bunched up in the hand that is positioned on the point end.

One can hardly tell he has a rag on the nail at all

[Mikael Siversson]

(replying to Austinslater)I see. Maybe he will change his mind; I think people otherwise will be tempted to pull on whatever sticks out. The crushdown would have to be done at a narrow angle. Needless to say, the ends of the nail would have to be of Challenge bar standard. Using a long cloth is in itself not cheating. It is cheating when it is used to gain leverage by excerting a pull on it. You probably did better with a two piece cloth because you were not pulling on the one piece cloth to begin with. The crushdown dilemma stems from the fact that some have developed a style where they press their hands into the ends of the nail almost at right angles, effectively making bending into largely a pectoral exercise from start to finish rather than from mid-point to finish.

Edited April 25, 2004 by Mikael Siversson

[Bill Piche]

David does all the bending stuff. I am just a spectator on the sidelines and his video slave when videos come in I convert them.

Oh oh. I see this thread going back to the previous two threads that were closed. Haven't we beat the bend out of this topic for now? No pun intended.

I don't mind debate and all, let's keep the tone nice ok?

[gazza]

At the end of the day,if we are going to eliminate excessive pec/shoulder strength in bending,then the bend has to be started and finished in the John Brookfield style,double overhand at the waist,but dont expect many REDS to be bent if any this way

Since this is the gripboard and we are all training/aiming for grip/forearm/hand/wrist/finger/thumb strength then why not implement a JB style bend also with minimum cloth,maybe use Davids new 2"x2" leather cloth approach,but we would all have to use identical leather pieces or this will be interpretted as outside of the rules.

We now have Ironminds rules for bending the RED,we have Davids Cert Bars and soon to be implemented leather padding rules,also each competition will have its own set of rules set out by the organisers etc,anybody that does not want to partisipate in the above is as far as i see free to bend in whatever FREE style they want to,of coarse this may or may not be recognised as a true legit bend,but alot of fun never the less

[Clay Edgin]

Let's all just bend barehanded behind our backs!

Eric, freestyle sounds good to me.

[BJones]

I have bent a 60d with Brookfield - wrapped in the manner described above.

I have bent 60d and Grade 5 bolts with what I would now concider a lot of padding and three inches of overhang.

I now bend with a minimal amount of padding and an inch of overhang and I still bend Grade 5s and 60d nails.

I start double overhand and finish high overhand (Holle style).

It sounds like some wish to make everyone bend with the same style out of fear of someone having an advantage that they don't have or an advantage they cannot make work.

There are different styles of bending because people have different leverage systems in their bodies and different strengths.

Some people Deadlift sumo style - Some people Deadlift conventional - are sumo pulls less valid than conventional?

When we start the nail is straight - unbraced and with "appropriate" wrapping - the nail is bent to a U less than 2" apart. Bending - normal bending, freestyle bending... whatever makes you happy.

Just bend the friggin nail!

The sad thing about this is it is making people question their bends. Should we question all the COCs because they were set instead of credit carded?

This may get yanked but come on - Just bend the friggin nail.

Brett

[gazza]

Brett

You hit the NAIL on the head Bro

[Mikael Siversson]

Some people Deadlift sumo style - Some people Deadlift conventional - are sumo pulls less valid than conventional?

Ehh, yes they are. A real man does not spread his legs apart like a woman.

[BJones]

Mikael,

You are kidding - right???????

I hope you are anyway.

So - it is your way or no way - if I am understanding you.

Brett

[Mikael Siversson]

Mikael,

You are kidding - right???????

I hope you are anyway.

So - it is your way or no way - if I am understanding you.

Brett

Of course I am not kidding. The sumo style is just another way of avoiding hard work.

[EricMilfeld]

jad, I agree. Though I've never seen a video of Gavin's style, my style does seem to be quite similar to his. Freestyle bending would include all types of unbraced bending.

Brett, Well put post!

Mikael, You asked whom I was addressing with my suggestion. I already assume Pat will rewrite the rules to disallow the style (or atleast my padding preference) I use. My suggestion for the adoption of Freestyle bending is for the bending community as a whole. If someone promoting a bending certification process chooses not to certify Freestyle bending, it's obviously their choice. I've read the rules that John Beatty has adopted for his newly formed bending certification, and see that Freestyle bending would be allowed.

Edited April 25, 2004 by EricMilfeld

[Mikael Siversson]

Eric,

I am disappointed by your response to the concerns expressed on the board. You seem like a man of great determination and I am sure you would eventually be able to bend a red in a more conventional and broadly acceptable style, had you chosen to pursue it.