gamidon Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I have always understood that speed forces adaptation in ligaments and tendons. Lifting fast and accelerating the weight. Soviet lifters are not big fans of eccentric training. Does anyone do any training with easier grippers with a fast explosive movement? Do you notice any results from this type of training? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Due to the nature of springs, grippers have accomodating resistance. This also means that there is no momentum and thus no sticking point. Momentum has very little to do with closing a gripper in my experience. Lifting explosively might be a good way to force adaptation in ligaments and tendons I don't know that for sure. I do know that it is definately a good way to rip something loose. If you injure a tendon or ligament you can look forward to a minimum of 8 weeks of rehab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbjr Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Its the weight or resistance that has the biggest effect on tendons, ligaments and bone, speed has more to do with explosive power, or converting muscle tissue to fast twitch fibers. A case could be made however that speed coupled with resistance certainly places more stress on these tissues which in theory would cause increased adaptation. I know for a fact that speed training has increased my bench press, but has also caused some tendonititis....Brett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Edgin Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Brett hit on a good point. Fast twitch muscle fibers response well to explosive training. I think it was someone on the board here who said that speed + power = strength. This coincides with what some OL teams are doing, as well as the WSB routines. Like John said, grippers are all dynamic resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 If momentum is not a factor, why is it harder to close a gripper slowly than it is rapidly? Assuming you can close a particular gripper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 This isn't actually meant meant as a contentious point, but if momentum is not a help then why is it easier to close a gripper with an "explosive" set?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 This isn't actually meant meant as a contentious point, but if momentum is not a help then why is it easier to close a gripper with an "explosive" set?? Pretty much my point. Is this a "Mc" thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Is this a "Mc" thing? John, I can find no other explanation!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamidon Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 What got me thinking of this was a comment on the message boards. I will not name anyone but one member thanked another for his advise on curing his tendonitis. I asked what the advise was and it was to use a lighter gripper for a while. I thought about htat and why it would be true and it makes a lot of sense with what I have learned lifting weights. The speed and explosive movements cause the streatch reflex tobe the strongest and strengthen tendons better thn just heavy weights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anuwbius Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Well, there are many things to consider when specifically training tendons. They only become stronger when ripped (micro tears), and basically only get TRULY worked when used plyometrically, and or SUDDEN, FAST and fairly heavy resistance is applied. The muscle and tendons need to be brought to semi maximal failure instantaneously. That is, from rest to instant tension. That is the key. Isometrics can be used for this as well, but don’t produce the same results. In the isometric sense, one must simply apply resistance as hard as they can from a relaxed state for about 1-2 seconds, over and over. In turn, pulling at the tendons and tearing them. Other then that, HEAVY eccentric movements build the tendons. One reason why negatives on grippers can produce amazing results as well as leave the tendons in a weak state with a need for a longer recovery time. Some examples are push ups where you throw yourself up and clap, when you land, your pushing muscles that are used go from no resistance in the air, to suddenly slamming onto the floor having to stop your body from hitting the ground. This sudden jolt of resistance causes micro tears in the tendons (and muscle) more so then lets say, just doing normal push ups. Another example is moon jumps (the name I learned them under) upon which you touch the ground, them jump as high as you can, reaching your arms as high into the air as you can, only to land and touch the ground again, repeating the movement until failure. This sudden jolt of landing on the ground and along with having to force yourself back up work the muscles, but more specifically the tendons. Along these lines, I feel like taking a trainer or #1, or another gripper that you don’t need a set for, and going from a fairly relaxed hold on the gripper (simply keeping it in your hand) to SLAMMING it down as hard and fast as you can will produce some good results. I say one that does not need a set because when and if you set the gripper, you are applying tension, and that jolt of resistance needed is lost to a large degree. Oh, and one more thing, muscle fibers cant be converted to one type or the other. They are as they are, power movements just focus on type II much more. Power movements being an exercise done quickly or explosively. Power is the real key, much to do with functional strength. I am one who loves body calisthenics, so all of my polymeric/tendon builders incorporate body weight. Regardless, I highly recommend basic tendon training into anyone’s routine, whether they be clapping pushups or what! Sorry for the rant, but when one is attempting to become NSCA strength and conditioning specialist, it just comes out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianders1 Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 (edited) Oh, and one more thing, muscle fibers cant be converted to one type or the other. They are as they are, power movements just focus on type II much more. I was going to mention the same thing, you are born with a certain ratio of fast to slow twitch fibers and you can't change that. You can train with emphasis on one or the other, but you can't change the ratio. Other than slamming grippers closed, you can also do some tossin' with block weights and sledges as well as the hanging gripper close, all described by Brookfield in MOHS or in IM's Grip Tip of the Month. Edited March 17, 2004 by ianders1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorfinn Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/84/1/97 Study that shows benefits of preloading/pretension http://jp.physoc.org/cgi/content/full/536/2/649 Tendon training study I find very interesting. Pretty much agrees with what Anuwbius says. http://jp.physoc.org/cgi/content/full/540/2/635 I just threw this is one in for no reason :-) http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=45&issueID=2 About muscle fibers and how one could increase the amount of fast twitch fibres. I think there is some truth in this study but, I'm not sure though. http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol21/table.htm Just a lot of studies that pretty much says skill is most important. Not sure if I agree with everything but,... Just some studies out there. Anyone can put a spin on studies though. I truly think trying to gain elasticity in tendons is a good way to become more explosive rather than high amounts of fast twitch muscle fibers. I think once the tendons have a high amount of elasticity then focus on strengthening them (increase their stifness) is what will seperate wannabes from champs. One must always improve or maintain their elasticity though. Someone on www.drsquat forum posted these (not the rohan or avantlabs) awhile ago and thought they were very informative. -Keith- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubthewonderscot Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 It sounds like the Ivanko Super Gripper would be a good tool for this explosive gripping. You can deload or load it to just the right resistence, and then slowly increase the resistence in smaller jumps. I may start trying this tonight. W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 why is it easier to close a gripper with an "explosive" set?? I wouldn't know, I don't use a set. Are you sure youre not confusing momentum with kinetic energy? Have fun if youre going to train explosively! Train fast to be fast and make sure to rip those tendons good and hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 What is a set, and where can I get one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonL Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 speed + power = strength I thought it was strength + speed = power ??????? JasonL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isaac Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 speed + power = strengthI thought it was strength + speed = power ??????? JasonL I was about to say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamidon Posted March 18, 2004 Author Share Posted March 18, 2004 Excellent articles. Agrees with what I have learned (hence why I think they are excellent ). Did I hear some people will be adding a Westside barbell slant to their training???? Me (Maximum effort - overcrush and Negatives) and DE (Dynamic effort explosive crush) It is an interesting theory that I will try and see what I feel the results are. Let me know if you are trying something similar and how you are doing from time to time. By the way you can use a set and explosive close, just set completely with the free hand and slam your gripping hand closed without pre-loading it with the gripper. (become a deep set artist ) Please be careful not to overdo this as John Wood warnign about hurting you tendon will set you back. Enjoy hearing others opinions either in favor or against. There probably is no real right answer, but that each person will react to specific training stimulus in there own way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sausage Fingers Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 John, whats up bro? hey so do you think that closing the grippers slower is safer verses closing them explosivly? Also how would you reccomend building tendon strength? i have always done heavy strap deadlifts, what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I would guess closing slower would be safer as there is a lessened chance of ripping something. I do think that you get more out of training more deliberately. Though not so slow as that ridiculous super-slow. Tendons will strengthen with heavy support work. My advice is to get rid of the straps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foggymountainmuscle Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I truly think trying to gain elasticity in tendons is a good way to become more explosive rather than high amounts of fast twitch muscle fibers. I think once the tendons have a high amount of elasticity then focus on strengthening them (increase their stifness) is what will seperate wannabes from champs. One must always improve or maintain their elasticity though. Tendons are not elastic, at all. If a tendon increases it's length, it tears. Ligaments will rip if they increas in length by 7%. If tendonous tissue has any elasticity, it is far lower than 7%, which is effectively nothing. A discusion about tendon strength and nothing about partials? I feel they help me in just about every muscle. At 155lbs. doing a 805lbs. quater squat will micro tear tendons. I know they work because I can VISABLY see more tendons on my body. For gripper partials, I'd just try to close a gripper you're nowhere near closing. Heavy singles build up the tendons too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Some people get lots of benefit from training with speed, some don't. If your goal is to lift as much weight as possible, I would recommend it. Never got hurt from it. A little aches now and then, but then again powerlifting tends to do that no matter what. As far as the goal of lifting improving your 1 rep max, lifting deliberately or slowly tends to make me sluggish. For the grippers, I would say it is less momentum than endurance- If you close the gripper slowly it means you can exert the high level of force for a much longer time. Much like it is harder to hold the gripper closed for 20 seconds than 10 seconds. A fast set is easier for similar reasons- It takes more energy to hold the gripper in place and start it moving. I agree with John, there is next to no momentum for the gripper because of the high spring tension. I don't even think any of the 4 closers could put so much force on the trainer that handles kept moving after they stopped applying force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amaury Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anuwbius Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Its true, any true heavy resistance will rip some tendons (in a good way), but there are ways to target them compared to every day resistance training. When I say ripping something, just in case, I dont mean it in a severe way, only in a manner that will heal stronger. As for the slower or not, the slower you go, the maximal amount of muscle fibbers you will recruit for the exercise. BUT the amount of power (power being strength + speed) one has can show mastery and true dominance over the specific weight and or exercise. Just realize that ones tendons are always in effect in every effeort agaisnt resistance, then ask yourself what you have done to train those tendons. They will alwayse get worked, but how often to go target them?? Just remember that there are many things going into a lift, much much more then muscles, they are only a part of it. This is a half drunlen rant! ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.