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My thoughts on the arm wrestling scene these days


Tommy J.

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3 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

I mean equating ones strength with their knowledge is irrational. There's probably some 80 year old amazing weightlifting coaches that are weaker than me, but of course they know more about training and could be more successful than I am. Plus it may not be a goal, I can teach someone to bench too, but mine is pitiful because I don't like benching and I don't do it. You can be smart and weak or strong and dumb, and everything in between. 

Okay its baffling that I’m having to repeat myself over and over in this thread. Nobody said he just has to have strong lifts to have merit. What I’m saying is he has to EITHER have strong lifts OR (OR, OR, OR) have trained someone that has some VERY respectable lifts. And to the extent he’s pushing his mantra, the anti goes up and up and up with regards to giving his sentiments merit. Meaning- either he or his students need to, at this point in the conversation, be INCREDIBLY strong to give his talk merit.

And ones feelings about me seeking that information are of no consequence to me, or any other actual man here. And frankly, I find it a bit embarrassing I just had to even make a pit stop post to address possible hurt feelings.

you’ll have to forgive me if it seems as tho I’m focused more on his* lifts than his possible students lifts. Since I believe at this point he is very young, it makes perfect sense to me to assume he’s actually never trained anyone. That, and if he had trained anyone, he’d have certainly mentioned it by now. So to keep things as simple as I can (because apparently I have to keep things super simple here...) I skipped even asking if he trained anyone to any noteworthy degree. And thus far, he has at least been honest about his strength exploits. So I’m sure he’ll also be honest when he reports he’s never trained anyone directly either.

mkay?

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Yea we've been in agreement this whole time so maybe I'm the one being unclear.

Either way it's irrelevant, nobody will ever get elite strength with these methods, it reminds me of the early days of UFC when everybody thought that the best fighter in the world is some monk in a cave with ancient secrets that would beat anybody in a fight, yet they never materialized because of course that person doesn't exist.

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1 hour ago, Climber028 said:

I mean equating ones strength with their knowledge is irrational. There's probably some 80 year old amazing weightlifting coaches that are weaker than me, but of course they know more about training and could be more successful than I am. Plus it may not be a goal, I can teach someone to bench too, but mine is pitiful because I don't like benching and I don't do it. You can be smart and weak or strong and dumb, and everything in between. 

I think Tommy made it very clear. I will rephrase what I said. To advice people who are stronger than him or weaker, he needs to have credibility which he clearly doesn't. If he lifts more than us with training (not someone so strong and doesn't have an ounce of knowledge about it, like when Khaled IronGrip started he lifted the 98 KG inch level and a good leveled Millennium lift. But guess what? He didn't know anything about training back then and that's why it was me coaching him until now). If he has strong students. Or if he tripled or quadrupled his bench let's say his max was 50 pounds and now he gets 150 or 200 pounds. I would surely respect his methods even though I can do way more because his percentage is way higher than I. But talking nonsense like thousands and millions of reps in a day or so comon.

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All I can say is the kid is gonna shit a brick once he sees strength gains with way less movement and way less over thinking

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On 1/5/2022 at 5:42 PM, Tommy J. said:

Fwiw @Dylan you are welcome to train with me whenever. But I’m gonna give you a hard time when you get to about rep 17-18 at 60% and burnout. 😬

Maybe. I'm poor and am working on consistency. Being poor doesn't bother me to be clear, I live with family. Def doing more than 20 reps though at 60%. Just got done with a 1 hour forearm workout! At least 30 minutes under tension too. Good weight, 40 - 70% getting muscular failure on one arm then switching to the other.

21 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

I told you earlier I’ve done 104 push-ups non stop. And that does not suffice for doing 60% at 104 non stop reps with a barbell on the bench.

I mean how many days are you doing that though. I assure you that going to muscular failure multiple sets 5x a week or 7x a week every month will do a lot. From what you're saying that's not what you did though.

 

21 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

and you are on crack if you believe a 1,000lb+ deadlifter can do 33 sets of 3 reps with 1,000lbs in a single workout, let alone a single day. That’s 99 reps bro!…. Repeat.. that would be deadlifting 1,000lbs 99 times in 1 day!…. 😳 no way josè.

No no the video is of a guy doing bench, squat, deadlift and the total of all 3 together adds up to 1000 lbs lol.

21 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

I’ll give another example of super heavy lifts not being done to that extent. Julius Maddox is a near 800lb raw bencher. Like, officially, with a pause and a press command. Like, as in, for 1 rep… And it’s STILL highly probable that he’s benched even 700+ less than 30-40 times in his life. Let alone a single workout. 

Honestly whatever strength level people have to start with body weight when trying to push reps up.

12 hours ago, Alawadhi said:

Those people whom I met and trained with are the strongest on Earth and they trained way different than this silly method of yours. Not even Mike Tyson did that. And guess what too? I am strong myself without doing any of that. Will you next say that with your formula you can punch so fast the the oxygen burns around your fist thus making a fire fist? Another legit question, are you a troll? Or just a delusional person? Something along the lines of Ryan Blue Bowen. Perhaps even surpassing him. And when you say you gain 2 inches? What do you mean? 2 inches to your forearms? Chest? Something else? What?! Dude you will get strong if you train right. Stop with day dreaming really. It won't get you anywhere. 

Well you can train however you want but all I am saying is that you can get stronger with body weight regular movements and it's good for you to do so.

Think about it this way: Person [A] can bench 400 lbs and do 50 body weight push ups at 200 lbs. Person [B] can bench 400 lbs and do 500 body weight push ups at 200 lbs. If it were possible to remove all confounding interfering variables then the guy that can also do 500 push ups would recover better from workouts and be able to do more in the gym even if that just means a few more seconds of time under tension per set. Of course maybe Person [A] can bench 300 lbs for 30 reps because he's a beast that trained for it, but Person [B] can only do 300 lbs for 20 reps because he was training up his push ups over 5 years, while the other guy was training with 200 - 350 pounds. So specificity is still good. 

But if you're literally doing push ups until you're in pain, exhausted and have to slow down or get nauseous you will get a good result from it BEYOND specificity. That applies at any weight; just going HARD will get you results everywhere. So Person [C]: Can do 2000 push ups and his 200 lbs body weight. He just trains till he wants to puke then until he wants to scream and kill people then until he cries or wants to beg God for mercy or something. He got from 20 push ups to 2000 push ups in a year and a half let's say. I'm sure someone could do it in a year though. If he could bench 150 lbs at 20 push ups, when he can do 2000 push ups he will be able to bench more like 350+ lbs and easily train up his 90%, 80%, 70% and so on ranges to high reps as well but they'll already be pretty high.

Now imagine a guy who can do 2000 push ups adding 20 lbs and getting his reps back up from there. That's a slight increase in weight practically. I assure you he will be pushing his bench up every 20 lbs he adds and gets up to 2000 push ups. A 200 lb person pushes 140 lbs --> what's the NFL combine record people go for? 225 lbs AMRAP? Or is it 250 lbs? Highest I've seen online was 56 reps from one of the Strongmen in the Brian Shaw/ Eddie Hall circle. Imagine the 200 lb guy getting up to 2000 reps with an extra 60 lbs on; nothing crazy just incrementally up to an extra 60 lbs. That person would be pushing closer to a thousand on the NFL combine record. Do you really think such a person wouldn't be just monsterously strong?

I just think progress is easiest pushing through the subjective difficulty from body weight work and then adding a small amount of weight after hitting well over 1000 reps in one go. Like, if I want to beat every world record natural I would do full body calisthenics and wear weights 24/7 while doing a lot of stamina/ agility stuff just trying to get the consistency down FIRST.

Walking forward, backward, sideways, 30 minutes every day get the stamina and agility up while wearing weights, do a full body routine with 1 set to start out every day keeping the weights on because I'm wearing them anyway to make sitting at my desk a bit of a workout, and literally just adding a little bit every day until I can train at a low to mid intensity all day every day while still doing the heavy work, the grip and neck work, the calf work, all that for a few sets each day. Then working up to more and more reps or slowing the reps down for time under tension, more sets, more moving on my feet, maybe break dancing type movements just to get every angle while the weights are on because this shit takes forever to take off and I like the training method and don't hate weights. Back bridges, reverse push ups, anything mobile. Walking hills, jogging when the weight is easy and legs are strong in enough ways I can catch myself and my hands/ wrists/ arms are strong enough I can catch myself if I fall and my neck is strong enough I'm fine if I hit my head (or just be careful). Incorporate a little duck walking and get the stride length up. Lunges. Crawls. Bar work. That just makes the most rational sense to me. Work capacity and mobility with some hard heavy sets each day makes the most sense.

Many kids growing up as farm hands or doing a lot of manual labor walk into the gym first day and squat 400 lbs, bench over 200 lbs, deadlift over 400 lbs. They get a mix of every training style -> cardio, muscular endurance, strength, power (hoisting or driving something into the ground or trying to keep something from falling over, whatever), speed (trying to get something done quickly).

And yes I got 2 inches to my chest. Cold. After inflammation pump went down. I measured under armpits and multiple times just trying to get the measurement right. I have a tailor's measurement tape.

12 hours ago, Alawadhi said:

Bro he also said 10% or something will get you to 4.3 million reps in one go. The dude is either a troll or delusional. No one in his right mind will say these things.

No no it's to be trained up to. I mean it's good to train up to and good for overall fitness, and is possible at those % s.

 

12 hours ago, Alawadhi said:

Same offer here. My gym is open for you. Come and show me all of this endurance thing because it won't work.

On 1/5/2022 at 5:53 PM, Tommy J. said:

Challenge for you Dylan.

you said earlier your 1rm was maybe 225 on flat bench.

so on this challenge, since you were honest and said “maybe” on the 225, I’ll give a little buffer.

And instead of challenging you with 135, since that would be 60% of 225, I’ll instead opt for about 120lbs.

if you can post a video of you doing about 30 reps (and the last rep better look super easy!) of 120lbs on the bench, I’m at least willing to give your argument about .00149% merit.

because 120lbs for 5,000 reps is an estimated 1rm of 20,120lbs. And 30 reps divided by 20,120lbs is .00149.

Expand  

LOL. He won't do it period

I did 30 push ups. Well 29 I miscounted. I'm 195 lbs. What rep count at 195 lbs do you two consider good with push ups? @Tommy J. @Alawadhi

12 hours ago, Alawadhi said:

100%. It actually cracked me up to know there are some people believe it is possible to deadlift 1000 LBS 99 times in a day. He surpassed Joe Kinney's 440 LBS for 60 reps everyday squat before breakfast lol.

No no a misunderstanding. The text is a link to a video and it's 3 different lifts totalling altogether to 1000 lbs. Bench + Deadlift + Squat = 1000 lbs. 440 lbs for 60 reps you say? One go? Nice.

"his claim that at a certain point in the set he could feel the hormone testosterone being released into his system and because of this the last rep became easier than the first. What? Let me repeat this again. The last rep of 440 x 60 became easier than the first. "

I had this with the 3.75 mile walk with 80 lbs. Felt refreshed once I got home. Difficult while doing it though. I have had moments where I could sprint or run forever without fatigue. Doing some manual labor work or similar I would put in my all then feel refreshed when I got home or it was over. Once in elementary school during P.E. and another time when hiking after 2 hours of hiking, checking if there was a campsite ahead I took the gear off and ran the trail for 10 minutes straight at the top speed I could without danger. I don't do any cardio really so this is impressive to me. This is how I know the human body is capable of more and that subjective limits are the important ones to surpass.

 

12 hours ago, Climber028 said:

I don't think it's fair to personally judge his strength that's independant of one's knowledge. There a ton of fantastic coaches who are put of shape, in all sports. Application and results are what matter. I've helped people deadlift over 500lbs, and I myself will likely never do that and that doesn't take anything away from my training knowledge. 

Dylan just needs to become a trainer, get a team of people to win gold medals and break world records and then the results will speak for themselves. If these training methods are so effective than it should be really easy to out perform lifters who train the typical way. 

Thank you for contributing this point of view. I intend to train to a high level though. I can learn the most that way too.

 

12 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

He needs merit one way or another BEFORE he is to be taken seriously. He nor the guy who wrote that book he keeps thumbing through never did anything noteworthy or trained anyone noteworthy. So essentially what we are discussing is a training “idea”, since zero merit exists.

I agree with this point of view more even if it doesn't help me here lol.

 

12 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

Or worse. Rhabdo is life threatening, and can kill you. And the training methods he keeps talking about is a fine way to end up with rhabdo or some other sort of overtraining injury or illness

I have only heard of that 1 case and I'm not sure how much of it is true. 135 lbs for 1000 reps of squats right? Starting with a moderate amount makes sense for most people. I'm not sure how untrained the guy was but excess destroyed proteins would, rationally, shake off the muscle the first workout so it's the most difficult for the kidneys. The weak stuff will shake off then the remainder will strengthen and not get destroyed so easily because it's top functional. Just ease in over 1 - 3 months and it's all good.

 

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11 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

Since I believe at this point he is very young, it makes perfect sense to me to assume he’s actually never trained anyone. That, and if he had trained anyone, he’d have certainly mentioned it by now.

Never trained anyone. Tried to but my friend paid some guy about to get into the NFL at our gym to train him. I'm 25 though.

 

 

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Here is most push ups 1 hour. Dude is using some poor form but his core and chest are well-developed. If he used better form in his training the rest of the muscles would be better developed but that would be more painful and difficult. Relying on a bit of stretch helped him get the record.  When he sits up he has decent size and definition in the front that you can see.  I cannot find the non-stop push up record on video but simply doing a body weight workout with full body tension no limpness (forced stretch at bottom and top of reps is good though) using full control and not relying on stretch reflex will get you JACKED assuming you go to muscular failure, fatigue, pain and exhaustion. Assuming adequate frequency and volume. If he simply used more full body tension/ contraction while doing push ups he would be bigger and more shredded, with more strength and full body endurance and strength.

Explosivity also contributes to overall training and progress of course. If one is going for 1000+ push ups I'd go for 60+ reps in 30 seconds as well. Just training in every way. When trying to train in every way it makes sense to know what is possible and what should shoot for, hence the endurance formula.

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 On 1/5/2022 at 8:54 AM, Alawadhi said:

Finally, going back to the original question, do you really want to watch a match like this where Michael Todd (I am his friend but there is no harm in saying my views) is using his bone lock to fatigue his opponent? That is NOT fun to watch. 
 

I think this is better:

 

And in conventional arm wrestling when one arm wrestler decides to keep pushing against the king's move or similar that's his choice. He can readjust if he wants but he wants to perform a contest of endurance which contradicts the reality Tommy was trying to portray where Devon Larratt types were at fault. If people want to try and bleed Devon Larratt in his King Move then they can, but he's trained it more than they've trained closing at that position so they lose that contest of endurance. Can't blame him for not losing. Move back to middle and try to pull and get the advantage some other way -- WRESTLE it out if you can't beat the king's move. You can exhaust someone's side pressure or close with your own king's move for instance. It's a WRESTLE. WREST. Like bending iron man. Like WRESTING IRON like WROUGHT  IRON. That's what it's all about. It's suppose to be like bending and twisting iron.

This udezumou method is pretty interesting but one can work the table and ranges in strict arm wrestling too.

If people train the whole range and with a combination of speed, strength, endurance, time under tension, work capacity, power, static hold, negatives, INVERSE ARM WRESTLE to round it out and keep things wholistic in the body (just think strapping in but one moves in the opposite direction with back of wrists touching); training all that you will see more interesting bouts. Double elimination still the best and you can still put the quarter finals, semi-finals, and finals on stage. Completely agree with that.

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This one is very impressive though. Full range so arms get hit well and he has good development. Going for elbows flared and hands a bit wider would hit the chest and teres minor and major, and serratus on the ribs better.

Explosive full exertion non-stop full speed until grinding them out but still SUBJECTIVELY exerting with all your might every second more more more extreme pain pain exhaustion without letting up until grinding millimeters at a time without a moment to catch breath would help get size and strength up quite a bit. He would only get about 100 reps before the pain is too much and he has to let up a little and get into a groove instead though.

Still quite impressive.

And of course the 1 minute reps going 30 seconds both ways would destroy and  build crazy mass, CONTROL as in IMMOVABLE and strength. There are more specific adaptations for that method but it's pretty wholistic.

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This is a really strange hill you're attempting to die on

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Dylan, in one of your recent posts, you asked me how often I did pushups like that. And the answer is daily during my enlistment. With the most concentrated consecutive days of rigorous calisthenics being boot camp. And not just push-ups. But burpees by the hundred, doing 4 counts. Sit-ups, flutter kicks, scissor kicks, pull-ups, miles in the water swimming, including drills where we wore full battle rattle in the pool. Running non stop, to and from everywhere we went, including back to the barracks from the dental building right after having all 4 wisdom teeth pulled and a numb mouth full of gauze, WHILE having to repeat cadence at the top of my lungs. And yes. I can guarantee you that nearly every bit of that was to the point of nausea. With Many of the guys even going all the way to puking. I never did, but came close several times.

and you want to hear the best part? Millions of others who served have done the same.

And not a single one of us left there as super strength hero’s. Just plain ol getting put through the ringer via basic training. It’s kind of no big deal.

that’s about the closest training I’ve done to what you describe. And other than having some pretty respectable cardio condition and okayish agility when I got done, there was no notable strength received as a result of the training. None. Zero.

 

on your rhabdo sentiments, it’s actually very common in the CrossFit community. And we’ve even had at least 1 member here that I’m aware of get hospitalized with it by just doing a bunch of curls. And he so happens to be a pretty tough sob. So it’s real. Very real.

The push-up videos you keep posting are impressive. But they lack a key element as it pertains to this conversation. Neither of those guys demonstrates any impressive bench ability. One would think if your going to back your claims up (your claim is that thousands of push-ups equal a big 1rm on the bench press) with push-up demonstrations, then those demonstrations should also include their 1rm on the bench press so to clear things up. But the truth is, I bet the guy in either video would more than likely disagree with your overall sentiments here.


also, blaming the boringness in the matches on everyone that loses to the bs kings move is akin to blaming a woman for getting raped. While at the same time attempting to paint the rapist as an innocent victim. That’s practically the exact same logic to what you did there. Kings moves happen for 1 reason, and 1 reason only. And that reason is the guy who initiates it simply has a weaker arm than his opponent.

In hind sight, though, the kings move would go the way of the dodo bird if straps were not allowed.

 

and NO! 30 push-ups ain’t gonna cut it, man. Why would I give your argument merit when you keep attempting to present me with you doing not even a 3rd of the amount of push-ups I’ve done in 1 swoop at about the same body weight?

 

im challenging you to bench press 120lbs on a barbell bench press for 30 consecutive reps, on video, and the last one has to look easy.

why is that so hard to either do, or simply say you can’t do?

literally not 1 person here believes in your training tactics. So when Jermiah asks you why you are attempting to die on this hill, he means you are already losing. Badly.

how you’re not seeing that is fascinating.

Its almost like a comedy skit I saw one time where a guy in handcuffs was in the back of a cop car yelled out “you’ll never catch me, cops! I’ll never surrender!” As the cops sort of stand around outside the cop car looking in at him shaking their heads. Lol

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Gotta learn to choose your battles my man. I consider myself pretty well vetted in debate. And am no stranger to conflict in general. And even I don’t win them all.

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Why don't any of the coc 4 closers just train by doing thousands of reps on the sport or guide, that'd be way easier than using hard grippers all the time. Oh I know why, because it's impossible. 

Nobody is saying push ups can't build strength and size of course they can, just that they aren't the most effective way and they will never get you to a high level 1RM

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Btw, Dylan, we aren’t trolling you. The topic did get left field a bit, but I’m okay with that.

all I and others are saying is that your training methods won’t increase top strength (or a 1rm, rather) to any notable degree for a guy who’s been strength training a while. A new guy, day 1, who’s never trained before in any way is definitely going to get results on all fronts your way. But those methods WILL stop producing more top strength. In a fairly quick time frame, no less. I’d guess inside of 2 years those methods will no longer produce top strength gains for a new guy?… don’t know. Maybe a tad longer than that.

none of us are claiming your methods don’t produce some kind of results. Example, I’m not a CrossFit fan. At all. But do acknowledge that cross fitters are typically in excellent overall shape.

On that note, I would never put money on a CrossFitter winning an arm wrestling match unless he was actually a full fledge arm wrestler and did CrossFit on the side, like Travis Bagent. I would never put money on a dedicated cross fitter beating guys like John Haack in a full power meet. I would never put money on a cross fitter winning a strongman competition, or a grip competition.

the flip side to that coin is I would also never put money on any of the latter guys winning a crossfit comp vs dedicated cross fitters.

so basically what I’m still getting at is strength and endurance really aren’t the same thing. I believe they can go hand in hand to a degree. But you will never be your best at top strength AND top endurance disciplines at the same time. It’s one or the other.

And so to show a little love, I’ll add this disclaimer. I do believe calisthenics and heavy cardio training are arguably much more healthy for a person long term than heavy strength training is. In fact, I’ll add this too. The day my strength goals are accomplished, I fully intend to at some point get back into more cardio focused shape, and aim to trim back down to about 200lbs bw. Because I’m not trying to die young behind some middle of the road (I say “middle of the road” because powerlifting is INSANELY competitive these days) lifts.

so it really boils down to which discipline you prefer, and what your willing to sacrifice in pursuing your goals physically. And my stance at this point in my life is more willing to sacrifice overall health pursuing power vs being healthy, fast, agile, and sacrificing power.

and it’s proven tougher for me than any endurance training I’ve ever done. I guess you could say I’m just a hard gainer when it comes to overall power. And it’s super easy for me at any moment to go back to a lighter weight and get back into more what resembles “fighting” shape.

I don’t know. Some posts back I felt like I was beating a dead horse. So I guess at this point I’m just rambling the same message, but with different wording. 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

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On 1/7/2022 at 5:51 AM, Tommy J. said:

And not a single one of us left there as super strength hero’s. Just plain ol getting put through the ringer via basic training. It’s kind of no big deal

What were your starting lift numbers?

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2 hours ago, Dylan said:

What were your starting lift numbers?

I’m assuming you’re asking my lifts before boot camp?

if so the only actual barbell lifts I did were upper body stuff that mostly was wanna be bodybuilder lifts. Like most that age I guess. So for squat and DL I have no clue.

300 was sort of my base 1rm bench for a lot of years before I started focusing on it a bit. Many times throughout my 20’s I got 295-305 for a redline single. Body weight ranging from 170 to 195ish throughout my service years. served 8 years total, including my reserve time. From 2005-2013. Never benched more than 305 throughout that entire enlistment. And had a few times I missed 300-305, and could barely squeeze out a 295 single. I did add some size during the enlistment. And I think that was due to the slight added muscle in my legs from all the running bogged down with gear and also seemingly endless swimming through that 8 years. I hovered at that weight for probably another year after getting out, and practically did nothing all through about 2014-2018 but ride motorcycles and be places I probably shouldn’t have been. And with people I probably shouldn’t have been hanging out with. …I guess looking to fill that deployment void with something dangerous you know?

anyways my pull-up strength did go up in boot camp. From about 11 or so pull-ups to low 20’s before I ran out of steam. Push-ups went from maybe 50-60 to over 100. My plank time went up a ton. To well into the 2-3 minute mark, since we would sort of get punished and held in that position all the time daily. If I was ever allowed to actually run at my own pace, I could get a little further, faster, and use less energy than those formation runs where we all had to yell back cadence and move only as fast as the slowest guy. My mile and a half run time (which was our tested distance for PRT’s) went from 11:58 to 10:00 and some change. And I could smoke a 500m swim in under 9 minutes on my last swim test in boot camp. Note that that was in trunks only and no gear/boots/flak. I think our slowest guy in the division swam about a 9:40. And he couldn’t even swim his first day of boot camp! So we had some RDC’s that were strong in the water, which in turn made us strong in the water.

so I guess looking back, I’ll admit that I was in the best overall shape of my life right after boot camp. Health wise and endurance wise. Also was a little sharper then mentally I think. Or I just thought less before I made a move…Whichever you’d like to call it. I had no real world responsibilities other than a cell phone bill and insurance for my truck. I lived on base, and had no bills. And all the stuff I owned other than what was required for my military stuff stayed back home with my parents. All those factors combined I would say made me in the best shape of my life.

I did get stronger/harder in a lot of ways doing military readiness style training. 1 example of that being a 240b feeling like it was heavy enough that just the pressure on my neck and trap from the sling made me feel like I was gonna pass out from it cutting off circulation, to not even needing the sling if I was moving less than a half mile or so on foot. Which weighed 27lbs by itself with no load out and no extra barrel. Mind you, that’s on TOP of the MTV (with plates), a Kevlar helmet, full field gear, camel back full of water, etc. which added up to roughly 300lbs total between myself, my gear, and my weapon. And that’s not including my Allison pack that my B gunner had to carry. So I think it’s fair to assume that if I was only* toting the weapon I could go a mile or more with no sling. …but I’d definitely need to guzzle some water afterward when I got there! Lol! And mind you.. that was field training.. so we’re talking mud, sand, gravel, foliage, you name it.

and I’ll repeat the best part.. millions of others have done the same. minus the added challenge of toting a crew serve. Not everybody could be a crew serve gunner. It was sort of looked at as a brute position. That was stressful at times because I still had to keep up with battalion movement. And I was the smallest/lightest 240b gunner in alpha company in my battalion. The rest of them were heavier and had more muscle. But even then, there may have been close to 100,000 other crew serve gunners over the years throughout all combat branches that could do exactly what I did, or better, and likely even at a lighter bw.

I’m getting long winded here, and i apologize… I suppose I could have just said my bench didn’t even go up 10lbs. But it was fun to reminisce. And yeah, I miss it. Those were some of the best “worst” days of my life. Because I was getting paid to do every bit of it.

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Thought I’d give you a break and end that post there.

continued,

if you asked me when I got out of boot camp if I was stronger than before enlisting, my answer would have been a simple “oh hell yeah!”

but it would have been sort of biased. since I could have only answered relative to what I had done at that point in my life.

 

it really wasn’t until 2011- 2013 (the end of my reserve time) that I got into grip and competitive arm wrestling. And it wasn’t until about 2018 I got a wild hair and decided I had some barbell goals.

now…. Is it possible I could have maintained all the endurance and also pursued strength at the same time and got stronger? Of course it is. But what’s of most note here is that I never got stronger statically until i started doing heavy static movements.

And I’m to the point now that I believe/think I “know” that if I tried to get back into that same shape, WHILE I continue heavy static movements, my 1rm barbell strength will no doubt go down. Or, I’d have to be in another position to where I could get paid to do it all day long so I could have enough free time to ensure I could also keep getting stronger statically.

what that means now is the best bang for my buck (if I want to keep getting my 1rm up!) is to be spent going as heavy as I safely can, and then spending as much extra free time as I can trying to recover from it. Because I am unwilling to experiment much further with drugs just so I can chase both strength and endurance. And am also unwilling to quit my day job in pursuit of it.

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On 1/7/2022 at 5:51 AM, Tommy J. said:

on your rhabdo sentiments, it’s actually very common in the CrossFit community. And we’ve even had at least 1 member here that I’m aware of get hospitalized with it by just doing a bunch of curls. And he so happens to be a pretty tough sob. So it’s real. Very real.

Who? How the hell does he know he had kidney issues? I mean I've done endurance stuff with little training and had my kidneys hurt so I understand, but who the hell got rhabdo from curls? Only thing I can imagine are 22 inch arms or something and curling up to 10% of the protein off of them.

Training the organs is a good topic though, I've had organ pain in all hard workouts and exertions I'd say. Kidneys, heart, lungs, brain even, always something. Once getting into something more like what you went through in bootcamp that's when organs really have to get stronger. Besides that though heavy weights for high reps will hit the organs pretty hard too, like the example I mention of a guy doing 135 lb squats for 1000 reps one morning; not all at once but still he went to the hospital and I have no clue what was actually the problem or whether he really needed to go to the hospital but his kidneys hurt at least lol.

 

On 1/7/2022 at 5:51 AM, Tommy J. said:

The push-up videos you keep posting are impressive. But they lack a key element as it pertains to this conversation. Neither of those guys demonstrates any impressive bench ability. One would think if your going to back your claims up (your claim is that thousands of push-ups equal a big 1rm on the bench press) with push-up demonstrations, then those demonstrations should also include their 1rm on the bench press so to clear things up. But the truth is, I bet the guy in either video would more than likely disagree with your overall sentiments here.

That's true, I need the bench numbers. I know you say that through your own experience that the cardio, calisthenics training didn't result in a great amount of strength but you state later on you benched 300 lbs which is quite good. I need a specific example of people doing push ups in a way that gets results for bench though and that involves volume and intensity, and whether they do it everyday, which would require a lot of time to find.

To note, doing the Evil Russian Program twice in a row there were days I needed to do push ups every 15, 30, 45, and 60 minutes and even after an hour break as the program went on, I couldn't do more than 1 push up, or any push ups, multiple times each day as the program went on and on. That's the sort of method I'm looking for in people's training.

So focusing on one body part and hitting it that often that hard will most definitely result in growth. Strength, I don't know from experience, I don't go to the gym or have a barbell. I don't do much push motions, haven't had much of a routine going ever, doing very little sometimes doing a workout here and there each month. I can probably bench 235 lbs though if I tested it. Thinking about a weighted push up I did for 8 reps with more in the tank with a weight that amounted to 195 lbs or 205 lbs on the bench, and the daily 1 set of push ups I've been doing for a month most of those days with an additional 30 lbs at 195 lbs body weight, I can probably bench 235 lbs right now.

45 minutes in the gym can get huge strength gains though so there is a good reason to lift heavy no matter what's true here, as you mention later in your message.

 

On 1/7/2022 at 5:51 AM, Tommy J. said:

also, blaming the boringness in the matches on everyone that loses to the bs kings move is akin to blaming a woman for getting raped. While at the same time attempting to paint the rapist as an innocent victim. That’s practically the exact same logic to what you did there. Kings moves happen for 1 reason, and 1 reason only. And that reason is the guy who initiates it simply has a weaker arm than his opponent.

That's BS. People train the king's move every time they do a curl and a chin up. Who the hell trains the awkward position used to close someone out? The closest it looks like is a part of a wide arm elbows down push up in fact.

 

On 1/7/2022 at 5:51 AM, Tommy J. said:

im challenging you to bench press 120lbs on a barbell bench press for 30 consecutive reps, on video, and the last one has to look easy.

why is that so hard to either do, or simply say you can’t do?

It's easy but I don't own a barbell and I don't think I have the plates for dumbbells either.  30 push ups at 195 lbs BW will do. I can take the L for the convo though.

 

On 1/7/2022 at 5:51 AM, Tommy J. said:

literally not 1 person here believes in your training tactics. So when Jermiah asks you why you are attempting to die on this hill, he means you are already losing. Badly.

how you’re not seeing that is fascinating.

I don't gain anything by convincing people of stuff online.

 

On 1/7/2022 at 6:16 AM, Climber028 said:

Why don't any of the coc 4 closers just train by doing thousands of reps on the sport or guide, that'd be way easier than using hard grippers all the time. Oh I know why, because it's impossible. 

Well they should do that whether they're training with heavy grippers or not.

If you think it's easy grab your guide and close it 2000 times. You can use a guide in one hand, sport in another, and switch hands every # of reps or however you wish to do it. Use time under tension so try and keep the speed teh same whether closing or opening the hand. Just consistent and constant. No change in rhythm or tempo as best you can, just keep it steady. Don't take a break between reps or stop at the close or open, keep constant tension and just keep it moving without trying to catch a break.

It will be impossible to do it this way and you will take tiny 1 - 5 second breaks as often as you can. Now do these 2000 reps 5x a day for a month. You can do a heavy set before each 2000 rep set and spend however much time between each 2000 rep set. Start with the left hand or non-dominant hand.

Second month, Start a heavy 5 sets a day AMRAP with ramping sets up to something you can do at least 20 times, and failed reps being held and squeezed until your guts and heart and hands are bleeding; breathing through it is acceptable. If you've ever done heavy 20 rep breathing squats then it should be like that. The reps should be slow and even, 2 - 8 second close and open. And do 200 speed reps with the sport/ guide after each set without fully opening it to keep tension in the hand; when the reps hurt and your hand is about to explode GRIND IT don't OPEN THE HAND just grind it. After the full 5 sets and speed reps for the day, AMRAP with a Trainer or similar. Start with the left hand or non-dominant hand.

I am certain I have just described a workout anyone can (attempt to) do, and it is more difficult than whatever gripper workout you can find or have done. If you don't think it would help you then at least know that it is difficult. I think it's a great methodology though for overall fitness and strength too.

 

20 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

I do believe calisthenics and heavy cardio training are arguably much more healthy for a person long term than heavy strength training is. In fact, I’ll add this too. The day my strength goals are accomplished, I fully intend to at some point get back into more cardio focused shape, and aim to trim back down to about 200lbs bw. Because I’m not trying to die young behind some middle of the road (I say “middle of the road” because powerlifting is INSANELY competitive these days) lifts.

Nah I think strength training is great for health and longevity lol. Decent conditioning or in other words some overall fitness requires strength for one to actually be healthy and live long whatever the hell happens (including disease, car accidents, whatever). High strength requires some conditioning for health and longevity too though. PEDs tend to make for poor health though.

 

1 hour ago, Tommy J. said:

Never benched more than 305 throughout that entire enlistment. And had a few times I missed 300-305, and could barely squeeze out a 295 single.

I don't know what you were doing before enlistment but that is very good. That it stuck around 300 lbs is interesting but I am guessing that you were doing a lot of pushing and arm stuff before enlisting so that that part of enlistment wasn't too intense for you.

All I'm saying is that if one is being driven to do push ups as hard as they had you running, rucking and swimming, your bench would have gone up to 400 lbs. Like, switch the push ups and burpee frequency and time with running, swimming, rucking time and that's hours every day of push ups right?

 

57 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

what that means now is the best bang for my buck (if I want to keep getting my 1rm up!) is to be spent going as heavy as I safely can, and then spending as much extra free time as I can trying to recover from it.

Static strength is a good way of putting it. Slow and static strength. For time efficiency I agree heavy weights or heavy movements are most efficient. That's their greatest appeal I'd say. I don't suggest doing drugs I'm anti-PEDs in fact.

I like heavy movements for the efficiency like you say, and the immediate feeling of strength, and I'm not trying to interfere with your job.

Whether push ups can get a person a 400 lb bench, or whether BW squats can get someone a 600 lb squat, is a pretty big deal for everyone though. It means 1 thing if true: Subjective Intensity pretty much drives growth and progress; it's accurate and reliable at least. Not to say someone screaming and howling and crying after they workout means it's intense haha. People can be dramatic man.

But I think we would agree looking at the same workout same person doing it, what results they are and aren't going to get.

 

On 1/7/2022 at 5:51 AM, Tommy J. said:

burpees by the hundred, doing 4 counts. Sit-ups, flutter kicks, scissor kicks, pull-ups, miles in the water swimming, including drills where we wore full battle rattle in the pool. Running non stop, to and from everywhere we went

For 400 total reps assuming full range or nearly so with a gap between every 4 reps for 1 "set", multiple sets every day (4? 8?) and with a jump or squat or however you guys did burpees, I would guess the person can bench at least 275 lbs for a 185 lb person. If it was all in one go followed by a set of 400 squats, back to push ups, all for a total of 1600 push ups and 1600 squats with great range, I would assume STRONG. 350 lb bench, 550 lb squat or close to it. 185 lb person. If he made it look easy with 0 body tension and had real low musculature I would assume he did these movements for 20 years and progressed very very slowly to the point he's skilled and efficient but lacking power, so I would assume he benches 240 lbs, squats 300 lbs, wouldn't bet money on much more unless I was feeling lucky.

Edited by Dylan
changed some stuff up
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The guy that got Rhabdo that’s a member here is named Mike Rinderle. We call him Rhindo.

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And no, the kings move is what’s BS. Nobody actually trains it specifically either. I’ve seen a dozen of MMT’s circuit training videos and also have trained directly with him at his house. Even dropped a brand new Harley I had just bought in his front yard once actually! lol!

Michael specifically has a bone lock in his elbow that physically won’t allow him to straighten his arm. Combine that with the fact that his move also relies on a strap, and viola. Now we’re not even talking strength OR endurance. We are talking a bone lock that once he’s in position, he could damn near nap there with almost zero taxing of his bicep what so ever.

i like the guy but damn. Who really wants to watch him pull?

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Michael does posses enough strength that not a single guy at practice the day I was there was even remotely able to force him into anything that even resembles a kings move. And that’s including Brian Sitton, and Bruce Jones there that day.

so he is strong. But when it comes to him pulling elites? He really should retire instead. The strength just isn’t there on that level and I think people are fed up with the thought of paying to see any more of his matches.

like, I’ll watch the Genadi match because Genadi is an intense puller to watch that doesn’t play any games. But I won’t pay to see it live because I already know what MMT is gonna do. So I’ll be catching that one for free on YouTube instead the next day.

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I’ll also add that I believe who ever loses that match will likely retire. Or at least completely lose luster. The loser of that match is gonna end up like Matt mask after Ron bath and like 4 other guys ate his lunch at his last tournament in the USA.

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And the only way I’ll believe a guy can just do push-ups to a 400lb bench without actually barbell benching is if the guy weighs 350+ and can get a crap ton of push-ups.

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27 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

We are talking a bone lock that once he’s in position, he could damn near nap there with almost zero taxing of his bicep what so ever.

I don't know about that I've seen elbows dislocated so it's not foolproof at all. I've seen people lose strength and have to give the king's move up though, don't know if you're saying he has some special physiology but it's just really tight muscle. Every curl you do, especially if you're using a strict curl piece of equipment, or a planche or a pseudo-planche will use the king's move muscles.

 

24 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

Michael does posses enough strength that not a single guy at practice the day I was there was even remotely able to force him into anything that even resembles a kings move. And that’s including Brian Sitton, and Bruce Jones there that day.

 

33 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

We are talking a bone lock that once he’s in position, he could damn near nap there with almost zero taxing of his bicep what so ever.

Nah I don't believe this. A lot of anti-dislocation muscles come into play and some people train this up just out of anxiety so they can throw punches, put in their max effort, and so on. Some really go hard on not dislocating their elbow. My father has the king's move power. Can hold a 230 lb dude just off the table. It's all strength. He has wiry strength and whips around a lot. It's just the ballistic strength and toughness man. When you whip your joints with your movements a lot of strength is built because one puts in their 100% to not dislocate their joints lol.

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