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My thoughts on the arm wrestling scene these days


Tommy J.

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1 minute ago, Lennix said:

I could tell you what I think work from what I've read and from my own experience. But, Tommy has already tried and you don't really seem to be taking anything outside of what you already "know" is the truth into consideration. So I'll pass.

So you won't perform the squat because of your interpretation of a social and mental interaction?

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@Lennix Quite ironically I'm not sure what you're taking into consideration since Tommy never claimed to train the way I said gets results, nor can you or Tommy really explain Mike Tyson's routine to me.

Since your profile picture is of you lifting I assume you go to the gym and read up on programs, training methodologies, and whatever else.  Madcow, Stronglifts, Starting Strength, Bulgarian Method, Supersets, Giant sets, burnout sets, Pyramid training, Inverse pyramid, time under tension, tempo, active rest days, body split, isometric, form, hypertrophy, hyperplasia, volume, absolute and relative intensity, compound, isolated, push pull vertical horizontal legs; I'm sure you're familiar with all of these terms and more.

How much of these do you take into consideration designing your program? How often do you start blaming genetics for things, considering it a "major advantage or disadvantage"? How much time in the gym is actually time under tension versus between sets or setting up your repetitions? How much of each exercise is at its most difficult position when you work out? How many days of the week do you workout?

Most importantly, how many times do you dig into people's F program and try to figure out what's going right or wrong? Pretty sure it boils down to what people are actually doing versus vague statements, right? The only program you've seen this entire thread is Mike Tyson's (which apparently isn't that 'daily' but who knows). Then what is there to consider? Tommy never said he worked to his limit doing body weight, getting adequate grind or other methods of intensity, on a daily basis despite my insistence on it for progress so he probably didn't do that or something similar to it. A lot of people in the gym also workout and get nowhere while going at least 3x a week for years. If you know anything about programming adn training you know that the last few reps of a set do the most work, that slowing it down makes it much more difficult, that time under tension is every body builder's methodology, yet fail to consider much of anything here ironically.

And why do you believe what people say online? Shouldn't you have an ounce of common sense? Shouldn't you have an actual direct experience you can use to learn from and reference when trying to figure shit out?

You've taken next to nothing into consideration.

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I started lifting in 1979 and am still learning and I learned a long time ago to keep an open mind.   

One BIG thing few seem to get though is EVERYONE will tap out at some point for da GAINZ.  Father Time is UNDEFEATED!  And, it will come sooner than later. That means you won't be able to lift as much, might be crippled in some fashion too due to injurie(s), and will lose muscle mass, and for many you'll fool yourself with your fat gut you get that you need this "size" to keep making those GAINZ or keep your strength.

GENETICS are KING, period. 

EGO is a big time enemy as well and will result in setbacks more than da GAINZ if you let it rule you.  

 

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And with my post we'll take it back to Tommy's original topic discussion of "My thoughts on the arm wrestling scene these days"

Training methods debates can degrade into like talking religion or politics. 

Thanks everyone.

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16 hours ago, Dylan said:

My best bench is 205 lbs in high school. I don't know what it is right now but maybe it's 225 lbs.

My best 40m run is unknown but probably 7 seconds no clue. I'm 195 lbs.

Most push ups I've done is 54.

I have not knocked anyone out.

I do not know how fast a formation run is but I've walked 3.75 miles with 80 lbs on with a few steep hills involved in 55 minutes.

My best strict OHP was 125 lbs and I can probably do 135 lbs right now.

But I'm right. 

Dylan, thanks for being honest. That is appreciated. But saying you are right and know everything bla bla bla is absolute nonsense especially when you can't back it up. How old are you? If you are young that might explain your belief in this Kung Flu style training. Don't worry I used to be like that. I wanted to believe in workouts that will give me magical powers or something. But reality is different, yet simple. 

I don't like to speak on Tommy's behalf but I will. I am sure he knows that there is a little of endurance in strength and strength in endurance. But what he is saying is totally right. What you are trying to explain to total Kung Fu BS, sorry no offence buddy. You even mentioned here that at 50% of my max weight I should be able to rep it for almost 5000 times. Comon dude! Also forget these mathematical equations. No one will go to 400 pounds bench press natty with push ups alone unless he has a FREAK genetic.

To cut it short, if you want to be stronger follow what Tommy says (btw well done Tommy on the 255 pounds strict press that is super strong!) and stop saying that you are right. If you are, then prove it using your numbers and gain. You can be stronger using your Kung Fu method but that is newbies gains and up until you can't lift heavy, sorry but you can't argue with someone who worked harder, did everything, listen and learn from everyone and got results. 

Maybe you will reply back with your research and mathematical equations or something, but don't until you show me your numbers drastically going up in percentage to where you were. I am not saying be stronger than me or Tommy. But show us your progress percentage and if you can't, then what you are doing is wrong. I have done lots of push ups, pull ups and running back in the days. Like 500 to 1000 push up every other day. Dude it will make you fit but not that strong like using weights and adding weight yourself. I also know what I am talking about. I am strong myself and met world strongest people (whom I have better grip than most). We are here to help you buddy. Don't let me regret writing all of this by telling me that you are always right (I get that from trolls on FB, e-mails and IG). Then I would wish I followed Lennix's way.

 

Finally, going back to the original question, do you really want to watch a match like this where Michael Todd (I am his friend but there is no harm in saying my views) is using his bone lock to fatigue his opponent? That is NOT fun to watch. 
 

 

Well done to Cadorette for the win anyway! I prefer this type of matches 😎

 

 

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13 hours ago, Lennix said:

All I'm saying is, sometimes, its good to be a bit humble and accept that you perhaps don't know everything.

I struggle with this myself at times. Best advice so far tho

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To add hopefully my final thoughts on the training regimes debate, I think Dylan does prove he has some fight in him. If its applied to actual training I suspect that at some point he will be strong. Although it’s going to definitely be some trail and error for him. Much like with anyone who is determined. I hope he gets there.

 

and Bill mentions something im stuck on as well. I still have this belief at the moment I that as my gut gets smaller then so does/do my lifts. Deep down I know this is bs. But I keep thinking I need to eat more because It seems so easy. So I guess that’s me avoiding a more scientific approach. Personally, I’d love to be more like Haack. That guy just keeps getting stronger without really getting bigger. It’s insane. He’s like the golden boy case of a situation where you can still get stronger without getting bigger. For nearly all of us, it’s the opposite.

 

@Alawadhi I’d definitely prefer the Vitaly and Levan match. Hands down.

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And thanks for the kind words on the press, Bader. The 255 was and is one of my proudest pressing moments I’ve ever had. Because I wasn’t even specifically training it at the time. I do want to clear up some misspeak I had earlier in the thread. I looked back at my log and the 255 was sitting, not standing. Apologies for misspeaking on that. ..at least I didn’t misspeak on the no leg drive part. Lol 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

sitting does make an overhead press slightly easier tho. Due to not having to stabilize nearly as much. So I guess I can’t talk tough on that one.

they say that without even training overhead press, your overhead press will stay roughly within 60% of your flat bench numbers. Some higher, some lower. I’m assuming that percentage estimate is standing tho. But for me it’s slightly higher than 60%, especially sitting. 
And for some guys, the OH press surpasses that 60% rule of thumb. Specifically guys who train it, and maybe even skip flat bench all together. Like strongmen, etc. I would expect those guys ratios of oh press to flat bench is all out of whack. Stephen Anderson is a guy that I know has a better ratio OH press to bench. I think he’s done 400+ overhead, and I’m not sure if he’s done 400+ flat bench.

jedder is another one. I think he’s done 260’ish overhead on the barbell?.. and also come close to a 400 bench.

but the general rule of thumb is usually not less than 60% of your flat bench.

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5 hours ago, Alawadhi said:

But saying you are right and know everything bla bla bla is absolute nonsense especially when you can't back it up.

Mike Tyson. As for muscle mass I got 2 inches in a month just from the subjective intensity and time under tension. There are different ways of doing a repetition such as "as slow as possible", grind involving antagonist muscles as I've said, extreme speed where you exert force without knowing if it's doing something like you would in weight lifting, and a combination of blind exertion while going so slow you don't know if your strength will suddenly give out whilst using antagonist muscles. It relies on the individual or someone that knows what to look for checking what you're doing; whether it's painful and fatiguing also does it.

 

5 hours ago, Alawadhi said:

You even mentioned here that at 50% of my max weight I should be able to rep it for almost 5000 times

In terms of what's beneficial to train for yes. It's not unrealistic unless you consider "not likely to happen" unrealistic. It's unrealistic that people will work out for more than a month as well. Don't misrepresent any of what I'm saying either: It's clearly possible to do a body weight movement over 10, 000 times and I can bet you no one you ever meet is willing to train and go through that. No one you meet is willing to train until they can do 20, 000 push ups in one go either. It's just a matter of what people are willing to do. The principle to consider is that one should have a high endurance base at each 10% interval down from 100% because it's a foundation. You and others who are now strong admit they have a relatively strong endurance base.

 

5 hours ago, Alawadhi said:

stop saying that you are right.

See this isn't whether I'm right or wrong for you or others. It's about ego. It's about emotions. But I AM right. You can lift heavy or go body weight. You can get a workout just standing and flexing all of your muscles at once. You can workout using antagonistic muscles to create resistance for your agonist muscles while moving your body. The fact is people would rather not do that though.

If I asked you to stand up and contract every muscle in your body 100% you would quickly become fatigued and would notice you're putting in less effort within 12 seconds. If you put in your all it can be 6 seconds or less. How would that not be a workout if it's difficulty is similar to heavy weights? The more you put in the more you focus on the weaker muscles because they're the weak link -- how could one not fill out from this? Then adding a little resistance, the result would be good if done with enough sets, to failure, enough days of the week for enough months.

 

5 hours ago, Alawadhi said:

you can't argue with someone who worked harder, did everything, listen and learn from everyone and got results. 

You act like reality is small. Two different things can work at the same time. The only one that can benefit from what I'm saying is others but go ahead and believe what you want. I have learned nothing so far except for someone's personal experiences and I never said lifting heavy doesn't work.

 

5 hours ago, Alawadhi said:

I have done lots of push ups, pull ups and running back in the days. Like 500 to 1000 push up every other day. Dude it will make you fit but not that strong like using weights and adding weight yourself.

You have to consider what your rep max is and reach your rep max or reach muscular failure from fatigue and get back to it as soon as you can do 1 more rep to assure growth. Time under tension matters more so slowing it down and GRINDING out the reps helps quite a bit, getting full range of motion which makes it feel like a soft "reset" every rep. If you are plateauing on something just throw in body weight after lifting heavy and go to muscular failure followed by drop sets such as knee push ups or negative pull ups until you aren't doing much there then with the least rest possible go for a second baby set reaching failure again.

This is usually best for muscle mass though. For strength neural drive is very important, energy is important, so trying to actively get your strength back and get more reps in by pulling yourself together and just all in all drawing blood from stone will get you strength gains. Body weight work can mirror barbell work if you do it right.

Working out every day and multiple times a day will massively increase muscle size. I did the Evil Russian push up program because I believed in the methodology and was looking for programs that were along my train of thought yet missing in the forums and youtube videos I was looking at 4 years ago -- I would see "300 push ups every day for 30 days!" and they'd give shit half reps or just go through the motion and barely look like they were trying on their last set for the day because they broke it up into sets of 10 and took 10 hours to do it or some crap. Nowadays I can find someone adding an inch to their calves up to 18 inch total doing 256 calf raises for 100 days because they use time under tension, slow it down and get a good stretch getting a good pump due to the strenuous nature of the method.

I was thinking "okay I need a high frequency every hour type program and to hit max muscle fatigue" because I could feel how difficult going to the point of pain and fatigue is and how simple it must be to make progress yet the explanation why people DON'T was RIGHT THERE. The second it's explosively painful and nausea inducing people lock up and back off. Their heart is not in it.

Every time I made progress it was with difficulty. Struggle. I was thinking I could prove to myself that THAT is what matters and decided to go with the classic push ups. I decided that finding that type of program for push ups would be simple, and that I would prove to myself that the key measure is PAIN AND FATIGUE and that I could add at least .75 inches in a month. .75 inches would mean it works and I could always go even harder for more progress. But I got 2 inches on my chest and really lost the will by the last week so that's basically 2 inches in 3 weeks with some anxious constant will to start doing more push ups that wasn't enough in the last week to be consistent at all skipping half the days and most the workouts for the days I did.

That's what works. If you're anxious about your training because of its difficulty and the will and focus you are about to bring, and do it anyway, you will progress a shit ton. Might be more muscle gain than strength depending on "where your heart is". I do not know how you trained when doing high reps but how you do them matters for progress.

 

6 hours ago, Alawadhi said:

do you really want to watch a match like this where Michael Todd (I am his friend but there is no harm in saying my views) is using his bone lock to fatigue his opponent?

Not a fan of straps but the issue is most people don't have the strength to close against it. Most of it is a muscle lock. The closer could bring serious torque but it requires strength in that form. The position to close is a bit awkward but it boils down to strength training that position just like they strength train the king's move. I have not seen people work out that position much when I see arm wrestling training videos. I see from side to close stuff but it's pretty minimalist.

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@Alawadhi The formula is good. Agility based stuff complicates things but people can do 10k push ups in a row and that was a ~200 lb top heavy man. Push ups are about 70% BW at the top, 75% at the bottom. You can get endurance and cardio gains from heavy weight lifting too you just have to use less rest and go for a crap ton of volume until "gassing out" is the issue over something else. The physiological perceptions are what's real here.

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2 hours ago, Dylan said:

@Alawadhi The formula is good. Agility based stuff complicates things but people can do 10k push ups in a row and that was a ~200 lb top heavy man. Push ups are about 70% BW at the top, 75% at the bottom. You can get endurance and cardio gains from heavy weight lifting too you just have to use less rest and go for a crap ton of volume until "gassing out" is the issue over something else. The physiological perceptions are what's real here.

Dude… for crying out loud..

I think each and every one of us reading this thread has been holding back from saying something along these lines.. and I apologize I’m the one to have to put this out there.

if you were right, your lifts would be much stronger than where they are.

I do apologize for tossing that jab.. but no amount of broadband you occupy here will be worth your time until you have some lifts to back up the hype.

 

and it is obvious that even you don’t train the way you suggest. Do you have any idea how long just a 10x10 bench workout takes at about 60%?
it takes near an hour if you actually want to finish all 10 reps on your last 3 or so sets. 6-8 minute breaks between sets.

and if you can move through a 10x10 faster than about 35 minutes at 60%, then you’re lying about your 1rm, or you’re on some pretty substantial PEDs. 
 

so no. No one is doing 5,000 reps at 50%. Ever. It will never happen.

Edited by Tommy J.
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In fact, I’d be impressed if someone could even ghost bench 5,000 reps, using only the weight of their arms.

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You know what, you are right. You win. Your workout is paramount. And there is no better way to get stronger. You have figured it out.

Hopefully the US military, the NFL,  every strength coach out there who receives any salary what so ever, and every Olympian will model training people the way you say. Because it sounds like we are about to see super soldiers, and athletes like we’ve never seen before. And the only reason we haven’t yet is because people are idiots. And won’t listen.

It’s been a great big secret all along.

the world is saved.

Edited by Tommy J.
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Oh… and here’s what my 1rm looks like after doing 5,000 reps with 60%
 

5E6F037A-99D9-4818-A7B6-C9BC408450AB.thumb.png.5044220cc84ba4f722a9af76a42af0e9.png
 

 

 

my new 1rm estimate should be roughly 38,731lbs.

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2 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

.

they say that without even training overhead press, your overhead press will stay roughly within 60% of your flat bench numbers. Some higher, some lower. I’m assuming that percentage estimate is standing tho. But for me it’s slightly higher than 60%, especially sitting. 
And for some guys, the OH press surpasses that 60% rule of thumb. Specifically guys who train it, and maybe even skip flat bench all together. Like strongmen, etc. I would expect those guys ratios of oh press to flat bench is all out of whack. Stephen Anderson is a guy that I know has a better ratio OH press to bench. I think he’s done 400+ overhead, and I’m not sure if he’s done 400+ flat bench.

jedder is another one. I think he’s done 260’ish overhead on the barbell?.. and also come close to a 400 bench.

but the general rule of thumb is usually not less than 60% of your flat bench.

I think I'm an outlier for this.  For a few years @Wayne and myself would workout together 3-5 time a week. He's 5-8 about 200 and I was 6-3 around 232 at the time of this. 

His bench max was around 405 and mine was just under 300 but on standing push press I was within striking distance of him. I could do 260 and I believe he was 5-10 over me. 

Now mind you we did almost the exact same workouts together for years! We just always thought that was interesting. 

I wonder if there's a correlation with being good at push press and being tall?

anyway, you guys can continue. I've been enjoying this thread a bunch. 🍿

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1 minute ago, stranger said:

I think I'm an outlier for this.  For a few years @Wayne and myself would workout together 3-5 time a week. He's 5-8 about 200 and I was 6-3 around 232 at the time of this. 

His bench max was around 405 and mine was just under 300 but on standing push press I was within striking distance of him. I could do 260 and I believe he was 5-10 over me. 

Now mind you we did almost the exact same workouts together for years! We just always thought that was interesting. 

I wonder if there's a correlation with being good at push press and being tall?

anyway, you guys can continue. I've been enjoying this thread a bunch. 🍿

Some guys are like that. That’s an excellent press btw! I’m jelly of that ratio!

and I agree. The thread is sort of entertaining. @Wannagrip please don’t shut it down?.. I sort of like the Dylan guy. And I don’t think anyone is really mad at him. 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

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Fwiw @Dylan you are welcome to train with me whenever. But I’m gonna give you a hard time when you get to about rep 17-18 at 60% and burnout. 😬

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Challenge for you Dylan.

you said earlier your 1rm was maybe 225 on flat bench.

so on this challenge, since you were honest and said “maybe” on the 225, I’ll give a little buffer.

And instead of challenging you with 135, since that would be 60% of 225, I’ll instead opt for about 120lbs.

if you can post a video of you doing about 30 reps (and the last rep better look super easy!) of 120lbs on the bench, I’m at least willing to give your argument about .00149% merit.

because 120lbs for 5,000 reps is an estimated 1rm of 20,120lbs. And 30 reps divided by 20,120lbs is .00149.

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4 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

if you were right, your lifts would be much stronger than where they are.

I have poor consistency.

 

4 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

Do you have any idea how long just a 10x10 bench workout takes at about 60%?
it takes near an hour if you actually want to finish all 10 reps on your last 3 or so sets. 6-8 minute breaks between sets.

Well from what I've read it takes close to a decade to reach the point where one can do thousands of push ups so I imagine it's similar at any %. I've done 10x10 with 45% for deadlift and the cold sweat is real. I used low rest times but I lowered the weight from 60% so I could use 30 - 60s rest times. My max was 300 lbs then and my grip was shit.

 

Steve Justa wrote a book called Rock, Iron, Steel of which he wrote a chapter recounting his job in a steel forge. He worked with a guy that had to pick up and drop 200 lb pieces of forged steel to get the warm slag off of I think tubes or something. He apparently looked about 140 lbs but he would do this for hours and hours 5 days a week. One day he missed a day and Steve had to take over. The book before this point talks about all his intense workouts and physically demanding job on a farm tossing up 90 lb hay bales with a pitch fork; though most of it was driving passenger. He had done intense and strength-endurance workouts many times before this and while working at the farm.

He was absolutely blasted after an hour. The heat of the forge is not too far and you have to pick up and drop them a few times usually to get the slag off. With the time it took him to get 1 done another was already there. After that he went a summer on the farm job with 100 lbs of chains on him to train up.

 

4 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

In fact, I’d be impressed if someone could even ghost bench 5,000 reps, using only the weight of their arms.

I've done 1000 and it was starting to get strenuous. I imagine 5000 would be difficult.

 

4 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

You know what, you are right. You win. Your workout is paramount. And there is no better way to get stronger. You have figured it out.

Well the push ups are just an example it's a single point being made. A person can get a great endurance workout by lifting heavy with very little rest for a long time. For example. 1000 lbs in 3 reps for 33 rounds in 1 hour.

 

3 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

Challenge for you Dylan.

you said earlier your 1rm was maybe 225 on flat bench.

so on this challenge, since you were honest and said “maybe” on the 225, I’ll give a little buffer.

And instead of challenging you with 135, since that would be 60% of 225, I’ll instead opt for about 120lbs.

if you can post a video of you doing about 30 reps (and the last rep better look super easy!) of 120lbs on the bench, I’m at least willing to give your argument about .00149% merit.

because 120lbs for 5,000 reps is an estimated 1rm of 20,120lbs. And 30 reps divided by 20,120lbs is .00149.

 

Crap software! I did 30 push ups. My bench max is probably 235 honestly and BW is 195 so that's about 140 lbs at the bottom of the rep. That's almost 60%.

Edited by Dylan
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50 minutes ago, Dylan said:

I have poor consistency.

 

Well from what I've read it takes close to a decade to reach the point where one can do thousands of push ups so I imagine it's similar at any %. I've done 10x10 with 45% for deadlift and the cold sweat is real. I used low rest times but I lowered the weight from 60% so I could use 30 - 60s rest times. My max was 300 lbs then and my grip was shit.

 

Steve Justa wrote a book called Rock, Iron, Steel of which he wrote a chapter recounting his job in a steel forge. He worked with a guy that had to pick up and drop 200 lb pieces of forged steel to get the warm slag off of I think tubes or something. He apparently looked about 140 lbs but he would do this for hours and hours 5 days a week. One day he missed a day and Steve had to take over. The book before this point talks about all his intense workouts and physically demanding job on a farm tossing up 90 lb hay bales with a pitch fork; though most of it was driving passenger. He had done intense and strength-endurance workouts many times before this and while working at the farm.

He was absolutely blasted after an hour. The heat of the forge is not too far and you have to pick up and drop them a few times usually to get the slag off. With the time it took him to get 1 done another was already there. After that he went a summer on the farm job with 100 lbs of chains on him to train up.

 

I've done 1000 and it was starting to get strenuous. I imagine 5000 would be difficult.

 

Well the push ups are just an example it's a single point being made. A person can get a great endurance workout by lifting heavy with very little rest for a long time. For example. 1000 lbs in 3 reps for 33 rounds in 1 hour.

 

 

Crap software! I did 30 push ups. My bench max is probably 235 honestly and BW is 195 so that's about 140 lbs at the bottom of the rep. That's almost 60%.

No, the push-up thing does not work like you think. I told you earlier I’ve done 104 push-ups non stop. And that does not suffice for doing 60% at 104 non stop reps with a barbell on the bench. Not even close. Not without some insanely suicidal concoction of drugs. And I’m not talking just PEDs. I’m talking PEDs AND like maybe snorting a few lines of angel dust and ice mixed together.

so again, I’ll still be generous. 120lbs for 30 reps on the bench press, and the last rep has to look easy. And I will give your argument .00149% credit. Lol

 

and you are on crack if you believe a 1,000lb+ deadlifter can do 33 sets of 3 reps with 1,000lbs in a single workout, let alone a single day. That’s 99 reps bro!…. Repeat.. that would be deadlifting 1,000lbs 99 times in 1 day!…. 😳 no way josè.

Because even pro strongmen, in suits, and with straps, who routinely deadlift 1,000lbs + in competition, in all honesty, have probably pulled 1,000lbs + a couple dozen times (give or take a handful) in their lives. At most. That is just entirely too much strain on the body and the nervous system. Those guys are already on the brink of dying just walking around at the size it takes to perform like that for heavy singles at 1,000lbs + on command.

I’ll give another example of super heavy lifts not being done to that extent. Julius Maddox is a near 800lb raw bencher. Like, officially, with a pause and a press command. Like, as in, for 1 rep… And it’s STILL highly probable that he’s benched even 700+ less than 30-40 times in his life. Let alone a single workout. 
 

bro. You are cray CRAY cray!

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Ok, we will leave it open but no personal attacks please. Thanks.

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On 1/5/2022 at 12:45 PM, Lennix said:

All I'm saying is, sometimes, its good to be a bit humble and accept that you perhaps don't know everything.

@Dylan Read this and remember it forever. 

16 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

And thanks for the kind words on the press, Bader. The 255 was and is one of my proudest pressing moments I’ve ever had. Because I wasn’t even specifically training it at the time. I do want to clear up some misspeak I had earlier in the thread. I looked back at my log and the 255 was sitting, not standing. Apologies for misspeaking on that. ..at least I didn’t misspeak on the no leg drive part. Lol 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

sitting does make an overhead press slightly easier tho. Due to not having to stabilize nearly as much. So I guess I can’t talk tough on that one.

they say that without even training overhead press, your overhead press will stay roughly within 60% of your flat bench numbers. Some higher, some lower. I’m assuming that percentage estimate is standing tho. But for me it’s slightly higher than 60%, especially sitting. 
And for some guys, the OH press surpasses that 60% rule of thumb. Specifically guys who train it, and maybe even skip flat bench all together. Like strongmen, etc. I would expect those guys ratios of oh press to flat bench is all out of whack. Stephen Anderson is a guy that I know has a better ratio OH press to bench. I think he’s done 400+ overhead, and I’m not sure if he’s done 400+ flat bench.

jedder is another one. I think he’s done 260’ish overhead on the barbell?.. and also come close to a 400 bench.

but the general rule of thumb is usually not less than 60% of your flat bench.

Sitting too is big lift bro! Well done! And never knew Andrew should OHP 400+ wow!!! That is super strong.

14 hours ago, Dylan said:

Mike Tyson. As for muscle mass I got 2 inches in a month just from the subjective intensity and time under tension. There are different ways of doing a repetition such as "as slow as possible", grind involving antagonist muscles as I've said, extreme speed where you exert force without knowing if it's doing something like you would in weight lifting, and a combination of blind exertion while going so slow you don't know if your strength will suddenly give out whilst using antagonist muscles. It relies on the individual or someone that knows what to look for checking what you're doing; whether it's painful and fatiguing also does it.

 

In terms of what's beneficial to train for yes. It's not unrealistic unless you consider "not likely to happen" unrealistic. It's unrealistic that people will work out for more than a month as well. Don't misrepresent any of what I'm saying either: It's clearly possible to do a body weight movement over 10, 000 times and I can bet you no one you ever meet is willing to train and go through that. No one you meet is willing to train until they can do 20, 000 push ups in one go either. It's just a matter of what people are willing to do. The principle to consider is that one should have a high endurance base at each 10% interval down from 100% because it's a foundation. You and others who are now strong admit they have a relatively strong endurance base.

 

See this isn't whether I'm right or wrong for you or others. It's about ego. It's about emotions. But I AM right. You can lift heavy or go body weight. You can get a workout just standing and flexing all of your muscles at once. You can workout using antagonistic muscles to create resistance for your agonist muscles while moving your body. The fact is people would rather not do that though.

If I asked you to stand up and contract every muscle in your body 100% you would quickly become fatigued and would notice you're putting in less effort within 12 seconds. If you put in your all it can be 6 seconds or less. How would that not be a workout if it's difficulty is similar to heavy weights? The more you put in the more you focus on the weaker muscles because they're the weak link -- how could one not fill out from this? Then adding a little resistance, the result would be good if done with enough sets, to failure, enough days of the week for enough months.

 

You act like reality is small. Two different things can work at the same time. The only one that can benefit from what I'm saying is others but go ahead and believe what you want. I have learned nothing so far except for someone's personal experiences and I never said lifting heavy doesn't work.

 

You have to consider what your rep max is and reach your rep max or reach muscular failure from fatigue and get back to it as soon as you can do 1 more rep to assure growth. Time under tension matters more so slowing it down and GRINDING out the reps helps quite a bit, getting full range of motion which makes it feel like a soft "reset" every rep. If you are plateauing on something just throw in body weight after lifting heavy and go to muscular failure followed by drop sets such as knee push ups or negative pull ups until you aren't doing much there then with the least rest possible go for a second baby set reaching failure again.

This is usually best for muscle mass though. For strength neural drive is very important, energy is important, so trying to actively get your strength back and get more reps in by pulling yourself together and just all in all drawing blood from stone will get you strength gains. Body weight work can mirror barbell work if you do it right.

Working out every day and multiple times a day will massively increase muscle size. I did the Evil Russian push up program because I believed in the methodology and was looking for programs that were along my train of thought yet missing in the forums and youtube videos I was looking at 4 years ago -- I would see "300 push ups every day for 30 days!" and they'd give shit half reps or just go through the motion and barely look like they were trying on their last set for the day because they broke it up into sets of 10 and took 10 hours to do it or some crap. Nowadays I can find someone adding an inch to their calves up to 18 inch total doing 256 calf raises for 100 days because they use time under tension, slow it down and get a good stretch getting a good pump due to the strenuous nature of the method.

I was thinking "okay I need a high frequency every hour type program and to hit max muscle fatigue" because I could feel how difficult going to the point of pain and fatigue is and how simple it must be to make progress yet the explanation why people DON'T was RIGHT THERE. The second it's explosively painful and nausea inducing people lock up and back off. Their heart is not in it.

Every time I made progress it was with difficulty. Struggle. I was thinking I could prove to myself that THAT is what matters and decided to go with the classic push ups. I decided that finding that type of program for push ups would be simple, and that I would prove to myself that the key measure is PAIN AND FATIGUE and that I could add at least .75 inches in a month. .75 inches would mean it works and I could always go even harder for more progress. But I got 2 inches on my chest and really lost the will by the last week so that's basically 2 inches in 3 weeks with some anxious constant will to start doing more push ups that wasn't enough in the last week to be consistent at all skipping half the days and most the workouts for the days I did.

That's what works. If you're anxious about your training because of its difficulty and the will and focus you are about to bring, and do it anyway, you will progress a shit ton. Might be more muscle gain than strength depending on "where your heart is". I do not know how you trained when doing high reps but how you do them matters for progress.

 

Not a fan of straps but the issue is most people don't have the strength to close against it. Most of it is a muscle lock. The closer could bring serious torque but it requires strength in that form. The position to close is a bit awkward but it boils down to strength training that position just like they strength train the king's move. I have not seen people work out that position much when I see arm wrestling training videos. I see from side to close stuff but it's pretty minimalist.

Dude are you high on something?! It's a legit question. This is the most utter crap I have read in my life. Even Shaolin Kung Fu 72 secret arts is more "reliable". Of course I won't meet someone willing to train to do 20,000 straight pushups without rest. Neither will I meet someone willing to train to do 20,000,000 push ups. Neither someone who is willing to bang his head against a wall 20,000 times. But guess what? Those people whom I met and trained with are the strongest on Earth and they trained way different than this silly method of yours. Not even Mike Tyson did that. And guess what too? I am strong myself without doing any of that. Will you next say that with your formula you can punch so fast the the oxygen burns around your fist thus making a fire fist? Another legit question, are you a troll? Or just a delusional person? Something along the lines of Ryan Blue Bowen. Perhaps even surpassing him. And when you say you gain 2 inches? What do you mean? 2 inches to your forearms? Chest? Something else? What?! Dude you will get strong if you train right. Stop with day dreaming really. It won't get you anywhere. 

14 hours ago, Dylan said:

@Alawadhi The formula is good. Agility based stuff complicates things but people can do 10k push ups in a row and that was a ~200 lb top heavy man. Push ups are about 70% BW at the top, 75% at the bottom. You can get endurance and cardio gains from heavy weight lifting too you just have to use less rest and go for a crap ton of volume until "gassing out" is the issue over something else. The physiological perceptions are what's real here.

Your formula is a joke. Wake up...Plus, who are you? Any videos of your lifts? When someone gives advice and say they are right then they should be able to back it up. You can't back up anything.

13 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

Dude… for crying out loud..

I think each and every one of us reading this thread has been holding back from saying something along these lines.. and I apologize I’m the one to have to put this out there.

if you were right, your lifts would be much stronger than where they are.

I do apologize for tossing that jab.. but no amount of broadband you occupy here will be worth your time until you have some lifts to back up the hype.

 

and it is obvious that even you don’t train the way you suggest. Do you have any idea how long just a 10x10 bench workout takes at about 60%?
it takes near an hour if you actually want to finish all 10 reps on your last 3 or so sets. 6-8 minute breaks between sets.

and if you can move through a 10x10 faster than about 35 minutes at 60%, then you’re lying about your 1rm, or you’re on some pretty substantial PEDs. 
 

so no. No one is doing 5,000 reps at 50%. Ever. It will never happen.

Good that you mentioned it and yeah you were right. Let me add to that. Dylan, go test yourself today on max lifts and then train using your own methods and test yourself in 6 month. Let's see what happens. I bet not much besides the newbie gains.

Bro he also said 10% or something will get you to 4.3 million reps in one go. The dude is either a troll or delusional. No one in his right mind will say these things.

13 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

You know what, you are right. You win. Your workout is paramount. And there is no better way to get stronger. You have figured it out.

Hopefully the US military, the NFL,  every strength coach out there who receives any salary what so ever, and every Olympian will model training people the way you say. Because it sounds like we are about to see super soldiers, and athletes like we’ve never seen before. And the only reason we haven’t yet is because people are idiots. And won’t listen.

It’s been a great big secret all along.

the world is saved.

LOL

13 hours ago, stranger said:

I think I'm an outlier for this.  For a few years @Wayne and myself would workout together 3-5 time a week. He's 5-8 about 200 and I was 6-3 around 232 at the time of this. 

His bench max was around 405 and mine was just under 300 but on standing push press I was within striking distance of him. I could do 260 and I believe he was 5-10 over me. 

Now mind you we did almost the exact same workouts together for years! We just always thought that was interesting. 

I wonder if there's a correlation with being good at push press and being tall?

anyway, you guys can continue. I've been enjoying this thread a bunch. 🍿

Lol we are entertainment to you now 😛 

13 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

Fwiw @Dylan you are welcome to train with me whenever. But I’m gonna give you a hard time when you get to about rep 17-18 at 60% and burnout. 😬

@Dylan Same offer here. My gym is open for you. Come and show me all of this endurance thing because it won't work.

12 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

Challenge for you Dylan.

you said earlier your 1rm was maybe 225 on flat bench.

so on this challenge, since you were honest and said “maybe” on the 225, I’ll give a little buffer.

And instead of challenging you with 135, since that would be 60% of 225, I’ll instead opt for about 120lbs.

if you can post a video of you doing about 30 reps (and the last rep better look super easy!) of 120lbs on the bench, I’m at least willing to give your argument about .00149% merit.

because 120lbs for 5,000 reps is an estimated 1rm of 20,120lbs. And 30 reps divided by 20,120lbs is .00149.

LOL. He won't do it period. 

8 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

No, the push-up thing does not work like you think. I told you earlier I’ve done 104 push-ups non stop. And that does not suffice for doing 60% at 104 non stop reps with a barbell on the bench. Not even close. Not without some insanely suicidal concoction of drugs. And I’m not talking just PEDs. I’m talking PEDs AND like maybe snorting a few lines of angel dust and ice mixed together.

so again, I’ll still be generous. 120lbs for 30 reps on the bench press, and the last rep has to look easy. And I will give your argument .00149% credit. Lol

 

and you are on crack if you believe a 1,000lb+ deadlifter can do 33 sets of 3 reps with 1,000lbs in a single workout, let alone a single day. That’s 99 reps bro!…. Repeat.. that would be deadlifting 1,000lbs 99 times in 1 day!…. 😳 no way josè.

Because even pro strongmen, in suits, and with straps, who routinely deadlift 1,000lbs + in competition, in all honesty, have probably pulled 1,000lbs + a couple dozen times (give or take a handful) in their lives. At most. That is just entirely too much strain on the body and the nervous system. Those guys are already on the brink of dying just walking around at the size it takes to perform like that for heavy singles at 1,000lbs + on command.

I’ll give another example of super heavy lifts not being done to that extent. Julius Maddox is a near 800lb raw bencher. Like, officially, with a pause and a press command. Like, as in, for 1 rep… And it’s STILL highly probable that he’s benched even 700+ less than 30-40 times in his life. Let alone a single workout. 
 

bro. You are cray CRAY cray!

100%. It actually cracked me up to know there are some people believe it is possible to deadlift 1000 LBS 99 times in a day. He surpassed Joe Kinney's 440 LBS for 60 reps everyday squat before breakfast lol.  This guy has no idea how strength works. Unless he proves to me he can get strong using his methods then I won't take him seriously. 

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I don't think it's fair to personally judge his strength that's independant of one's knowledge. There a ton of fantastic coaches who are put of shape, in all sports. Application and results are what matter. I've helped people deadlift over 500lbs, and I myself will likely never do that and that doesn't take anything away from my training knowledge. 

Dylan just needs to become a trainer, get a team of people to win gold medals and break world records and then the results will speak for themselves. If these training methods are so effective than it should be really easy to out perform lifters who train the typical way. 

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40 minutes ago, Climber028 said:

I don't think it's fair to personally judge his strength that's independant of one's knowledge. There a ton of fantastic coaches who are put of shape, in all sports. Application and results are what matter. I've helped people deadlift over 500lbs, and I myself will likely never do that and that doesn't take anything away from my training knowledge. 

Dylan just needs to become a trainer, get a team of people to win gold medals and break world records and then the results will speak for themselves. If these training methods are so effective than it should be really easy to out perform lifters who train the typical way. 

How do you “personally” judge someone’s strength? Giving merit or not on strength levels is actually one of the most super objective ways to judge or classify someone. Is that what it’s called when you question anyone’s training methods that so happens to lift less than you?.. judging their lifts personally?  Further, what do you call it when you judge someone’s lifts that lifts more than you? Hating? There apparently exists no proper way to discuss the merit of someone’s lifts without your sentiments receiving some kind of seedy title. It’s very odd.

He needs merit one way or another BEFORE he is to be taken seriously. He nor the guy who wrote that book he keeps thumbing through never did anything noteworthy or trained anyone noteworthy. So essentially what we are discussing is a training “idea”, since zero merit exists.

But how do we establish weather merit exists?”

….by asking them how much they lift, or how much the students they train lift..


We’re talking training regimes, that if genuinely attempted, could spell permanent disaster for someone. Or worse. Rhabdo is life threatening, and can kill you. And the training methods he keeps talking about is a fine way to end up with rhabdo or some other sort of overtraining injury or illness.

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I mean equating ones strength with their knowledge is irrational. There's probably some 80 year old amazing weightlifting coaches that are weaker than me, but of course they know more about training and could be more successful than I am. Plus it may not be a goal, I can teach someone to bench too, but mine is pitiful because I don't like benching and I don't do it. You can be smart and weak or strong and dumb, and everything in between. 

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