Rick Browne Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Never say never...... By the way, Since you legitimately closed a #4, you do not care to be on Ironmind's #4 list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Savage Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Rick Browne said: Never say never...... By the way, Since you legitimately closed a #4, you do not care to be on Ironmind's #4 list? Yes, i and a number of others have been trying to do this for many years, nobody on the list certed with the new rules, an that would be a joke sauce easy rep warm up for the level that Joe claimed to be at. Edited February 12, 2021 by Paul Savage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Browne Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Ok I gotcha.... I forgot about the new rules on certifying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slazbob Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Paul Savage said: Ive tried all kinneys stuff and basically every grip training method under the sun, ive probably progressed as much as anybody ever has on grippers, and actually legitamitely closed #4 grippers, won gripper events in world championships, coached my partner to the same etc and i can tell you with absolute fact, his methods are literally less than useless, as they not only don't work, but will eventually get you injured and severely as guys have been. You have just said how to do it, get a severe weight that rips your hand open and let it loose on you. Im sorry but that is just plain dumb, nobody does that in any exercise over any sport, the squat example was an accurate equivilant, its a train wreck waiting to happen and theres so many better methods to improve. This really isn't rocket science, the guys shows a supposed #4 close where he basically no set closes it in slow motion, then grinds the handles together, an he doesn't even have good technique. I don't think there's anybody that can replicate what he did even with a #3 today, ive done 30 second no set closes on #3 doing slow motion through the full rom and 16 no set reps an i can't. It's as simple as 1+1=2 to realise its faked or some kind of malfunction to the gripper. There's as much chance of 400lb me winning a marathon race. He also says he never finished a workout without adding weight or volume - no, just no, that didn't happen an can't happen, it's never happened with anyone. I don’t know Paul....you said your hands bruise easy, so you couldn’t have given Joe’s methods much of a try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Savage Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Just now, slazbob said: I don’t know Paul....you said your hands bruise easy, so you couldn’t have given Joe’s methods much of a try Easier than i would like sure but when training with 4 or 4+ grippers a lot will bruise, it's a lot of pressure, magnus samuelsson said it was the same for him. It makes no odds either way, doesnt take more than a drop of common sense to know Kinney's methods arnt going to work. If i said lets do 60 severe negatives on bench press each week starting with 100lbs above your max, increasing each week, you would, i hope, say no thanks id rather not tear my chest off you nut case. Its no different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Savage Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 An id also be saying that as a guy who at 170lbs, 20 years ago put up a video showing an apparent 800lb raw bench press, with poor technique where i did it in slow motion then after locking it out proceeded to unlock my elbows then relock them several times over whilst saying 'did you see the lockout? Did you see it? Yeah thats good' then rack it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy J. Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Paul Savage said: An id also be saying that as a guy who at 170lbs, 20 years ago put up a video showing an apparent 800lb raw bench press, with poor technique where i did it in slow motion then after locking it out proceeded to unlock my elbows then relock them several times over whilst saying 'did you see the lockout? Did you see it? Yeah thats good' then rack it. No lie, this would be the exact equivalent to what Joe did with the #4 in the video. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slazbob Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 Ya know, I’ve mentioned to Joe once that I just couldn’t duplicate the way he closes the no.4 in the video. No matter what easy gripper I tried. Then I mentioned to him what everyone else has mentioned- the gripper speeding up at the bottom. Then, I mentioned something that I feel will give anyone the answers they need; I mentioned to him why the easy gripper he is using in the video to demonstrate how he did it, closed normally?...meaning it slows at the bottom- if you listen to the squeaky spring, it too goes from a high pitch to a low pitch squeak. He never answered why and I never pushed it a second time. It’s something I feel you can’t explain any other way. Even if you trained beyond the range day and night, your body will still not speed up a spring that gets harder at the bottom...you simply would just be able to close a little harder gripper than normal. And that easy gripper demonstrations he was showing proved it if he had all that speed that easy gripper should have been sparking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slazbob Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 27 minutes ago, Hopefully said: In the Joe thread on the Ironmind forum he addresses this and says that given the training he was doing, making the last part his strong area, the last part speeding up makes sense. I think he also says that it was an easy gripper for him and he closes it slowly for demonstration purposes. If the gripper is easy for him, doing the sweep slowly is easy enough, but as the gripper gets heavy towards the end maximal effort would probably be required in order to close it, hence he gives it everything and it speeds up. I'm not sure I believe Joe either but I don't think the way the close looks is necessarily that suspect. It is suspect perhaps because it is a #4, though. Hence my point! It can’t be slowing down with an easy gripper (listen to the spring) and speeding up with a no.4 -and him acting like it took every thing out of him yet it’s speeding up and being dominated. I’ve never made those sounds with even a no.2 i’ve always believed Joe, but I feel that close in the video is off. And that’s with a lot of personal testing and watching his video over and over and with the zoom on dvd. The best way to duplicate the close is with a Vulcan gripper...which gets easier at the close vs the start and mid as the spring passes it’s strength and gets lengthened. I asked Joe if he was trying to go slow and speed it up and he said “no, I was just closing normally.” as before with this topic, there just wasn’t enough proof for these days. And the strange circumstances; a gripper getting stolen, Joe refusing a no.5 from Randall and basically quitting before anyone got too close. Remember, he certified the no.3 and knew he just needed a picture, so, he didn’t think he’d be pushed for further authenticity. he’s always been cool with me, and tries to be helpful with advice. I think he got obsessed with the no.4 and built all his equipment and got the same results as most of us that tried it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottledCitrus Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 On 2/12/2021 at 6:52 AM, Wannagrip said: Humor is allowed but not at the expense of flaming other members (against the rules for 20 years now here) and using it as a passive aggressive means to be a jerk to another person. "Derp...ummm...duhhh....I was just making a joke! heh heh heh come on man. These moderators are heavy handed. What the heck man!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slazbob Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Hopefully said: Yeah well, we'll never know. Personally I don't think it's that unbeliavable to close a #4 like that, we have all seen how different people are genetically when it comes to grip strength. Some guys can play with the #3 with little or no training, while others will never close it. Why couldn't there be people with the same potential with the #4. Although in all this time at least someone else should have showed up with the same ability you would think, so that's a little weird. Also weird that uber beasts like Kirill cannot do the same, although I suspect they haven't tried as hard either. Joe had/has excellent genetics his hands and forearms wrists all look amazing in those old pictures he showed in the Get A Grip video with John Wood. And there is a picture of his holding a no.3 shut with two fingers. I believe the guy, just something is off with that no.4 video close. Along with the normal close of the easy gripper- which in fact may be a no.3 which he is handling very easy. You may recall the story of him getting a no.3 because he was talked into getting the no.2 and it was too easy. Did he send it back, or did Randall just send him a no.3 for talking him into the no.2 ? He did only have two grippers on screen so maybe the no.2 was sent back. Haha... it’s an interesting story I love talking about. It’s funny if Joe didn’t wide-set that gripper nobody would have ever questioned it -I guarantee it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaesar83 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 4 hours ago, Hopefully said: Yeah well, we'll never know. Personally I don't think it's that unbeliavable to close a #4 like that, we have all seen how different people are genetically when it comes to grip strength. Some guys can play with the #3 with little or no training, while others will never close it. Why couldn't there be people with the same potential with the #4. Although in all this time at least someone else should have showed up with the same ability you would think, so that's a little weird. Also weird that uber beasts like Kirill cannot do the same, although I suspect they haven't tried as hard either. Well there has been; is everyone forgetting Magnus made the #4 look pretty damn easy. Not that I'm either pro or anti Kinney but to say no-one has shown up with the same ability isn't true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist of Fury Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 17 minutes ago, Kaesar83 said: Well there has been; is everyone forgetting Magnus made the #4 look pretty damn easy. Not that I'm either pro or anti Kinney but to say no-one has shown up with the same ability isn't true. No one have displayed such strength as Kinney claim to have with his video. Not even Magnus and I think that says a lot about Kinney's video. Considering Magnus had one of the strongest arms and hands of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryroza Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_wigren Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 Y’all just jealous of his moustache. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaesar83 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Fist of Fury said: No one have displayed such strength as Kinney claim to have with his video. Not even Magnus and I think that says a lot about Kinney's video. Considering Magnus had one of the strongest arms and hands of all time. Well that's an opinion and not a fact but to play devil's advocate let's just say I agree for a second that Magnus close wasn't as impressive as Kinney's. We do not know enough about the Kinney close and that is the problem in this whole saga. Kinney could've had an easy #4 and Magnus may well have pulled the hardest #4 ever. Is this likely? Probably not. Is this in the realms of possibility? Yes. So even if we say Kinney's close was superior to Magnus' by a good margin, which tbh I personally don't, we don't have enough information to ascertain the reason for that gap. Long and short, there are too many unknowns. The issue with the Kinney debate is that quite frankly we don't have enough information or evidence either way. I am neither pro or anti but until someone can definitively prove it didn't happen then I'm not going to disbelieve. Just because someone else says "I can't do that with a #whatever" again doesn't prove anything. I cannot run 70m in the time Bolt can do 100m so that must mean it didn't happen. This kind of argument is totally flawed. Do I believe Kinney has closed it? With 100% certainty obviously not but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I've read all the posts and arguments and none of these have managed to disproved otherwise dispite the amount of effort people seem to put in. Seeing as closing a #4 has been done by quite a few (non certs and MMS), and a few old style certs proves this isn't an unachievable feat. Therefore, until otherwise proven I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Also, I notice a lot of those commenting haven't actually read that much, if they had they would know a bit more about his "supposed" squat setup. Again, that's not to say I believe or disbelieve that particular "feat" either it but from what people have commented further up it's akin to people seeing a headline on a post and commenting without reading the actual article, typical Facebook type stuff imo. Maybe they're just memeing on it but if that's the case then they could at least make the effort and do it with a captioned picture. Edited February 14, 2021 by Kaesar83 Spelling 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist of Fury Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 40 minutes ago, Hopefully said: I mean, from what I recall Magnus basically deep sets the gripper and braces his leg while closing it, looking like he'll explode from the effort. How can this possibly be the same level of strength as a close where the gripper is closed slowly on purpose for demonstration purposes with basically a no set, then grinding the gripper effortlessly (which requires much more strength than just closing it), and then speaking while doing so? I mean they don't even belong in the same discussion. Haven't seen the video in years so I could be wrong though. Yep. There's nothing that comes close to Kinney's supposed strength when it comes to grippers. The best effort I've seen with grippers on video is Carl Myerscough closing the GHP9 rated 216 with GHP block and David Shamey closing Level 27 with Vulcan gripper. But as awesome as this is, it doesn't come close to Kinney's close of the #4. Closing it the way he did it makes all the difference. Doesn't matter if it's rated 195, it's still more impressive. I do think it's humanly possible to close it like that but I don't think that the gripepr Kinney used was legit #4. Probably a tampered gripper. It's the way the video is done that makes me think that, not the performance. It doesn't show the gripper opening again, which is the most important give away. I really don't care if you close a #1 or #4 on video. When you hide details like that I'm always going to be skeptical. It really is not that uncommon for people to fake strength related stuff. Actually happened here on the board a few months ago. There's always people that want recognition that they don't deserve. There always going to be dishonest and honest people, that's just how humans work. Also, look at Carl and David's videos, as I mentioned. They look real, you can see there, two massively strong guys actually struggle to make the closes. Same goes for Magnus, the #4 is not easy for him. Could Magnus crush have been in the 230's? Yes possibly, we'll never know. What I do know is that one of the #4 he still has is not in that range. Probably in the lower range, based on a interview he did a few years ago, he could still close that one, but not close brand new #4's out of the package. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaesar83 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Hopefully said: I mean, from what I recall Magnus basically deep sets the gripper and braces his leg while closing it, looking like he'll explode from the effort. How can this possibly be the same level of strength as a close where the gripper is closed slowly on purpose for demonstration purposes with basically a no set, then grinding the gripper effortlessly (which requires much more strength than just closing it), and then speaking while doing so? I mean they don't even belong in the same discussion. Haven't seen the video in years so I could be wrong though. He did close the gripper lower down, I've seen plenty of people prefer to set it that way but whilst it looks like he is bracing it against his leg if you look closely I don't believe he actually is. Neither video are their "cert videos" so that doesn't really help either. I agree slightly but who to say Magnus couldn't have closed it from wider set also due to the size of his hands we have no idea how that fast the close was. Lastly, going back to the whole not knowing the ratings, Magnus #4 "could've" been 30lb harder based on current known ratings for #4s. My main point is we don't know but from 2 videos of poor quality with unknown grippers you seem to be adamant that Magnus or anyone else can't possibly replicate the feat. The burden of proof is with you to prove that someone else can't, not for me to prove that someone can; as I said before I'm neither pro or anti and there isn't hard undeniable evidence to disapprove. We should probably get back to the SW else this will just end up like any other Kinney #4 discussion where it inevitably goes around in circles (or nowhere at all). I'm happy to agree that we probably won't agree on this though and that's fine. Edited February 14, 2021 by Kaesar83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaesar83 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, Fist of Fury said: Yep. There's nothing that comes close to Kinney's supposed strength when it comes to grippers. The best effort I've seen with grippers on video is Carl Myerscough closing the GHP9 rated 216 with GHP block and David Shamey closing Level 27 with Vulcan gripper. But as awesome as this is, it doesn't come close to Kinney's close of the #4. Closing it the way he did it makes all the difference. Doesn't matter if it's rated 195, it's still more impressive. I do think it's humanly possible to close it like that but I don't think that the gripepr Kinney used was legit #4. Probably a tampered gripper. It's the way the video is done that makes me think that, not the performance. It doesn't show the gripper opening again, which is the most important give away. I really don't care if you close a #1 or #4 on video. When you hide details like that I'm always going to be skeptical. It really is not that uncommon for people to fake strength related stuff. Actually happened here on the board a few months ago. There's always people that want recognition that they don't deserve. There always going to be dishonest and honest people, that's just how humans work. Also, look at Carl and David's videos, as I mentioned. They look real, you can see there, two massively strong guys actually struggle to make the closes. Same goes for Magnus, the #4 is not easy for him. Could Magnus crush have been in the 230's? Yes possibly, we'll never know. What I do know is that one of the #4 he still has is not in that range. Probably in the lower range, based on a interview he did a few years ago, he could still close that one, but not close brand new #4's out of the package. It could well be that the gripper was tampered, I'm not completely ruling that out either but again it is only speculation. The issues I have with that tho is that back then hardly anyone in the entire world would actual care about the feat. It's not like today where grip is a bigger but still niche sport and you have social media which can be used for financial gain. It would be like me solving a rubix cube with my d*ck, nobody would really give a damn and I certainly wouldn't benefit from it in anyway at all. To me faking something that literally probably only 1 handful of people would care about, back then, for no actual gain seems utterly pointless. Also, if you've read Kinney's letters he really doesn't seem like the kind of person who really cares about what others think. He isn't one of these Instagram influencers. Regarding the video, it wasn't even required for the cert back then. There was no standard for showing a close on video. People didn't have an iPhone X with a high res camera on it, they had old potato cameras. Everyone seems to judge the close like it happened yesterday "why does it go out of frame etc etc". I imagine there are still a few official cert videos that are taken and failed today because even now people don't get the video framing right etc. Not sure how we expect someone to follow today's guidelines on video certs when that wasn't even a thing back then and all that was required was a picture which could be faked a hell of a lot easier. If I was going to fake it and only required a picture then I'd do just that; I wouldn't go to all the extra effort and try to fake a video as well tlas it would be much easier for people to disprove than a still. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist of Fury Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 32 minutes ago, Kaesar83 said: It could well be that the gripper was tampered, I'm not completely ruling that out either but again it is only speculation. The issues I have with that tho is that back then hardly anyone in the entire world would actual care about the feat. It's not like today where grip is a bigger but still niche sport and you have social media which can be used for financial gain. It would be like me solving a rubix cube with my d*ck, nobody would really give a damn and I certainly wouldn't benefit from it in anyway at all. To me faking something that literally probably only 1 handful of people would care about, back then, for no actual gain seems utterly pointless. Also, if you've read Kinney's letters he really doesn't seem like the kind of person who really cares about what others think. He isn't one of these Instagram influencers. Regarding the video, it wasn't even required for the cert back then. There was no standard for showing a close on video. People didn't have an iPhone X with a high res camera on it, they had old potato cameras. Everyone seems to judge the close like it happened yesterday "why does it go out of frame etc etc". I imagine there are still a few official cert videos that are taken and failed today because even now people don't get the video framing right etc. Not sure how we expect someone to follow today's guidelines on video certs when that wasn't even a thing back then and all that was required was a picture which could be faked a hell of a lot easier. If I was going to fake it and only required a picture then I'd do just that; I wouldn't go to all the extra effort and try to fake a video as well tlas it would be much easier for people to disprove than a still. It's pretty much common sense that it's something fishy about Kinney's video of the #4 close. He had a camera apparently. Also why is that the only video of him closing a #4? I would personally done it completely different. I would have had way more videos of me closing it and I would maybe do some reps to show I could dominate the gripper like he did. But that's just me. It just screams fake about it as far as I'm concerned. Also, while we're talking about Magnus, I'm not going to speak for others but pretty sure he also thinks it's fake. There's a video on YT when he does some old time strongman feats in front of of an audience. And during that show he mentions the captains of crush grippers and he doesn't say clearly that it's 5 people certified on it. Although he obviously know there's 5 people on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaesar83 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Hopefully said: I have no interest in proving anything to you. Just stating my point of view. If you or others don't agree then that's simply how it is. I didn't say you "have" to prove anything, I was pointing out that I'm on the fence and not trying to prove that the close was legit. People seem to be adamant it's a fake and if that is the case then they should prove it with evidence and not a "it's fake because I say so". It was a generalised "you" and not a specific you. Lastly, I'm all for opinions that's why we're presumably having this conversation as it's interesting or certainly a contested viewpoint? I'm not here to win internet points either. I don't think we will ever know 100% either way tbh. Edited February 14, 2021 by Kaesar83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alawadhi Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 On 2/12/2021 at 5:44 PM, Paul Savage said: It's because this has been proven by many to not work, and also have a pretty high risk of serious injury. It's also just common sense, a slow negative with a bit above maximum weight would be one thing but having it so severely heavy it instantly opens your hand is the equivilant of trying to get a stronger squat by setting a well above maximal weight on a forklift and having it dump it on your shoulders causing you to get stapled to the pins, then by his methods, the forklift lift it up and repeat 60 times over. Are you going to the squat hall of fame? No, you are going to the hospital. 100% you will end up hurting yourself. His methods will not do you anything besides getting people injured. Do people know you've been chasing the #4 cert since a long time and still can't? Despite all the strength you've gained, it is extremely hard. You are like what 175 KG? And Kinney was 170 pounds? But one thing Kinney has over us, squatting 200 KG for 60 reps before breakfast, all without training for it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaesar83 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 22 minutes ago, Fist of Fury said: It's pretty much common sense that it's something fishy about Kinney's video of the #4 close. He had a camera apparently. Also why is that the only video of him closing a #4? I would personally done it completely different. I would have had way more videos of me closing it and I would maybe do some reps to show I could dominate the gripper like he did. But that's just me. It just screams fake about it as far as I'm concerned. Also, while we're talking about Magnus, I'm not going to speak for others but pretty sure he also thinks it's fake. There's a video on YT when he does some old time strongman feats in front of of an audience. And during that show he mentions the captains of crush grippers and he doesn't say clearly that it's 5 people certified on it. Although he obviously know there's 5 people on the list. True but things that seem legit sometimes aren't and sometimes things that are fishy turn out to be legit. Just because it might seem fishy isn't hard proof either way and that's the whole problem. Perhaps we need a proper video (not an internet) expert to take a look. Agreed, I'd personally have also done it differently myself but also back then if I didn't need to video it I wouldn't have bothered at all. Unfortunately, the certification requirements back then weren't stringent enough and hence why this is still a contested topic. Have you got a link to that? I'd be interested in watching it, just in general, as well as for the certs but you mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaesar83 Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, Hopefully said: Oh I see, sorry then. I'm at work and just skimming through the posts. I agree with you about being on the fence since neither side can prove or disprove anything. I consider myself neutral as well, with perhaps leaning a bit more towards fake. But seeing as we can't possibly know that 100% I'm open to it being real as well. Yeah no worries; I probably don't always word things in writing as they are in my head so often people don't get my exact meanings, but that is on me. I lean slightly towards non fake because well, benefit of the doubt and I guess I'd like to believe it is possible, not that I'll ever get there . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist of Fury Posted February 14, 2021 Share Posted February 14, 2021 17 minutes ago, Alawadhi said: 100% you will end up hurting yourself. His methods will not do you anything besides getting people injured. Do people know you've been chasing the #4 cert since a long time and still can't? Despite all the strength you've gained, it is extremely hard. You are like what 175 KG? And Kinney was 170 pounds? But one thing Kinney has over us, squatting 200 KG for 60 reps before breakfast, all without training for it Ever heard that squatting primes your CNS? Helps for grip strength you know. You should try it. Just because you can't squat 200 kg for reps doesn't mean someone else can't do 60 reps with that weight as a warmup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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