Little big horn and torn biceps?

[mfin77]

From what I read, the one inch vbar  with heavy weights puts a lot of pressure on the biceps tendon, is it the same with the little big horn. Since your not using as heavy weights I would assume no. But I like to get advice before I purchase something? Has anyone torn their biceps with the little big horn?

[temmmeeee]

11 minutes ago, mfin77 said:

From what I read, the one inch vbar  with heavy weights puts a lot of pressure on the biceps tendon, is it the same with the little big horn. Since your not using as heavy weights I would assume no. But I like to get advice before I purchase something? Has anyone torn their biceps with the little big horn?

I tore mine in July but it was with like 280lbs and I'm vulnerable to bicep tears because my arms don't straighten. I don't think you really have to worry if you make sure to warm up well and aren't too supinated when you lift it (that was the mistake I made in the heat of the moment). I'd say it's generally a safe lift.

[Climber028]

You just have to be mindful about it. People used to lift with a verybsupinated arm and then crank back in the lockout, this is the same position that causes biceps tears during a mixed grip deadlift. If instead you start a little sulinated and the pronate hard during the lift then you will get into a much safer and stronger position. You could also just lift totally neutral but this will decrease performance for most people. 

[mfin77]

4 hours ago, temmmeeee said:

I tore mine in July but it was with like 280lbs and I'm vulnerable to bicep tears because my arms don't straighten. I don't think you really have to worry if you make sure to warm up well and aren't too supinated when you lift it (that was the mistake I made in the heat of the moment). I'd say it's generally a safe lift.

Sorry to hear that, did you fully tear it or partial?

[mfin77]

4 hours ago, Climber028 said:

You just have to be mindful about it. People used to lift with a verybsupinated arm and then crank back in the lockout, this is the same position that causes biceps tears during a mixed grip deadlift. If instead you start a little sulinated and the pronate hard during the lift then you will get into a much safer and stronger position. You could also just lift totally neutral but this will decrease performance for most people. 

So if your pronated or neutral You don’t put stress on the bicep? It’s just when your supinated Or bent arm is when the bicep tendon takes the Load?

[temmmeeee]

50 minutes ago, mfin77 said:

Sorry to hear that, did you fully tear it or partial?

Thankfully just a partial but I'm still healing and have to avoid or go easy on certain things 

[Climber028]

2 hours ago, mfin77 said:

So if your pronated or neutral You don’t put stress on the bicep? It’s just when your supinated Or bent arm is when the bicep tendon takes the Load?

Stated simply, yes tho of course there is a lot more biomechanics going on. The biceps in addition to being an elbow flexor are also a supinator, so when fully supinated the bicep is stretched near end range and that is an easy spot for an injury especially with improperly trained tissues. Most people never train high loads on the bicep with a straight arm, like a gymnast might. 

[Ivan Pupchenko]

 

I tore my brachialis (this is the muscle under the biceps) during jug training, a month before KK in 2018. Tear occurred at the end of an easy attempt - 75kg for 5reps, with my maximum at that time about +110kg. In my opinion, it's not just vertical grip. And not only weight. It's just that your hand is either ready to exercise or not. Mine was not ready then. As a confirmation of my words, I can say that last year Artem Ushenko felt a sharp pain in his biceps while performing the crusher on the KK. He had previously trained lifting with the handle parallel to his shoulders, when he dont lifti next weight - he tried to lift it by turning the crusher perpendicularly (along the axis of view). he lifted the weight - but it was his last attempt with that hand that day. The rest of the exercises he had to do with a weak hand. Fortunately, everything was limited to a painful stretching.

[mfin77]

12 minutes ago, Ivan Pupchenko said:

 

I tore my brachialis (this is the muscle under the biceps) during jug training, a month before KK in 2018. Tear occurred at the end of an easy attempt - 75kg for 5reps, with my maximum at that time about +110kg. In my opinion, it's not just vertical grip. And not only weight. It's just that your hand is either ready to exercise or not. Mine was not ready then. As a confirmation of my words, I can say that last year Artem Ushenko felt a sharp pain in his biceps while performing the crusher on the KK. He had previously trained lifting with the handle parallel to his shoulders, when he dont lifti next weight - he tried to lift it by turning the crusher perpendicularly (along the axis of view). he lifted the weight - but it was his last attempt with that hand that day. The rest of the exercises he had to do with a weak hand. Fortunately, everything was limited to a painful stretching.

So your saying he tore his bicep on the crusher lifting it a different way than he trained, and he wasn’t ready for it and pulled a tendon?

[Ivan Pupchenko]

1 hour ago, mfin77 said:

So your saying he tore his bicep on the crusher lifting it a different way than he trained, and he wasn’t ready for it and pulled a tendon?

He suffered a sprain so severe that he could no longer use his strong arm that day. Not tore. He trained both varant throughout 2020, and now he does not feel any discomfort. Likewise, I have chosen a style in which I do not have dangerous angles and loads in the elbow with vertical devices. This is a question of the preparedness of your body, not the danger of the device. Some exercises are more dangerous, some less. You just need to think with your head before attaching the disks to the pin, and pulling the weight with bulging eyes. It's like going into the ring against a Champion with a few trainings with a bag behind your back.... In my experience, strong people are more often injured. Those who came to grip from other sports. Beginners and weaklings rarely lift enough for these types of injuries. for a beginner, the most vulnerable is the spine.

[bdckr]

On 11/27/2020 at 6:19 PM, Climber028 said:

Stated simply, yes tho of course there is a lot more biomechanics going on. The biceps in addition to being an elbow flexor are also a supinator, so when fully supinated the bicep is stretched near end range and that is an easy spot for an injury especially with improperly trained tissues. Most people never train high loads on the bicep with a straight arm, like a gymnast might. 

Practical advice is spot on, but the mechanics are a little off.

Yes, biceps flexes the elbow and supinates the forearm.  Which means the biceps is shortest when the elbow is flexed and the forearm is supinated.

When forearm is supinated, the biceps are in the best position to maximally contract.  And maximal contraction is what leads to tears.  When the forearm is pronated (and elbow extended), the biceps is stretched out and in a position that impairs maximal contraction.

You can see this by holding your arm out in front of you with a straight elbow. Go back and forth between palm down (pronated) and palm up (supinated).  You can see the biceps shortening with supination and lengthening out again with pronation.

Sorry, anatomy nerd here.

[Climber028]

I'm aware, trying to keep things as short and broad as possible since most people don't care about the details and just need to know how to do the lift. Anybody that is interested in anatomy would already know what's going on so no need to elaborate. 

[DAVE101]

On 12/8/2020 at 3:00 PM, Climber028 said:

I'm aware, trying to keep things as short and broad as possible since most people don't care about the details and just need to know how to do the lift. Anybody that is interested in anatomy would already know what's going on so no need to elaborate. 

He's not saying your explanation is incomplete or missing details, but that you meant "stretched when fully pronated" when in fact you wrote the opposite.

[mfin77]

3 hours ago, DAVE101 said:

He's not saying your explanation is incomplete or missing details, but that you meant "stretched when fully pronated" when in fact you wrote the opposite.

Now I’m  confused, if you start the lift in a position with the palm facing away from the body (supinate) your bicep is fully stretched and this is what leads to tears.  Is this correct? 

[Chez]

3 hours ago, mfin77 said:

Now I’m  confused, if you start the lift in a position with the palm facing away from the body (supinate) your bicep is fully stretched and this is what leads to tears.  Is this correct? 

Yes. Supinated is more dangerous 

[DAVE101]

12 hours ago, mfin77 said:

Now I’m  confused, if you start the lift in a position with the palm facing away from the body (supinate) your bicep is fully stretched...

No dude. I'll re-iterate: 

On 12/8/2020 at 2:44 PM, bdckr said:

When the forearm is pronated (and elbow extended), the biceps is stretched out

 

15 hours ago, DAVE101 said:

 "stretched when fully pronated"

Supinated and bent elbow leads to more tears.

[mfin77]

1 hour ago, DAVE101 said:

No dude. I'll re-iterate: 

 

Supinated and bent elbow leads to more tears.

Thats what I thought,  thanks 

[bdckr]

16 hours ago, mfin77 said:

Now I’m  confused, if you start the lift in a position with the palm facing away from the body (supinate) your bicep is fully stretched and this is what leads to tears.  Is this correct? 

It isn't the stretching that leads to tears.  It's the maximal contraction that leads to tears.

1. Every joint has a normal range of motion (ROM).  Normal for that joint and normal for that person.

2. Muscle tears almost always happen within that normal ROM.

3. When a muscle tears within the normal ROM, it's because it is contracting hard enough to tear itself.

The important qualifier is "normal" ROM.  Some people might have a previous injury that shortens their normal ROM.  For example, @temmmeeee mentioned earlier that he can't fully straighten his elbow.  If his loss of ROM is a result of a previous biceps/brachialis injury, then forcing it into full extension outside  his normal ROM (past what he can normally do) could result in a biceps or brachialis tear without either muscle contracting.  However, if a tear develops in the ROM that is normal for him, the muscle is tearing itself trying to contract against a resistance that it can't manage.

It's possible to tear a muscle anywhere within a normal ROM.  And it might seem like it's happening when a muscle is "stretched out" because it's basically an unsuccessful eccentric contraction, and the muscle is lengthening as it tears.  But it's the contraction of the muscle that's causing the tear.

In the case of the biceps, actually stretching it out (maximum stretch is elbow extended, forearm pronated) limits its ability to contract hard enough to tear itself.   If you have a hard time remembering which position (supination/pronation) goes with which (shortened/stretched), the easiest way is to just look at your own body.  Elbow full extended, hand straight in front of you, and look at your bicep.  You can easily see the end of your biceps near the crease of your elbow shorten/lengthen  as you supinate/pronate.

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by bdckr

[FrankD]

1 hour ago, WestSlope said:

I wonder if anyone hurt their bicep with the FBBC Jug in training or completing in KK 2018.

I was at the NY venue of KK 2018 and someone either tore or severely sprained their bicep on the FBBC Jug. @Chez @Vinnie Am I remembering that right? 

Edited December 10, 2020 by FrankD

[mfin77]

4 minutes ago, bdckr said:

It isn't the stretching that leads to tears.  It's the maximal contraction that leads to tears.

1. Every joint has a normal range of motion (ROM).  Normal for that joint and normal for that person.

2. Muscle tears almost always happen within that normal ROM.

3. When a muscle tears within the normal ROM, it's because it is contracting hard enough to tear itself.

The important qualifier is "normal" ROM.  Some people might have a previous injury that shortens their normal ROM.  For example, @temmmeeee mentioned earlier that he can't fully straighten his elbow.  If his loss of ROM is a result of a previous biceps/brachialis injury, then forcing it into full extension outside  his normal ROM (past what he can normally do) could result in a biceps or brachialis tear without either muscle contracting.  However, if a tear develops in the ROM that is normal for him, the muscle is tearing itself trying to contract against a resistance that it can't manage.

It's possible to tear a muscle anywhere within a normal ROM.  And it might seem like it's happening when a muscle is "stretched out" because it's basically an unsuccessful eccentric contraction, and the muscle is lengthening as it tears.  But it's the contraction of the muscle that's causing the tear.

In the case of the biceps, actually stretching it out (maximum stretch is elbow extended, forearm pronated) limits its ability to contract hard enough to tear itself.   If you have a hard time remembering which position (supination/pronation) goes with which (shortened/stretched), the easiest way is to just look at your own body.  Elbow full extended, hand straight in front of you, and look at your bicep.  You can easily see the end of your biceps near the crease of your elbow shorten/lengthen  as you supinate/pronate.

 

Thanks. Makes a lot of sense especially the last paragraph. 

[Chez]

1 hour ago, FrankD said:

I was at the NY venue of KK 2018 and someone either tore or severely sprained their bicep on the FBBC Jug. @Chez @Vinnie Am I remembering that right? 

It was vin. But he didn’t need surgery thank god 

[Vinnie]

40 minutes ago, Chez said:

It was vin. But he didn’t need surgery thank god 

I don't know if the injury was that bad.  A month later I competed in Tim Butler's informal comp and was almost at 100 per cent.  But yes, it was the jug.

[Vinnie]

3 hours ago, WestSlope said:

Nice that it didn't linger. Did you compete untrained on that implement? It seems like you aren't a guy that has to own all the competition gear.

Where did it hurt? The only pain I've had in training vertical implements was in the belly of the bicep.

I don't own a jug but I did train on it some at Anton's.  In general, though, I am pretty new to any kind of weight training, and at that point in 2018 I had been involved for less than a year.  I don't even know for sure that it was the bicep but I guess it was in that area.  Based on what people were telling me, if it was a torn bicep, it would have hurt more and healed slower, if at all without surgery.  It was painful enough that I knew I couldn't use that arm much for the rest of the day, and I remember that brushing my teeth was painful because of the need to hold the arm up and move it.  But it got better steadily, and at Tim's comp a month or so later I got PRs on dynamometer, inch pinch, and tips tester and there might have been another implement I am forgetting.  I still felt a twinge for a few weeks after that, but it wasn't much.