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Programming the fat bar deadlift?


Leozinho

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Hello all,

I'm a novice to grip training.  I've dabbled with grippers without much progress.  I'm currently doing Clay Edgin's Rolling Thunder program, which seems to be working.  I'm pretty pleased. However, the slight bend in the elbow while lifting the RT seems to aggravate one of my creaky elbows.  I think I can finish the program without causing real injury, but the RT may not be something I can train on year round.  (I could use a straight arm, but then I can't lift as much.  When it gets heavy, I naturally bend the wrist under and bend the elbow a bit.)

I'm thinking about basing my training on the DOH deadlift on an axle bar.  I previously worked up to a 2.25 BW deadlift on a powerlifting bar with mixed grip.   Nothing special.  But lower back issues caused me to stop deadlifting.  The lighter weights I'll have to use on a fat bar aren't as likely to hurt my back.   The straight arm position isn't likely to jack up my elbow. 

So, what considerations are there when programming the axle deadlift for grip strength compared to regular deadlift?  I had success deadlifting 1x a week using 15 or less singles.   That doesn't seem like enough volume for grip work.  (Running the numbers on Clay's RT program - it's starts with 56 reps per session per arm and I'm doing it twice a week. The numbers decrease as the weights get heavier.)

I'd also do some pinch and sledge work, but the idea is for the axle deadlift to be the main effort.

(As I typed this, I realized I could just use Clay's RT program for the deadlift.  Right?)

(Since I've referenced it a few times, here's Clay talking about his RT program.  There's a link to a spreadsheet in the Youtube description.) 

 

Thanks everyone.

 

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terminal

I have played around with, only a little however, Adam Glass' approach of alternating between sumo stance, conventional stance, thumbless grip, and double overhand grip, also loading the bar some days with 25 pound plates to increase range of motion and other dates with 45 pound plates (normal range of motion) and then mixing up the possible combinations of these variables. The approach intrigues me. He tends to use what I consider a highly intuitive approach to training which will appeal to some and not to others. 

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11 hours ago, terminal said:

I have played around with, only a little however, Adam Glass' approach of alternating between sumo stance, conventional stance, thumbless grip, and double overhand grip, also loading the bar some days with 25 pound plates to increase range of motion and other dates with 45 pound plates (normal range of motion) and then mixing up the possible combinations of these variables. The approach intrigues me. He tends to use what I consider a highly intuitive approach to training which will appeal to some and not to others. 

Thanks for that.  I've read all of Adam's log here, and the fact that he gets most of his training from a fat bar, Saxon bar and the RT has influenced my plan.

However, to state the obvious - I'm not anywhere near his level.  Looks like he works up to heavy singles on the axle (while rotating through different stances and heights)  I don't know if that approach is best for a novice?  It worked for my regular deadlift, but I don't know if that carries over to grip training. Just wondering out loud.  

Thanks.

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Fist of Fury
12 hours ago, Leozinho said:

Hello all,

I'm a novice to grip training.  I've dabbled with grippers without much progress.  I'm currently doing Clay Edgin's Rolling Thunder program, which seems to be working.  I'm pretty pleased. However, the slight bend in the elbow while lifting the RT seems to aggravate one of my creaky elbows.  I think I can finish the program without causing real injury, but the RT may not be something I can train on year round.  (I could use a straight arm, but then I can't lift as much.  When it gets heavy, I naturally bend the wrist under and bend the elbow a bit.)

I'm thinking about basing my training on the DOH deadlift on an axle bar.  I previously worked up to a 2.25 BW deadlift on a powerlifting bar with mixed grip.   Nothing special.  But lower back issues caused me to stop deadlifting.  The lighter weights I'll have to use on a fat bar aren't as likely to hurt my back.   The straight arm position isn't likely to jack up my elbow. 

So, what considerations are there when programming the axle deadlift for grip strength compared to regular deadlift?  I had success deadlifting 1x a week using 15 or less singles.   That doesn't seem like enough volume for grip work.  (Running the numbers on Clay's RT program - it's starts with 56 reps per session per arm and I'm doing it twice a week. The numbers decrease as the weights get heavier.)

I'd also do some pinch and sledge work, but the idea is for the axle deadlift to be the main effort.

(As I typed this, I realized I could just use Clay's RT program for the deadlift.  Right?)

(Since I've referenced it a few times, here's Clay talking about his RT program.  There's a link to a spreadsheet in the Youtube description.) 

 

Thanks everyone.

 

It's two completely different exercises. They are not even remotely close to the same. When you're training thick bar you're training your grip, not your back and legs. That only becomes a factor when your grip has become very strong and if your full body strength isn't where it supposed to be.

You generally want more TUT with grip training. The muscles in the forearm and hands responds better to that. If you did the same TUT for deadlifts you would probably get injured, if you could even do it without dying :D

As with all exercises you need to experiment and see what works best for you. But generally speaking, more TUT, i.e higher reps and holds are better for grip strength. Speed work and heavy negatives also of course, when you want to peak your strength.

It's good to have strong arms, not just the forearms but biceps and shoulder strength is important. Tricep strength for healthy arms as well.

If you want to be stronger at the axle you obviously need to increase your regular deadlifts as well. That will make it a lot easier to progress.

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climber511

Adam is a thinking gripster.  Hard to go wrong following his approach with appropriate loading.  I'm not a time under tension or repetition fan.  5 is high rep for me on grip - more singles than anything - working up to a max.  For Axle use the power rack or boxes to do more without a lot of low back loading.  I'm a believer that every muscle from the elbow down is critical to strong hands.  I still think wrist curls. reverse wrist curls and levering are the key in the beginning - maybe more important than anything else at the start.  A lot of grip is technique - way more than most people think - that and learning to recruit muscles better.  

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Mikael Siversson
On 8/12/2020 at 12:41 PM, terminal said:

I have played around with, only a little however, Adam Glass' approach of alternating between sumo stance, conventional stance, thumbless grip, and double overhand grip, also loading the bar some days with 25 pound plates to increase range of motion and other dates with 45 pound plates (normal range of motion) and then mixing up the possible combinations of these variables. The approach intrigues me. He tends to use what I consider a highly intuitive approach to training which will appeal to some and not to others. 

Keep in mind that using smaller diameter plates and not securing them tightly as .... makes the DO axle much (and I do mean much) easier than pulling with tightly secured full diameter plates. Better to use full size plates (tightly secured) and stand on something to increase the length of the pull.

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On 8/16/2020 at 3:13 AM, Mikael Siversson said:

Keep in mind that using smaller diameter plates and not securing them tightly as .... makes the DO axle much (and I do mean much) easier than pulling with tightly secured full diameter plates. Better to use full size plates (tightly secured) and stand on something to increase the length of the pull.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

Out of curiosity, what makes the loose plates so much easier?  

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Ricochet
11 minutes ago, Leozinho said:

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

Out of curiosity, what makes the loose plates so much easier?  

Loose(r) Plates = More Freedom for them to Spin = Thus Mimicking the Rotation of a Sleeve/Collar on an Olympic Barbell

Axles are more difficult to lift and control due to their fixed nature; strong rotation; and wider diameter requiring one to recruit more muscles (muscle irradiation).

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glenn_the_hunter
On 8/16/2020 at 8:13 PM, Mikael Siversson said:

Keep in mind that using smaller diameter plates and not securing them tightly as .... makes the DO axle much (and I do mean much) easier than pulling with tightly secured full diameter plates. Better to use full size plates (tightly secured) and stand on something to increase the length of the pull.

Thanks for the tip,

Are locking collars usually enough to secure them? Or are you adding something else?

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On 8/16/2020 at 6:13 AM, Mikael Siversson said:

Keep in mind that using smaller diameter plates and not securing them tightly as .... makes the DO axle much (and I do mean much) easier than pulling with tightly secured full diameter plates. Better to use full size plates (tightly secured) and stand on something to increase the length of the pull.

I'm not arguing that it's any easier/harder, but note that the smaller the plates make it spin easier due to the smaller moment of inertia. The larger diameter plates you use, the longer it takes to spin.

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4 hours ago, glenn_the_hunter said:

Thanks for the tip,

Are locking collars usually enough to secure them? Or are you adding something else?

I use Ivanko spin lock collars. They get plenty tight. Btw, I do about 4-5% less with tight collars, using the same plates.

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Mikael Siversson

One unfortunate result of this is that results in the axle on Grip. org are not fully comparable to each other. It would be good if organisers took notice of this as its not rocket science to use full size plates and use quality collars tightened as hard as it gets, not just tight but as tight as you can. The training effect is much better as well (but only for the first rep lol) so that's a bonus for doing it the hard way.

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